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SPECULATION Obi-Wan Kenobi's Legacy in the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Obi-Wan Solo, Dec 6, 2016.

  1. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    One of the most important, indeed crucial, characters in the Skywalkers saga is Obi-Wan Kenobi. His involvement in the events of the PT and the OT have been of pivotal importance.
    And quite deservedly Obi-Wan is also one of the most loved and admired characters by fans as well and his involvement in the story of the PT and the OT trilogies has been a prominent one. It would be very strange to me at least, if there is no Kenobi involvement in this new trilogy as well. Thus I thought I should start a thread about Obi-Wan's potential involvement in the Sequel Trilogy.

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    When one looks at the trilogies as a whole it is evident that the role of Kenobi in the Skywalkers saga and his involvement with them is a crucially important one and it would be narratively satisfying to see in this new trilogy not only how the legacy of Anakin Skywalker continues to influence the Skywalkers (and the galaxy), and I believe that it will be somewhat strange if Kenobi is not again somehow involved with the Skywalkers in this trilogy as well and not play a pivotal role in the events one way or another.

    We know that the new young Skywalker in this trilogy is Han and Leia's son Ben, (who calls himself Kylo Ren) and in TFA we find him to believe himself as continuing the legacy of his grandfather Darth Vader.
    It is not a random coincidence that the new Skywalker's name is Ben, a clear reference to Ben Kenobi. In fact, I would argue that that in-universe homage will end up having a very interesting significance going forth.

    It is still unclear if Ben/Kylo is at present (TFA) aware that in the end Vader returned to the Light side and became again Anakin Skywalker, but one thing seems clearly set up so far both in TFA and also in the novel Bloodline, is that Vader's shadow and his legacy is still looming large in the fate of the Skywalkers and the galaxy.
    ----

    One of the two "MacGuffins" set up in TFA (the other being the map to the location of Luke Skywalker) was Anakin's blue jedi lightsaber which was taken away from him on Mustafar by his teacher Obi-Wan who defeated him in a dramatic way and that lightsaber 20 years later was handed back by Kenobi to Anakin's son, Luke. Luke lost that lightsaber on Bespin (together with his hand) and Rey found the very same lightsaber in a wooden chest (which interestingly looks remarkably similar to the wooden chest Obi-Wan took the lightsaber out to give to Luke in ANH) and touching the lightsaber Rey had a Force vision in which she also heard Obi-Wan directly addressing her, which is the only appearance Kenobi had in any form so far in this trilogy. In turn, Rey after dueling Kylo Ren, and having defeated him and leaving him injured, took the saber. TFA ended with Rey finding Luke on Ahch-To and handing him the lightsaber that was Luke's and his father Anakin before than. A lightsaber which was the MacGuffin not just in this 1st episode of the new trilogy, but if we look back, in fact has served as a sort of "Force baton" that seems to have always involved Kenobi and a Skywalker (as the images I inclose below show).

    It is very intriguing that contrasted to Obi-Wan's prominent importance in the PT and his pivotal role in the OT, in the first instalment of this new trilogy there are just two little hints at Obi-Wan. Interestingly both those little nods are subtle associations with Kylo Ren whose given name was revealed in a most dramatic way to be Ben (obviously named after Ben Kenobi) and the other one was the voice of Kenobi addressing Rey by name in her Force vision. Thus, an intriguing parallel is made between the two new ST characters. One is named after Ben Kenobi and we learn that when Han his father calls out his name. And Ben Kenobi calls Rey by her name in her Force vision.

    And these are the only two obvious connections with that pivotal and important character.

    However, if we look more closely, there are many visual and story parallels in the TFA that may actually be hidden "easter eggs" that allude to Kenobi being present even if he is seemingly absent.

    Below I present several visual parallels that I would speculate may point that Rey may in fact be a Kenobi descendant and that her role in the Skywalkers saga may yet be a continuation of the crucial role Obi-Wan played first as a mentor to Anakin Skywalker, then as a teacher to Luke and now in the beginning of this new trilogy we saw how Rey also got involved in the grand Skywalkers saga and in one way or another her relationship with Anakin Skywalker's grandson Ben is going to definetely be a very interesting one. Obi-Wan believed that he failed his apprentice Anakin and felt deep guilt and sadness that he couldn't prevent his apprentice's fall to the dark side. Would Rey Kenobi be able to help bring Anakin's grandson back to the Light and be able to thus (figuratively speaking) finish what her grandfather started?

    Obi-Wan has had a pivotal role in the Skywalkers saga and I believe that it will be natural that one way or another Obi-Wan Kenobi plays an important role in this trilogy as well. Even if you don't agree with my speculation that Rey is a descendant of Obi-Wan Kenobi, which at this point is indeed only a speculation, please do feel free to discuss here what role (if any) do you think Ben Kenobi will play in this 3rd trilogy of the Skywalkers saga. Will he appear? Will he be mentioned? Will his involvement with the Skywalkers play any role in how things will unfold?
    Or if you happen to agree with me that Rey may indeed be a Kenobi, do feel free to discuss here how you think her involvement in the Skywalkers story will develop going forth.


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    #1 Obi-Wan Solo, Dec 6, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
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  2. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    Great post, huge Kenobi fan. I don't think that Rey is a descendent of Kenobi. My theory is that Ben/Kylo will still be conflicted in ep8 and Ob1 will appear to him as a force ghost. Ob1 might be able to pull him out of the dark side with the help of Rey; Subsequently, saving her from Snoke. Ob1 can call to Ben/Kylo to bring him back to the light. I believe that Rey is a Solo. If she is a Kenobi, or a Skywalker fine, I can't wait to discover how this will all play out. My cards are on her being a Solo. Kenobi had a relationship with Duchess Satine in TCW its possible that he may have found someone on Tatooine as well. After reading the first couple of chapters of the Ahsoka novel. Ahsoka was hiding because of order 66. Jedi were outlaws to be hunted down through out the galaxy. How could Kenobi go on adventures as well. So he must have found someone on Tatooine for your theory to be remotely plausible.
     
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  3. PrincessLeiaCB3

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    Amazing post @Obi-Wan Solo ! I definitely see the case for having Rey as a Kenobi descendant. However, I'm thinking how the Story Group can come out with a satisfactory explanation of her origin being linked to Obi-Wan. Unfortunately, most of the casual SW fans are not aware of the amazing Obi-Wan backstory - her involvement with Satine, etc - so they might get lost in trying to understand how the old hermit could have any family left. Though, if we go back to the OT, at first we heard about Anakin, and then about him being Darth Vader thus father of Luke, and obviously a lot of questions might have arisen at that particular moment - "but wait! How? When?".
     
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  4. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    Not sure about Rey being related to Kenobi, ok with it if she is, I think it would be cool, but everything else, yeah, Obi-wan is one of the most important characters throughout and this represents his legacy as well in many ways.
     
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  5. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    I am rather puzzled by the insistence of many fans that everything must be explained. It really needn't. The only explanation needed is very short in fact. The audience just needs to know you are a descendant of a great jedi who was closely linked with us the Skywalkers and now you are by the will of the Force back into our mess.

    Everything that needs to be told in the movie to Rey (who is sort of a stand in for us the audience) is: "Rey, you are the descendant of a great jedi. He was my teacher and the teacher of my father before me. He trained my father Anakin Skywalker who later fell to the Dark Side and became Darth Vader. In fact Obi-Wan Kenobi was the one who many years ago handed me that very same lightsaber and thus my journey from a farmboy on Tatooine changed forever and my first steps in becoming a jedi began. And now the will of the Force has brought you to me handing that very same lightsaber back to me!"

    Some more explanation is needed about how she ended up on Jakku (which we do need to know) and that's it.

    People keep demanding detailed information that is really not decisive or important to the story at hand.

    In the OT Kenobi said very little about Luke's father, nothing about his mother, he just mentioned in passing "Clone Wars", etc. without us knowing (or needing to know!) anything further. We simply did not needed the particulars about who met whom and how and when exactly. I think that the preoccupation of knowing all details comes with the way the PT was set up where we see on screen every single encounter of anakin with everybody and stuff like the unnecessary and very cringe dialogue such as "Are you an angel".
    Details about the background of how and what can be given in books, comics, Kenobi stand alone(s), even in Rebels (I see that Maul seems to have a portrait in Satine in a newest episode of Rebels! Could someone who watches the show please tell us why does Maul have a Satine Kryze portrait. And her reappearance in canon is I would say intriguing!)

    The story at hand is Rey discovers she has magical powers. Her destiny seems to involve the Skywalkers and in particular one Skywalker (Kylo/Ben). Events bring her to a teacher who can show her the ways of the Force. That is the story.
    Even if she is Luke's daughter (which I don't think she is) we do not need to know about how Luke met her mother and how they made sweet love. Because that is not the story. Luke is no longer the protagonist and if Rey is his daughter the story will shift focus and make the story about Luke and I don't think they want that. Also, I don't see how the dynamic between Kylo and Rey will work if they are cousins. It doesn't make sense for the story we were presented with in TFA and I don't see how the relationship will work...

    The only familial relationship that would have worked if they were related was if they were siblings. That would give the drama of Ben turning to the Dark side because of wanting to protect his sister, and now that she is found he can see the mistake and come back, etc. This is what I thought before I saw the movie last year. But when I saw the movie it became clear that they don't seem to be set up as siblings at all.
    They don't seem to have met and they don't seem to have a familial connection, but there is definetely a connection. No doubt about it.
    If Rey is a Kenobi then that connection is very important as it will tie all the previous 2 trilogies with this one in a very meaningful and satisfying way.

    BUT, even if Rey is not a descendant of Kenobi, then I wonder how is Obi-Wan going to be involved in the Skywalker drama in this trilogy? As a Force ghost advising? But what is his connection to the new protagonist? She already has a teacher - Luke. It seems kind of superfluous to bring in Kenobi as well. And it will be just fan service in a way to have him have this cameo. (Unless Luke has gone mad and someone else really has to step in to advise, but I don't see that.)

    So, I'm sure that Kenobi needs to have a part in this, he is a crucial character in the saga and it makes sense that he does, but I currently am a bit at a loss to imagine what is the dramatic narrative use of having Obi-Wan if he isn't a more meaningful presence than just a wise Force ghost who our new protagonist (Rey) doesn't know and has no connection to. They might as well put Qui-Gon or Yoda to talk to her...Why Kenobi?
    He addresses her directly by name in the vision so I think that is very interesting and perhaps a clue. (Or a red herring).

    So, let me say that I'll be perfectly fine if Rey is not a Kenobi, but the question I'm asking mainly is how will Kenobi be part of the trilogy if he is related and how if he isn't...I think he should have a role, so the question is what and in what capacity...
     
    #5 Obi-Wan Solo, Dec 7, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
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  6. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    My guess is that the ones who demand more explanation about a potential Kenobi origin for Rey are basically us the die-hard fans.

    The more casual fans, or people who like Star Wars but don't really possess a lot of knowledge about the rest of the SW lore, would not actually care as much as some of us who know a great many things about Star Wars.

    It's like I was mentioning yesterday all the potential Easter eggs to be included in Rogue One: you might notice who is a die-hard fan and who is not by their reaction to them when they appear onscreen.
     
    #6 PrincessLeiaCB3, Dec 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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  7. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    Yeah, I expect anyway they explain Rey's heritage will just be through a few lines, whoever she is.
     
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  8. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Sure. Of course. I completely agree. But I was addressing the objection I have seen that claims that the more casual fans and audience will not know about Satine and TCW, etc. But my point is - they (and us really as well) really don't need to know all those details in order to be engaged with the present story at hand which is Kylo and Rey's story and to know enough about Rey descent to continue to be engaged with the story.
    Also, casual fans know who Obi-Wan is surely. That is enough information to have to see the stakes.
    Of course for less casual fans everything has to be within the established continuity and it can be done, (not to mention that with a Kenobi spin off which I'm sure they will make a lot of further information can be added to satisfy that need to know more details) so I don't really see a major issue.

    What needs to be established in this trilogy is, she is or she is not a Skywalker. Then if she is not (which I think is the case) then she is a Kenobi or Palpatine, etc.) and then the game is on as the stakes then become really very high with Kylo/Ben being the last Skywalker and if Rey was Kenobi, great (as I explained that will have a very satisfying payoff), if she is Palpatine - then also good as there is great drama there as well as she will be a descendant of someone very very bad (a possibility which others have convincingly argued for and I can definetely see the merits of that theory) or she is somebody else. Or she is just Rey. I'm not very convinced that it will be as dramatic if she is a completely new ("Random") character that has no ties of any kind though. It could work and I can see the merit of it and could indeed be the story, but something tells me she is very possibly connected somehow to a character of the past and my gut feeling tells me that somebody is Kenobi. (Trevorrow's remark that they view the trilogy as not just 3 films but as a whole together with the previous movies is a clue in my opinion...)

    But, as I said, I'm not married to this theory, and I will be fine with whatever satisfying good story TPTB have for us and I'm not really very interested in Rey's parentage per se, but I'm thinking about what would the most satisfying story as a whole be and I find Rey Kenobi to have the story with the greatest depth and payoff for the story and since last year that has been my #1 Rey parentage theory and this did not change and the more I think about it the more I see those visual and story parallels the more I think that's what's set up.

    My biggest clues are choosing to name Han and Leia's son Ben (which will have very interesting implications if Rey was a Kenobi and yet another way they are linked), some visual and story clues that could be just familiarity callbacks (or not), but most of all - the Kylo and Rey duel in the snow on Starkiller which the more and more closely I look at it the more it is evident that it mirrors the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan on Mustafar and that it looks that was very much intentionally done. :D

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    That Kenobi/Skywalker rift needs to be mended!
     
    #8 Obi-Wan Solo, Dec 7, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
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  9. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    I happen to love the idea that she would be related to him, actually, just not hard on that theory. I like it better than Luke's kid though, I am ok with that, too, if they make it a good story.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 7, 2016 ---
    We never know who Korkie's parents are in the Clone Wars, and die hards would know that, but yes, that wouldn't have to be important. We know he is the nephew of both Satine and Bo-Katan, but we never see any family members. I guess it's possible he is really Satine's kid.
     
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    Obi-Wan is certainly a presence in TFA. my impression (someone correct me if i'm wrong) is that Force ghosts sorta fade away into the Force eventually. it's uncertain whether Luke had any relationship with Obi-Wan post-ROTJ. Ben may be his namesake, but people have commented that the connection there isn't very strong (i think it works in context of the revised OT novelizations, but i can see how it might be potentially puzzling to fans who haven't read that).

    and yes, it's Anakin's lightsaber (and for a short time Luke's), but it's been in the possession of Obi-Wan the longest, so there are a variety of ways that Obi-Wan's exhortation to Rey might be interpreted.

    i'm inclined to believe that nothing about the Forceback is in any way indicative of Rey's parentage. It's about the Force and the history of the battle against the Dark, and about Rey as the new champion of the Light. in this context Obi-Wan reaching out to her makes sense since perhaps he has continued to be a galactic watchdog.

    to me, the Forceback is triggered by a traumatic event: Finn abandoning Rey, which dredges up her previous abandonment. to me that's less about her past than it is about her future--perhaps the whole thing is watchdog Kenobi's way of suggesting (as Maz does literally moments later) that the belonging she seeks is ahead: on this path of the Jedi, in continuing to battle the Dark.

    we don't know if Obi-Wan has any connection past or present to Ben, but since much of Rey's Forceback is wrapped up in her own connection to Ben, it may be that Obi-Wan himself has foreseen their connection or understands their destinies in a particular way.

    as to the Kenobi parentage theory, if the writers can make it work, i'd be okay with that as there is some interesting poetic closure to a Kenobi saving a Skywalker in a meaningful way. Rey could then finish what Obi-Wan started...in a manner of speaking.
     
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  11. AstromechRecords

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    Yeah the dide by side comparisons seem to make it obvious so far.
     
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  12. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    I could of course be dead wrong, and I would love to hear what anyone thinks about my flimsy theory, but the reason I think that Rey is a Solo is to protect her identity from Snoke. Maybe Han and Leia didn't want their daughter to fall to Snoke, so they hid her because of what happened to their son. The way Han looks at her in the Falcon before going to Maz Kanata's fortress/castle, and when Maz ask Han, who is the girl? After watching Collider Movie Talk today Harloff and Campea stated that they changed their minds after watching an early screening of the next episode of Rebels. I saw a clip of the episode and Darth Maul had a shrine of Duchess Satine. They now believe that she maybe Ben Kenobi's granddaughter. It makes sense to see the grand child of the Solo's Ben/Kylo and Kenobi (Rey) battle it out. Plus Kenobi stated in Rey's force back in TFA, Rey these are your first steps. those sound like word that a father or grand father would say. Any who, these guys have been wrong before, so I'm not saying they're right.... I'm still sticking by my theory that she is a Solo. However, I'm looking forward to the next episode Rebels with great anticipation.
     
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  13. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    I don't think that leaving your little girl with Unkar Plutt would count as protecting her! More so as the timeline of Ben/Kylo's fall to the darkside is presumably years after Rey was left on Jakku, so no, I don't think your theory of her as a Solo (Ben's sister) could work.
    I saw the image of Maul's shrine to Satine yesterday and yes, that is indeed curious isn't it to bring up Satine into the newest canon...
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    Good point! So would Luke Skywalker leave Rey with Unkur Plutt? And if not, who left Rey with the likes of Plutt?
     
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  15. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    I really have no theory about that at this point...but the person(s) who left her there may not necessarily have been her family...We'll have to wait and see...
     
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  16. The Hud

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    That's an interesting picture. She has her eyes scratched out and scratches across her neck. Angry Maul.
     
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  17. Lizardboy

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    I think this video could help your theory:

     
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  18. Finn is a Jedi

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    Personally I do not like the Rey Kenobi theory and I don't think there is a good way of explaining it, that being said I do think Obi Wan deserves something in the Sequel trilogy, first I think Ewan should show up as Old Ben force ghost. Second I think it would be really cool if Episode 8 or 9 had Finn take the name Kenobi. If my name is any indication I think that Finn will also be revealed to be force sensitive and possibly trained by Maz Kanata with Leia and later Luke (if he lives past 8). What I want to happen is Rey's lineage is revealed and isn't as big as every makes it out to be but Finn's remains a mystery since he was taken since he was a child after training either Luke, Leia, or Maz tells Finn that he should research some Jedi of the old Jedi Order and take the name of one he respects (similar to the Pope taking a new name) after doing some research Finn would pick Obi Wan, which to Luke and Leia is a sign of sorts, and he adopts the name Kenobi. It would also be cool if Finn eventually was given Obi Wan's lightsaber (found in Vader castle) so that Rey and Finn would have Anakin and Obi Wan's lightsabers and be a sort of passing of the torch type thing.
     
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    Just wondering, could Phasma be Reys mother and Kenobis daughter?
    Maybe that's why she was so easily convinced to lower the shields.
    Let's assume Gwendolyn Christie and Phasma are roughly the same age.
    So let's say for Phasma ~ 38 at the events of TFA. So Born ~ 5 BBY
    So she'd have given birth to Rey when she was 19.
    Obi Wan met her mother on Tatooine before 5BBY and she left after her birth, to raise her in a better place (and keep her away from dangerous Jedi business and she didn't like sand). Obi Wan had to stay because he had to protect Luke.
    Well so at least Rey as Obi-Wans grand daughter is doable even without Satine.
    Probably without throwing Phasma in though.
     
    #19 Meister Yoda, Jan 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
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  20. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
    1030th Captain ** (Mod)

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    OMG, what if Obi-wan was on Tatooine way earlier, he had an love interest with Shmi and she got pregnant.
    When Qui-Gon asked her who Anakins father is, she couldn't tell about Obi-Wan (because he's a Jedi and would get in trouble and he was only 16 at that time, so she would get in trouble). Short of a good answer she invented the virgin birth story.
    That would make Obi-wan Grandfather of Rey and Luke.
    Probably you're all glad by now, that I'm not part of the story group...
     
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