Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

I have always thought of balance as something that requires experience with one side, to appreciate and understand the other. You cannot know love, without experiencing hate. You cannot experience bliss without overcoming fear. You cannot appreciate peace and contentment without experiencing anger. Of course the opposites are also true. To me this is where the Jedi were fundamentally flawed, by not recognizing the importance of such feelings and learning how to deal with them rather than suppressing them. Snoke knows this (and I suspect Luke does, too).

I think this has something to do with the reason Snoke believes Ren is the perfect blend of light and dark to mold into what he wants him to become, the "clay" so to speak... Why he has the potential to be so powerful. Ren will be just like we are told about Snoke, who has "been through some stuff." Not just physical trauma, but I suspect Snoke has experienced true loss and is now vengeful.

Snoke is forcing Ren to not only embrace the anger, fear, and loss he has already experienced from whatever the "profound tragedy" is that the Solo family has endured (I do not think it is just Ben Solo's fall, that was just the reaction to it...), but I think he will subject Ren to even more torture, loss, and grief to show him the dark side in an effort to cement him in it.

The question is, will he succeed? I think so... we will see Ren fall deeper and deeper into the dark as the ST moves along, becoming even more unhinged, brutal, and seemingly irredeemable... but no one is truly irredeemable. It is never too late.

 

this is nicely articulated ~ you've expressed well here the lines along which i am thinking. Ben will have had the unique experience of doing that thing everyone is freaking out about: returning from the Dark side and living to atone for it. and having been there he will have that greater appreciation, greater ability in the Light. Augustine became a saint not by being a pious celibate from the moment of his birth, but by having known the thrills and joys of absolutely reveling in sin.

as to the success, i originally thought as you do: that Ren would consume Ben for a time, and i still do, but i think that timeline will be shorter than i originally anticipated. i think he'll have had it with Snoke before the end of TLJ. he may not come running home of his own volition yet or even ready to admit the entirety of his faults, but i think he will break from Snoke's influence somehow and be primed for a new understanding of his place in the galaxy.

 

So after having been asked about the slightly different position of Kylo's scaring (which honestly is not at all a big deal IMO) Rian Johnson has explained that as some of us have suspected, the decision was made for esthetic purposes because you don't want your dark sad prince to look "goofy", you want him to look good.



I was always sure that the scar will not be deformative and lo and behold it is not.

The scar is there as a reminder for his father's love, sacrifice and forgiveness and not to make him look like a monster, despite what some may be thinking/wishing.




Also I saw a fanmade alternative poster that is Kylo centric which I thought looks alright...

 

aw, this really should have been Luke and Rey.
nobody wants to have to look at that fishy-eyed toilet monster. ; D

 

I appreciate your thoughts and agree... to a point. If Ren has had it with Snoke by the end of TLJ, I hope he simply turns against him to usurp his power, not for redemption. That, I believe, comes later. I actually want to see a Skywalker sitting atop the galactic throne, even if only for a short time...

 

ha! well that's an intriguing idea! hadn't even thought of that.
but i think if anyone usurps Snoke's power, it would be Hux.
Ren hasn't actually shown any interest in ruling the galaxy--yet.
we'll have to see where he's at in TLJ.

 

Yeah, I agree! It should have been Luke! I also don't like Snoke on anything too...
The reason I shared it is because the symbolism of Rey and Ben being the Balance is there in both posters...so that's why I think it is alright (in stark difference with the mostly horrendous parody posters that have emerged the past couple of days)...At least in this one there is some thought behind it that is not so much off kilter...and to an extend preserved the idea that Kylo and Rey are the Balance. (In the original teaser poster the light of the lightsaber glow is half red half blue and is exactly in the middle of Kylo/Ben's face. As it should. In this one the same is true...)

In terms of Snoke and Ben/Ren and Snoke telling him he was the perfect material of balance of light and dark. I think Snoke understands that the potential for Ben to become more dark is to have light as well. The brighter the light, the darker the shadow...Thus he wants to make him do awful things (such as killing his father) because only extinguishing his light will make his dark, darker...We know that this backfired and Snoke's plan ultimately failed and Ben did not feel more dark after that ultimately dark horrible deed he was manipulated into making and it horrified him and I believe that despite what many think this did not push him further to the dark side, but quite the opposite pushed him further towards the light...

It is still not clear what Ben/Ren hears when Snoke is telling him all those half-truths and is manipulating him...But I think it is safe to place all bets that ultimately Han's words that Snoke is using him will more and more become evident for Ben/Kylo. I do not buy it that when Kylo/Ben finally realises that Snoke is using him (and manipulating him) his reaction is to replace him.
But we'll see.
One of the most crucial questions in VIII that needs answering is what happened with Luke's temple/academy and why did Ben decide he must "destroy" Ben Solo and become Kylo Ren. That is a question that will also answer why is Luke where we find him. It is the most pressing question really.

 

the only way i can see this happening is if he still believes that the FO is the means to his path and he hasn't any confidence in its leadership.
he hates Hux, so it's a possibility, i guess, but i still don't see him saying: i'm going to run this all myself. he hasn't got the confidence (as of TFA).

otherwise, or more likely, i think he would ditch Snoke and the FO simultaneously to attempt to build another power structure (with the KoR or Rey or whomever).

i don't know. there are lots of ways this could go.

 

What do you think Ren meant when he was talking to Vader's helmet and said "I will finish what you started..." Darth Vader had said, "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son! Come with me. It is the only way." Ren wants to rule the galaxy, just as his grandfather did. He sees it as his birthright, given his power...

At least that's how I see it!

That's why he is still using Snoke... to learn all he can before he overthrows him!

 

Hey, that's not true. They're best buddies.

Sometimes I'm torn apart between this and a possible redemption.
On the one hand I want Ren to be redeemed but on the other hand I would really like to see a full dark side Ren. Maybe they could do a mixture of both ways. => Kylo Ren kills Snoke but he doesn't join forces with the heroes.

 

totally see something else ~ hahahaha
i see him pushing to bring order to the galaxy, but not as its figurehead; hence his alignment with a Centrist junta, dependence on a mentor, etc.
the impression i get from him (mostly through the novelization) is that he believes in the big picture goal--not personal glory for himself.
this is like a holy calling to him--to serve, not to rule.

but again, who knows? he might do a complete 180 since his run-in with Rey and killing his father.
his priorities could be as unstable as his temper (and his light saber).

 

I don't disagree that he wants to bring order to the galaxy, but in the same way Anakin did: "Then they should be made to agree."

I have said this somewhere before (in this thread perhaps) that what I want to see is Kylo Ren ascending the throne in much the same way as how Riddick ascended the throne of the Deathmongers: Seemingly having fought for what he believes is the right thing, exhausted from vanquishing the greater evil, expecting the loyalists to turn against him for defeating their master, to only find them embrace him as their new leader... and yet still feeling some level of remorse or defeat within himself.



In other words, the dark prince Kylo Ren, like Riddick, has accepted his dark fate and ascended the throne, but knowing deep down it is wrong, and thereby leaving open the chance for redemption...

 

i think it's a totally valid narrative, but i think it's too dark for Disney, ultimately.
it doesn't satisfy the need to redeem our OT trio; their legacy son remains in a dark dark confusing place and Han's hope (and Leia's) remains unfulfilled.
it also leaves Ren lonelier and more broken than ever and a galaxy still hanging in the balance, really, which is the worst of it.
there's no healing here (even if there's a window of the hope for it in the future).

maybe we'll get the best of all worlds. Ren will usurp Snoke, take control of the FO, and ultimately relinquish power at the end of the ST to restore a republic.
that's a long arc. hahaha

 

Well, ROTS was pretty darn dark and tells a very similar tale...

I don't exactly envision this as the end of the Saga, mind you... maybe the end of Episode IX, if there are to be further episodes... or maybe just the end of TLJ. You know, the movie (or trilogy) before his sister redeems him.

 

Did you read my personal fanfiction? This is pretty much the ending of my EPIX outline.

So many great ideas here! My Ren-heart is pleased.

 

true, but, well...we want something good, don't we? [snert]

oh nooooooo ~ not his sister!
hahaha

i am glad to hear it! : D

 

Kylo has "dark side eyes" in this picture no?

 

doubtful. Adam Driver's eyes are lighter brown than people realize. they look very different under various light.

 

Yes he does! Not yellow...but pretty close! I wonder if he is going to get revenge on Rey for his defeat in TFA.

 

No. This is a accidental effect of that photo being taken during the panel at an angle. It's just a trick of the lighting.
Here is a photo taken straight at the screen where it's obvious there are no dark side eyes. Just sad puppy eyes.
We just have to wait for officially revealed image of good quality, not a photo taken by someone at the panel...


The Battlefront II Last Jedi Heroes game image also shows normal human (and very sad) eyes.