SPOILER Obi-Wan Kenobi Ep. 1-2 Discussion

This whole contradiction talk is nonsense. You guys are taking it way too literal.

Obi-Wan just wanted to keep that Jedi away from Luke, to protect him.

 

Unreasonable or not. It's still an assumption. You're guessing as to the context of a statement and calling it contradictory. It's an educated guess, but not one that's supported by what's actually presented.

When people with magical abilities are actively being hunted, yes, I believe it does. As Owen states it, Obi-Wan believes Luke will begin "showing". If the wrong person sees Luke 'show', then what? He needs to learn control in order to hide. Just as Obi is hiding. Just as he advises Nari to hide.

I'm not saying that's the correct interpretation. I'm just connecting the two scenes in a way so that they reinforce one another rather than disagree.

 

The way I saw what Obi-Wan said to the other Jedi is something like:

‘This is not your fight, too many innocent Jedi died because of the incompetence of us at the top tables. Go away, hide your powers, and get to live a normal life.’

 

I'm "not ready" to buy Ewan is 10 years out from being Alec Guinness (or more like 5 if you factor in Rebels).

I'm "not ready" to buy Luke and Leia were about 55 or less in The Force Awakens/Last Jedi really either (both coming off closer to Dooku's age than Qui-Gon's to me and he'd he a little older).

I am ready to buy that I'll get over it (or already have) and that the little gap here doesn't slightly matter in comparison or really at all anyway but I did grow up with the likes of Judge Reinhold, John Travolta, and Judd Nelson as go to high schoolers and never blinked at about a 26 year old Mark Hamill playing a whiny teen.

I think my first real "took me out of it a minute" related to age was Winona Ryder showing up as Spock's mother in Star Trek 2009 but even that wasn't a show stopping issue, just a personal point of view one of "she's older than I am (okay just slightly to be fair) and I don't even have a kid yet at all much less one that is already a Commander in Starfleet" thing.
To be fair to me, wouldn't Spock be at least mid 30's aka about Ryder's age in real life at the time?

 

Let’s be honest here. This is a show shoe horned into a time period I don’t think GL ever envisioned having to create perfect logical connections to with every line from the OT. There will be some things that are forced because this series needs to have a plot. It may stretch the meaning of lines from the OT but so long as nothing is OBVIOUSLY contradicted I’m just going to go with it in the name of entertainment.

I think the “consistency” bar some people hold this franchise to is frankly ridiculous given that this is sci-if fantasy fiction. It ain’t Shakespeare and it ain’t historical non-fiction.

 

That just means there's an absence of a contradiction to what a Jedi would ordinarily mean when they say they intend to train someone [in the ways of the Force, as a jedi] . It's unreasonable to assume that means anything other than that. It was discussed at the end of Revenge Of The Sith. They replayed the scene of Obi-Wan promising to train the boy (Anakin). Owen touches on Obi Wan's track record on training Jedi and Obi-Wan doesn't try to argue with him that he's assuming what context he's taking "training" in.



If the intent was to train Luke not to be Jedi, and not to display any ability why wait until he discovers them himself and starts "showing"?

What would be the point of revealing this new definition of "training the boy" three episodes in to a six part series when we know it will be Obi Wan's intent, and has been for some time, to train Luke as Jedi by the time of A New Hope.

I don't think it's necessary to make Kenobi's two stated positions agree with each other. It's a perfectly valid depiction for a character to not necessarily do what the say all the time. Nobody is perfect. It'll work out. We already know it does.

 

I respectfully disagree. First off, Obi-wan could have been EVEN MORE HARSH to the wandering Jedi than he was. Think about it. This yahoo was carelessly putting him -- and more importantly, Luke -- in grave danger by coming to Tattooine with the Inquistors on his tail. What better way to tell this guy to 'get lost' than to tell him 'the time of the Jedi is over'? Why say ANYTHING that would give this Jedi hope? This was NOT the time to be 'rallying the Jedi troops' in any way, shape, or form. The only thing to do was to give him some prudent advice that might save his life. (Sadly, it didn't.)

On the other hand, Obi-wan's entire life purpose at this point is to protect Luke. He probably made a comment to Owen about training the boy in the future when he first delivered the baby to them. Obi-wan's desire to 'connect' with the boy is as realistic as Owen's equally strong desire to keep Ben as far away from Luke as possible.

I do think it's understandable how demoralized Obi-wan is. All the Jedi he knew and loved -- comrades as well as younglings were all murdered. At the time, he believed it included his best friend, Anakin, who he, himself, was responsible for killing. At a time like this, his last shred of remaining hope is with Qui-gon --- who frustratingly he remains unsuccessful at reaching -- and a little ten-year old boy.

 

Of course it’s not unreasonable… because that is precisely what he sets out to do in ANH. Anyone who doesn’t think ObiWan intends to train Luke as a Jedi is thinking to hard… we’ve seen episode 4, we have the answers to the test folks!

 

Forgot the best part

 

After watching episodes 1 and 2 several times, I realized there is no after credit art as seen in previous Disney+ shows. I wonder will we get an art of Obi-Wan Kenobi book?

 

Warning, multiple questions here:

Reva sensed that Obi- Wan didn't know that Darth Vader was still alive.

Did she read Obi-Wan's mind?

How did she know?

That scene in particular reminds me when Darth Vader pried into Luke's mind in the Emperor's throne room, and realized that he has a sister.

Reva is certainly not as powerful as Darth Vader, at the end of Kenobi episode 2, Reva seems attuned in the force, so much so, she manages to pry into Obi-Wan's thoughts and know that he didn't know, How was she able to read into Obi-Wan's thoughts and extract this information?

How does Reva know that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader? How did Reva figure it out?

Is she a disciple of Darth Vader? Is Reva Darth Vader's Hand as Mara Jade was for the Emperor?

My theory is: Ahsoka Tano shared a bond with Anakin Skywalker, he was her mentor. Ahsoka learned of Darth Vader's existence (Star Wars Rebels' season 2 episode 18: Shroud of Darkness) and that he is indeed Anakin Skywalker. Reva appears to be a youngling in the Jedi temple ( not confirmed as of yet) from the first episode's opening scenes of Kenobi. Anakin Skywalker was a well renowned Jedi Master in the temple, so Reva should know him from being a youngling in training. They must certainly have crossed paths, and if she were to cross paths with Darth Vader later on, how would she not know?

Is Reva Darth Vader's new apprentice?


Anywho, Thrawn and Tarkin both figured out that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader, yet they're not Jedi or force-sensitive( I'm not entirely sure about Thrawn).

Final question: did Dr. Aphra figure out that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader since she also worked with him closely?

 

We've seen numerous examples of Force-sensitve people 'reading minds' over the years. Off the top of my head, that includes Darth Vader, Luke, Leia (both in the OT and as a 10-year old), and Rey and Kylo in the STs.

That's an intriguing part of the story the show is telling us. I suspect its wrapped up in Reva's origin story.

 

What’s ‘unreasonable’ is a matter of perspective. If it’s relative to what story is currently being told, then that’s what’s more important to the narrative.

You’ll have to refresh my memory on that note. I only recall Obi-Wan stating “I will take the child and watch over him.”

Owen doesn’t reject Obi-Wan’s gift of a toy ship because he’s afraid of ‘Jedi training’. He’s afraid of what Obi-Wan represents: “There's more to life than your farm, Owen. He needs to see that. There's a whole galaxy out there.” Obi-Wan brings with him the threat of luring Luke away into a larger dangerous world. He’s a risk. “Anakin is dead, Ben, and I won't let you make the same mistake twice.”

And that’s the crux of this series: The fear that immobilizes us into inaction and the courage it takes to overcome it. Owen is crippled by it and so is Obi-Wan. “I can't leave the boy.” “This isn't about the boy, and you know it!”…“You couldn’t save Anakin, but you can save her?” “And what if I can’t?”

Obi-Wan has lost faith in himself as a Jedi. Is it really so hard to believe that he actually harbors no design to guide Luke to the Jedi path at this point, but to only keep him safe? To "watch over him"?

Isn’t that question apropos regardless? I mean, aren’t Jedi supposed to start their training when they’re like toddlers? If the intent was to make a new Jedi, then why wait? Right?

Could be that they’re trying out this new experimental writing technique referred to covertly as a ‘character arc’. Now hear me out, because this gets pretty wild, but here’s how this whacky idea works.

You see, at the beginning of a story when you first introduce your protagonist, you establish them to be in one particular state of mind and world view. Typically a mental or philosophical place that indicates a flaw or indecision. And then, through numerous influential experiences encountered throughout their journey, they arrive at a different more evolved station of perspective. The growth exhibited between those two distinct positions is like an arc.

Obi-Wan starts the series off not intending to train or aid any Jedi. Just hide and survive. He’s lost his faith. He’s lost his confidence. And, because of the events that unfold, he will reverse that perspective by the end. He will regain his faith and purpose. He will decide that the Jedi should continue and will one day train Luke when the time is right. Well, that’s my guess anyhow.

So you made special effort to bring this up . . . just to bring it up? It isn't there intentionally to be emblematic of the underline theme? It's just there to be there? Hey, fair enough

 

I finally saw both episodes, and I have thoughts!

This show is a weird thing to me. After literal years of speculation and hope, it's finally here! It's also the one show that was announced a while back that I'm actually excited about - The Mandalorian was a blank slate, BOBF had apathy and a moderate dislike of the character going against it, and things like Ahsoka and Lando were in the "oh cool, I'm excited I guess" category. But Kenobi...Kenobi was and is different.

I've been planning a Kenobi trilogy in my head for YEARS. I'm not joking when I say I've been working on it mentally at least since Summer 2016. (Although the first seeds of this story were planted in 2014/2015.*) I can remember working on a scene in the final movie, between Maul and Kenobi on the sands of Tatooine. Maul was going to title drop the movie (I think at the time was "Ghosts of the Old Republic") before meeting his end at Kenobi's hand. What a funny thing it was to see an alternate scenario play out roughly nine months later on Rebels...anyways, I've had this story for Obi-Wan in my head for years now, and now, this new canon thing comes in and has to find a place to live with it. My best impossible comparison is like if you had an imaginary friend that was just like a sibling. You did everything with the imaginary friend...and then one day you gained a real stepsibling. It may be what you always wanted, but never really how you imagined or pictured, and you just have to live with it and grow to accept it.
I'd like to say I did a good job at keeping my assumptions about what a Kenobi show should be like in check though.

Anyways, onto the main thoughts!

The good:
The music is very good and well timed. There are important scenes with no music and important scenes with music. Bravo team!

The visuals! In the one episode we were on Tatooine, it felt more alive and varied than the majority of the episodes of BOBF. Maybe it was where the story was located, but I felt the metropolitan (well, as metropolitan as Tatooine can get), isolated, and beaten down areas of the planet. It felt wide and varied and still lonely in a way, because our character was lonely. (Not alone, but certainly lonely.)
It was also good to see Alderaan again. The city landscape looked like partially polished CGI on my tv; but considering that this is partially in the prequel era, I'm chalking that up to intentional design rather than shoddy CGI. Episode 2's city aka Neo-Gotham was a fun Neo-Noir/Cyberpunk shoutout. I'm excited to see where we go next.
EDIT: Some of the shots in these two episodes were beautiful and I can't wait for more.

The characters! Obi-Wan is appropriately brooding but still witty, Leia is appropriately sassy, and Bail is appropriately a good father. (I haven't seen a work with Jimmy isn't a good father, and I won't start now! Brooklyn Nine-Nine does toe the line though.**) Third Sister is the only let down, and it's more because this she's another women in a long line of on-screen women of color who are/were associated with the Dark Side and antagonists. I have something of an ongoing list mentally, and it's not a pretty sight. As a character though, Reva is fine. She's like a thug. A smart thug, but a thug all the same. I like her brutality and malicious cruelty. It makes the victories all the sweeter. The conman was fun too. I went "Ay, Kingo!" since my friend was live-texting me her reactions to Eternals the other day and it's the same actor I believe.

That gets into the bad of this show:
Leia. Leia isn't a bad character, but every time she runs away and people are after her, they get stopped by things that really shouldn't stop an adult for as long as they do. It feels like this is supposed to give the kids the illusion that they can escape someone chasing them, when I personally think it'd be far more impactful (and scarier) and time-efficient to cut those chases down by a good minute or two. Maybe it's just playing to a demographic I'm no longer a part of, but I can't really appreciate these chase scenes anymore. Granted, I found them far more interesting as a whole than the BOBF chase scene, but that's not a high bar...

Inquisitors. The Inquisitors frankly aren't that scary to me, but they haven't been in a long time. We've now seen two Grand Inquisitors go down in the first major act of their respective series, and it's going to fall to Vader to pick up the pieces...like in Rebels...and Jedi: Fallen Order (at least that happened at the end)...and now here.

Reva in particular. In addition to the mental list above (which is a larger Lucasfilm problem), I also keep unfairly comparing her to Trilla aka Second Sister in my head. (And Azula, but that's because Azula is one of the best female villains of this archetype out there.) Where Trilla was manipulative and calm, Reva is malicious and impatient. Where Trilla was scary nearly every time she came on-screen due to the power difference we knew and felt*** while Reva isn't deemed a credible threat by her own allies - she's only scary because Obi-Wan doesn't want to fight anymore, not because she's an actual threat to him. Both are able to get into our protagonists' heads, but I we'll see how long that lasts. Unfortunately, I have a feeling they're going to have a similar ending, and I'm not pleased.

There's also the problem that so far, our victories aren't coming from our heroes outsmarting the villains, but the villain's own infighting and incompetence. It isn't satisfying to see Reva lose Kenobi because of the fact that the Grand Inquisitor stops her to take credit. It's far less satisfying to see Kenobi escape due to sheer luck caused by the villain's own infighting rather than his own ingenuity. Luck can win the day, yes, but I'd rather it not be at the cost of the effectiveness of the villains. *Insert Azula comparison here*




The interesting:
The theme song reminds me of the swinging theme in Insomniac's Spider-Man, particularly the first few horn/brass beats.

I don't mind the look of the Inquisitors as much as I thought I would.


I CALLED IT! I SO CALLED THE LEIA KIDNAPPING ARC! Well, to a degree...from my 2020 "If you were in charge of Lucasfilm" post, Emphasis Mine:

The similarities end there though. As you can see, I had Luke kidnapped too, and he and Leia would sort of be talking to each other through cells and help each other escape. (Don't worry, I had Kenobi wipe their minds of the adventure at the end of things. He'd mention that the bond was more or less masked though, and it'd only be a matter of time until it revealed itself naturally.) They'd also be helped by the ghost of Padme, and I also had Maul behind the kidnappings as a way to find Force Sensitive children to create his own army to confront the Inquistors. I had Obi-Wan ultimately fail at saving Luke and Leia during this movie, which would have led to the Organas asking the Empire for assistance, and Vader being the one sent to rescue Leia alongside Bail with the delicious irony of neither knowing the other's relationship with Leia.

Clearly, that's NOT what's going to happen, but I'm very proud of myself for the barebones idea that were in common!



Overall, I'm pleasantly surprised and pretty optimistic about the future of the show, but this is turning into a case where I think this story - at least so far - would have been better as a trilogy of movies, as that would have given us more time overall at this rate. THAT BEING SAID, the arcs certainly wouldn't have been the same, and we probably wouldn't have spent as much time in each place as we did or will. Let's see what Wednesday has in store for us.



*The first major scenes I planned in my head were for a half-flashback/half-present time first movie. The flashbacks would cover Obi-Wan's mission to protect Satine. The two things that stood out in my brain are a scene where Satine falls into a pit and Kenobi jumps after her, and the camera circles the two as they fall and try to reach out to each other. (This would later be edited into a scene where Present-Day Kenobi is using the Force to stop a cave-in where he is currently.) The second scene would be Kenobi meeting Satine after a a traumatic event, helping her to her feeling, and guiding her to safety. The first scene is set to Aluna George & DJ Snake's "You Know You Like It," as that was the song I was listening to when the Falling Scene came to my mind.

**He's not a bad father to Amy Santaigo, but his and his wife's over-competitive parenting style and blatant favortism certainly isn't healthy.

***This something a videogame can get away with that a movie doesn't really get to outside of a few instances - letting us experience how comparatively strong or weak our character is.

 

No. Jedi train gifted individuals to be Jedi themselves. They've been doing this for millennia. It's what Jedi are expected to do and it's what you expect them to mean when they state their intent to train a potential new Jedi. Your supposing that there is a new, previously upspoken of or secret policy of training young people to not be Jedi, of which there has never been any precedent or any indication that Kenobi has changed towards the Jedi policy of training youngsters to be JEdi

But Obi-Wan telling Owen that Luke needs to be trained because there is a bigger world out there that he's going to live in is at odds with your supposition that the context of Obi-Wan's desire to train him is to lead a normal life. Owen is warning about leading Luke down the same path his father was taken down (becoming a Jedi). If Obi-Wan doesn't intend that and his expressed desire to train him is in a different "context", then this is the point that Kenobi tells him. "It's not like that Owen. I don't intend to lead Luke down that path. Just show him how to control his ability so that he can live a normal life..." But Obi-Wan does not explain the context. He has no argument for Owen when he points out that training Luke's father ended in disaster. He does not put Owen straight about his assumption that he wants to train Luke like he trained his father.

Owen is preventing Obi Wan from training Luke. If Obi Wan intends to train Luke not to be a Jedi and not show his ability then why is Owen preventing this. Isn't that what Owen wants.

I don't appreciate this tone. I'm pointing out that we are two episodes into a three episode series and this entirely new concept, policy and desire of Kenobi's to train Luke to not be a Jedi, to not show any abilities and to lead a normal life has so far not been revealed. It's just a theory that you've proposed in order for "The fight is done.... we lost ...The time of the Jedi is over...." to not be considered at odds with "The boy must be trained...we discussed this....". So if it's an arc of Kenobi starting with this "training to not be a Jedi" policy and finishing with him arriving back at the default Jedi position of training Luke to be a Jedi as soon as his Uncle allows it (or can't do anything to stop it) that we found Kenobi at in 1977 and which we left him at in 2005, it's an "arc" that only covers half of this short mini series. Arcs usually arc over the storyline. The arc begin when the character is introduced. Especially when it's an established character and this arc is incongruent with his history and his associations.

Like in TLJ, Johnson didn't wait until halfway through the movie to introduce the idea that Luke has lost faith in the Jedi order, its legacy and his own legend.


The reason I brought it up was I found it interesting and stimulating. Is that ok? I'm not bringing it up because there shouldn't be a contradiction or that it's a problem with the writing.

It's another case of high ranking Jedi doing one thing and saying another which we saw all through the prequels and to some extent in the OT. It happens. It's completely valid for Kenobi to say one thing about Luke but tell Organa another thing about Leia, and tell that surviving Jedi another thing entirely about the fight being over and the Jedi being done. Obi Wan clearly has an attachment to Luke. Why wouldn't he? It happens. His head is telling him that the odds are stacked against the surviving Jedi. They will be found and annihilated if they try to group together. And they will be forced to conceal their power if they attempt to blend in to the general public, effectively getting rid of the Jedi by attrition. But he also has attachment to Luke because he's "watched over" him these past ten years he's Anakin's son. The pupil he failed and believed to be dead at the beginning of this series. The son of the chosen one supposed to bring balance to the force. The subject of a prophesy that may yet still be fulfilled by the son, or the father. Yet it was chasing this prophesy that lead to the Jedi order's destruction. It would be highly conspicuous if there were no detectable contradictions in anyone's words or actions regarding these events.

The series even highlights Obi-Wan's lopsided attitude toward Anakin's offspring. And shows Kenobi realising that Leia reminds him of her parents. Kenobi only seems to find the time and the will to help Leia because Owen is telling him to keep away from Luke and it looks like it might be the last chance he'll get at some kind of redemption. One last fight.

 

Sorry interrupting.
Just a few good episode 2 shots. I really like the new city. Neon and dark. Still Mandalorian in general was more captivating.

 

If Reva was a padawan/Jedi at the time of the purge, it's possible that she learned that Obi-Wan was given the task to destroy Darth Vader. And since she knows that Vader is not dead, and Kenobi has not attempted to finish the job he started on Mustafar, she might assume that Obi-Wan does not know that he failed in his task.

I'm still a bit skeptical that Darth Vader is not a name known to anyone who passed through Tatooine in the past ten years and hasn't trickled through to Kenobi's ears by this time. Unless Kenobi has truly tried to cut himself off from everything and succeeded, like Luke did. But that seems unlikely.

--- Double Post Merged, May 31, 2022, Original Post Date: May 31, 2022 ---

I like the inquisitors. This is my first exposure to them.

This is what you get when you have a cultural revolution like the Jedi purge. When you decide that the perceived intellectual and/or spiritual elite should be erased and arbitrarily replaced. You get amateurs and charlatans raised high above their true level and put in place of all that experience and knowledge that was thrown out.

 

What if these kids are the people Fakejedi is sending Obi-Wan to. Maybe even more interesting if they will have to confront Reva later on.

Will he train him to be a Jedi or just hoping to train him in the ways of the force to finally confront the emperor and his right hand.
Quigon obiously was in err believing Anakin was the Chosen One because Anakin is dead (at least that's what Obiwan thinks). but maybe he wasn't completely wrong and Luke (or Leia) is the Cosen One. Than he needs to be there and train him (if signs of the force appear). In case it's not Luke Leia is in good hands with the Organas and they can call Obiwan if Leia starts lifting things by the force.
But somewhat disillusioned as he is, he truly thinks the war is lost and the days of the Jedi(order) are over and it's better for them to go completely into hiding.
I don't see a real contradiction there.

Because no one knows (should know) who Darth Vader is.
It was an educated guess.

 

Telling existing Jedi that their time is over and to give up being a Jedi in order to live a normal life, while beseeching Luke's Uncle to let him be trained as a Jedi, instead of leaving him to live the normal life that the Uncle wants for him, is contradictory.