Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

And Vader's dead. There's a reason for that.

 

How is it that Rey can out-force-grab that light saber from kylo?

 

I think she was just stronger in that moment. Whether that be because he was injured or arrogant, I don't know. But I don't think the Force works in a biased way like this. If it did, then the Sith would never defeat the Jedi.

 

Well, that is still open to interpretation. But if the Force did create Anakin, it was a natural reaction caused by the Sith meddling with the Force in an unnatural but specific way. It wasn't the result of a "sentient force" deciding to create a chosen one.

But she still reached out to the saber herself, believing that she could force grab it. It was almost an instinctive action. And clearly she has a strong connection to the force, whether she realised it or not at that point. When she is against the ropes later and then focuses her mind then I think this is a different discipline to the instinctive action earlier.

However, I'm not dismissing your idea. It just doesn't sit right with me. If the Force could act in its own way, then the Sith wouldn't really stand a chance.
For me it always comes down to Force connection and power.
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys your commands".
I believe that Rey instinctively attempted to grab the saber and her connection with the Force (as well her her desire to get the saber) was greater than Ren's in that moment.

Having said all that, they're exploring this kyber crystal concept further so it could have something to do with that.

 

"[...]As the weapon flew
through the air, Rey knew it would be her only chance to stop Kylo. She raised her
hand and focused on drawing the lightsaber toward her. She felt a tug as it neared Kylo
Ren.

But she was stronger. The hilt flew into her hand. Instantly, she knew it was the
lightsaber from the box. She had seen all of this before. Kylo. Kylo Ren was the apprentice
whom Luke had trained. Kylo had fallen to the dark side. Kylo had sent Luke into hiding.
It all centered on Kylo." Rey's Story

In the TFA Lego Rey have to use the Force to get the lightsaber too, it didn't choose her rather than Kylo. Remembering this lightsaber was used by Anakin to kill young kids and attack innocent people, it couldn't have problems with Kylo.


Buuut we know that a kyber crystal can call/have a bond with a new owner (like Ahsoka Tano with crystals that belonged to an Inquisitor).

 

Yeah but that's as a result of the Sith's actions (that the Force was unbalanced) and then when the Force is unbalanced we never see it intervene when the Jedi are battling the Sith. Why not suddenly pull the saber from Anakin's grasp before he slices off Windu's arm?!

I agree that the Force desires balance and is always pushing for that. But I just feel that it can't directly intervene by choosing Rey to have the saber over Ren. I feel that this has to be down to what Rey does - working with the Force.

I think for sure that this is what the Force wanted and it guides those that listen to it do so. I think the Force also controls one's actions, if they surrender themselves to it (am I right in saying that the word "samurai" means surrender and this links with the jedi in some way?). But if the Force just made everything how it wanted to be then there wouldn't be any need for people or free will.

 

I think it was her innocence that it came to her. That and the force needed to to happen or Rey wouldn't have stood a chance. Kylo's arrogance stopped it from coming to him.

 

Maz said that 'the light saber calls to you' or words to that effect after Rey had the foce-vision on contact with the saber. I think it wasn't Rey's supiroir 'force power' that allowed her to pull the saber but simply that the saber chose her again. This should be an intentionally murky bit of force magic.

It could be that because Kylo is at war with himself over the light/darkside that he is unable to exert the power needed to best Rey, becuase he is too clouded.
Or it could be that the force really did choose her, becuase it wanted her in some way to win the fight.

Obi Wan say's there is no such thing as luck, so if that is true of the force it must have some kind of will of its own. Obi Wan vs Maul ended when Obi Wan suddenly had what seemed like a 'boost' of force energy.

I'm not saying I'm really a fan of the Force being in control of Jedi's actions, but I think Chirrut imwe in Rogue One shows the depths to which the force can aid you if you let it.
I don't think it was Rey's massive amount of raw force power that gave her the edge. She was either more in-tune with it than Kylo Ren or it simply chose to aid her.

 

The crystals (and by extension force) calling to Rey is very different from it magically flying towards her. As @Lia presented above, the canon line seems to suggest Rey over-powered Ren in that moment.

Partly the former and partly her own power. Ren was injured, conflicted and not at his best. Rey has a strong natural connection to the Force and perhaps had a stronger will in that moment to get the saber.

Kenobi beat Maul when he calmed down and cleared his mind (of anger).
That was a different situation to when Rey instinctively grabbed the saber. But it was like when Rey was being pushed back by Ren but then "let the Force in".

"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys your commands".

The point is Chirrut wasn't being puppeteered by the Force. He was choosing to move forward and he was letting the Force in. He was letting it guide him. The Force is available to everyone (not to the extent that it is for Jedi) should they seek its power.

 

Yes!

Much of the Jedi's natural strength comes from entering the flow of the Force, working with it rather than against it.

It's a very Taoistic approach, working within the Way, rather than standing or acting averse to it.

This goes toward a truly mindful and at-peace Jedi's acceptance of the role -- the Will -- of the Force: to become a mindful conduit through which the Force can flow freely and naturally, all while a Jedi can use that moment and positive momentum to direct selfless actions for good through the Force.

The Sith unnaturally commandeered aspects of the Force to suit their own selfish and power-driven ends. Their brute-force methods gave them what appeared to be vast powers, but it always inevitably was paid with a price, such as a loss of self-control and mindfulness, which is far more dangerous than it sounds.

Even Sidious / Palpatine, one of the rare Sith who could tap the Dark Side of the Force to peer into the future, ultimately became weaker for all his "unlimited power," even blinder to sensing things, such as Luke Skywalker at that point (i.e. Vader could at that point). And it was the Emperor's overconfidence in his own unnatural wielding of the Force that proved most fateful.

Prequel-era Jedi had become too rigid and bureaucratic, less in step with the natural flow of the Force, and this is, among other reasons, why Qui-Gon Jinn proved to be wiser than most on the Jedi Council he was not permitted to join, so much that Yoda and Obi-Wan would later become his students.

More broadly, so much of the Star Wars saga has to do with the way people -- and not just Jedi -- tend to step outside the normal order of things (and not in a good way) trying to exercise unnatural control over matters, all while losing self-control, self-esteem, self-respect, perspective, a sense of balance and peace within, and so on.

Kylo Ren is, outwardly, a prime symbol of such inner turmoil driven by an unnatural drive for control, but more must be revealed about his character, particularly his reason(s) for turning, to make more in-depth statements about him.

In the meantime, The First Order, headed by Snoke, is certainly working against the neutrality of the Force, wreaking havoc throughout the galaxy.

I think one of the most popular phrases in Star Wars speaks wonderfully of flow and intent of the Force: "May the Force be with you."

 

On that note, no vision then? Why not? And why didn't Luke have a vision when obi-wan gave it to him? There's probably something to that...

 

And this lightsaber never called to Luke or Leia (even in the new comics/novels). It's like this crystal has a bond with Rey stronger that Luke had with it. That's why I believe she doesn't need to have another lightsaber for now, the crystal already has a connection with her while Luke is better with the green lightsaber*

*In according to Return of the Jedi: Beware the Power of the Dark Side! when Luke "was finished the green lightsaber, he felt it truly was his lightsaber, almost an extension of himself".

 

I didn't mean it controlled her like it made her call the saber. but simply that it was with her in that moment. I think Vader says in ANH 'Kenobi is here and the force is with him.' I mean, May the force be with you even suggests it has a bit of its own will. Because if it May be with you, then it May also not be.
And again, I'm not a massive fan of the theory per say but I just think thats how it seemed in the film. it seemed like it abandoned Kylo ren and chose Rey. which could be because her power with it is just simply greater than his, or it could just be that in that moment she was the more in-tune with it.

I suppose in all the force fights so far we've never seen the force choose one side over another, it just hasn't happened. but something about the TFA fight seemed like that to me. I suppose its just the idea that Rey's natural ability being so great that she could best Kylo Ren in both Saber and Force ability just seemed a little unbelievable. and I agree that she has the hand combat skills to do so. but I'm not sure about the force. I mean, Anakin was supposed to be more powerful in the force than obi wan but it didn't seem like that in their show down, either time really. So I kinda assumed being more 'powerful' in the force wasn't really a thing. Like is Rey more powerful than Luke despite the training? I never felt that was how the force worked. Plus the title 'The Force Awakens' kinda sound like it has agency. I just assumed it woke up when she reached for the saber, like it helped her out. I dunno.

 

I think that the Force awakening is about the cosmic force waking up.
What I mean by that is the living force always exists and connects everything and everyone.
But the cosmic force, that deals with destiny, has been dormant for some time. Nothing much has really happened until we see TFA.
Then in TFA events unfold that awakens this mystical side of the Force. And it awakens because of Rey's actions - not the other way around.
When Rey decides to accept the call to adventure and uses the Force (unknowingly) when she flies the Falcon, this awakens the cosmic Force.
Rey then learns from Han that "The Jedi were real" and that the Force isn't just some hokey religion. It begins the process for her of letting the Force in.
She starts to believe - this then provides a way for her not just act instinctively but to actually connect to the Force knowing, allowing it to:
"Control her actions" but for the Force to "obey her commands".
The next scene then is Rey coming into contact with an object that has a strong connection to the Force:
The Skywalker saber and the crystal within it. This then is the Force beginning to show Rey her destiny. This is the cosmic Force laying down her path.
And the vision is one about her life and the journey of the lightsaber - including both Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker.
The vision shows her, as Maz realises too, that her destiny is to take the saber to Luke. She rejects this at first but later accepts the adventure.
When it comes to facing Ren in the forest, she has already discovered certain talents through her connection with Ren during the mind probing scene.
And she has of course began to let the Force in. Slowly. But nevertheless, the connection is there. She is using it and allowing it to guide her.
So when Ren tries to grab the saber, Rey instinctively does the same. And in that moment, be it because she does have a greater connection to the Force or because her will is stronger or because Ren is weakened by his conflict (or all three), overpowers him. It is later that Rey is against the ropes in the battle but then truly connects to the Force, truly believing and listening to it. This then provides her with the means to defeat Ren in battle.

But don't forget - Ren has just been badly injured and his conflict is greater than ever. This weakens him and coupled with his arrogance provides Rey the advantage.

 

That's a "I Hate You Ren, and Thanks a lot Snoke for making me rescue him" Face if there ever was one. <3

 

right? the person who drew this knows Hux's darkest heart ~ hahahaha!