Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

In part to understand why Ren Killed his father you need to listen to JJ’s commentary Ren did not make the decision to do so until the light of the Sun went out . How was that going to effect REn emotionally ? and that is an important point to understand. Luke and Vader was not the analogy here. Ren is not interested in Redemption he is being driven by something else more important to him. When he killed his father he thought it would take him to the dark side … and it failed (and yes he feels bad about it and is having trouble dealing with it) per jj in the commentaries. And also tfa books. Go back to the aftermath books his light is very strong. Yes, so is his shadow. Refer back also to the beginning of the Movie Lor San Tekka flat out says you did not come from the darkside. The issue right now is Ben/Ren cannot turn to the darkside. He does not know how to resolve the light and dark into one. And it is why he thinks he is not strong enough.. This is a very important. The only training Snoke is interested in is so he can take more power from Ben… Ben has spent at least 8 years with Luke and about 5 years or more with the acolytes of the Beyond/Kor. Studing the darkside. Ben except for his father will not have to be redeemed. Ben never turned. That is the hint the Japanese flyer is giving you. The big twist (Ren never turned against Luke nor is he is support of the FO). Luke killed the kids. Luke was broken by what he did. Ben saw the light side did not save the kids. He went off and built the KOR in response to that. This all goes back to what Snoke is . Snoke is not a natural user. He drains force users for his power and to extend his life. (this is why Luke killed the kids he had too this is what is upsetting Mark) He needs to drain their lives and the living force. The stronger the better. The black kyber crystal probably either protects him or allows him to do that we will have to see. He probably has a holochron he can use as well. Snoke was originally human. Snoke is probably going to be a The Lazarus effect type scenario. He became humanoid when he merged with the holochron and it gave him power and made his humanoid. The key to this story is what Snoke is. I don’t know if you are a reader but if you will read chapter 18 of the aftermath book and pay close attention to the screaming Citadel comic series they are very important to the line of this story (they are teaching Luke something very important). So sorry for the long post. My oponion of course but we are getting more evidence all the time to support this.

 

Luke killing kids is total crazy

Luke killing kids is total crazy speculation, other than that I can agree with most of your post

 

Great post... and you are correct. Allow me to add to that. When the light of the sun went out is when JJ said he did make the decision to kill his father what Jj does not say but hints at is the why----- You have to understand when the light went out it met his Mother was dead.. he could not stop that. The light going out made his feel helpless and weak. He really had been trying to stop Snoke. he was not ready to stop Snoke as he thinks he has to get to the darkside to do it . His mothers death pushed him to that. But he was in for a big shock killing his father did not turn him to the dark, in fact, it did just the opposite. Snoke gave him Vaders helmet , In away Snoke has sealed his own fate when he did that. The real tradgey here in TFA Ben was trying to reach out to Luke to get his help to stop the SKB. he did not turn to his father for help, as for reasons we are going to learn felt like he could not depend on his father. Again the real tragedy was that Han did exactly that he destroyed the SKB. Also, JJ points out it is an important point to know Han fell into the bright light when he died confirming Ben on the light side I assume. When Ben killed his father in the book he so felt the pain and heartbreak that he feel to his knees.. One more thing i am gong to add to this if you cannot read what my post is also trying to tell you is .... Ben never turned he has from the beginning been trying to take out Snoke but he has been trying to do it his way... he feels he has to be on the darkside to do it ..... it is why he is conflicted. I suspect that is what the Japanese flyer is trying to say.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Jun 18, 2017 ---

And why do you think Mark is so shocked.. Luke had to kill the kids he was not going to stand there and let Snoke drain them and become more powerful.. and please remember who wrote this Rian Johnson mr. dark himself... PLEASE READ AFTERMATH CHAPTER 18 THE BOOK TELLS WHAT SNOKE IS GOING TO BE.

 

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it's an interesting theory and you know i defend Ren Ben to nth of my ability, but Ben is emotionally weak.
if he wanted to stop Starkiller and was capable of doing so, Hux's neck is a thin twig easily snapped by the Force.

you refer to the book and i do as well: there's no question there that Ben is completely taken by Snoke, that Snoke controls everything he is and that Ben has ceded that control completely; that he believes in the mission, that he has genuine purpose here. in a scene cut from the movie, he tells Mitaka all about it in rapturous tones.

Ben (nor Ren) is the least bit capable to subterfuge. he almost always says what he's thinking, even when it's not appropriate.
and even when he does manage to bite his tongue, his face gives him away entirely.

 

I agree with you 100% about what you said about Ren's facial expression in this gif and the psychological damage his actions will have caused.

However, too many of us are strongly convinced that Ren will turn against Snoke and return to the light. Is that not a little too predictable? My suggestion is even if Ren does turn against and defeat Snoke, is there not perhaps a chance Ren will rather than step back into the light, continue further into the dark, unlike his grandfather?

 

maybe turning back to the Light is predictable, but Ben himself is anything but. what will he do? how will people react? it's easy for us to say he'll come back, but what happens after that could actually be the story here. not to mention this is Rey's story too (even moreso). so if a redemption arc for Ren is predictable, again, there are so many variables with our primary hero that may not be quite so predictable.

and even then, predictability isn't story death as some people seem to think it is.
in any hero/fantasy film do we really not expect the hero to win?
victory is always predictable. it's the journey and the stakes that matter.

 

Ben came home looking for Luke. Luke was not there he burned the tree and the temple was caught fire or was burned also (i think it caught fire from the tree) ... Ben could have been there or left looking for luke hard to say the order that this went down. Ben might have been waiting for Luke and they fought and Ben threw his saber at him or Luke took it and Ben left... the order of this is hard to say we do not have enough details yet. but Luke was probably not there because he was out looking for Ben and came home. however, someone followed Ben or Luke back .. Luke was by himself when he faced the 3rd party and they were there for the kids they wanted the kids alive. We sort of see that in the trailer. Luke returning with R2D2 and sees the place burning.its like Ben has been there and is gone (and again not sure of the order) . Kids are probably hiding or someone is already there waiting not sure of the order of things yet. Ben did not hurt the kids. Ben was only mad at Luke. however, Ben did return you will get a misdirection of a flashback that looked like Ben killed them when in fact he is walking among the dead bodies shocked. The Kids are needed so Snoke can become more powerful, it's why Luke kills them. it's why Mark is upset. Ben leaves not because of Vader/ grandfather he leaves because the light side of the force did not save the kids. Luke was not strong enough in Ben's eyes (Ben may blame himself for not being there) But now Ben thinks to destroy Snoke you have to be dark side user. this puts him in conflict he is from the lightside and cannot resolve using the darkside but he is convinced the darkside has to be stronger. It is why he goes to learn about his Grandfather and he builds the KOR in response to what happened to the kids. Han said he destroyed it all but nowhere in the book nor in the movie does it say who killed the kids... if will notice oddly that is what is kept hidden from us . Spoiler here ..When Ren lands on ach-too it is for several things but ...Luke and Ben start to fight when Ben tells Rey the truth (notice Ben never lies to her) or he tries to Tell her the truth that Luke Killed the kids ... the point he is trying to make I am guessing is that the light side did not work. It failed his Uncle. Luke gets very mad and blows the hut they are talking in .. Luke is trying to stop him from telling Rey the truth... This is when they cross swords also, and it is also when Leia reaches out through the force and tells Luke to let him go. (that is for another story) (Pablo was trying to say at Chili comic con that Luke and Leia sort of met but its not in person but it got lost in translation) Luke lets him go. As the audience, we will not probably know the whole truth of this from Ren and Lukes encounter. There was one other witness to all of this and that is Luke's stable boy ... when Finn and Rose return the falthfure (space horse sorry of bad spelling of those things lol ) back to the stables, which they stole to escape the FO. Finn learns from the stable boy what really happened at Luke's temple. This could be important as Ren was the one did slice his back but he did not kill him and on Finn's first encounter Ren completely spared him. So it will be interesting when Finn hears the truth.. what he will do with the information. The stable boy probably survived for two reasons he was not force sensitive and probably hid ... and saw it all go down at the the temple. Luke facing the truth, Finn know the truth (Rey forgives him for killing his father but i am not sure he forgives himself I know he is not dealing well with it ) Luke facing the truth of what happened and Finn knowing the truth is what leads to the so called big twist...

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Jun 18, 2017 ---

I think we see Ben as emotionally weak and it may be true … but we are associating emotion with weakness which might be a mistake. That was the point of taking out SKB killing just Hux would not do it … he needs to take out both Snoke and Hux .. No I don’t think Snoke is controlling everything about him … I will give leadway maybe at times somethings or is it a bluff? We don’t know. Ren does not believe in the mission but he does believe in it to the point he has to have the map Ren makes it very clear he has to have the map and Snoke and Hux do not. Clearly he thinks he needs to reach out to Luke. I think in the adult version on page 98 or 93 when snoke is talking about Luke Ren keeps quiet as he does not want snoke to know his feeling about Luke . His true feeling about Luke. The first scene in the movie and the book gives it away. Ren knew when he got off that ship he was going to have to kill Lor San tekka. The book versions give u s details Tekka cared for this young man. Tekka was a family friend which means he had knowledge of the family. Altough it looks like he lost his temper he knew when he got off that ship he was going to have to kill him. Why? Because he could not let Hux get a hold of this man and possibly have Tekka tell them about his family . he knew Tekka would not survive the torture of Hux. Poe tells us the rest. When Hux could not break Poe. Ren is called in to get the map. Poe says and I paraphrase here … Might want to rething your strategy .. The next line was cut from the movie I think because it was too obvious …. Dead man cannot talk … and in the movie Ren does not respond at all. But in the book he says not even phased is a Truism for sure.

 

it doesn't take much to see he's emotionally compromised and that's a weakeness. he loses his focus/control at the mere mention of his family.

Snoke gives him enough leash to let him feel empowered, that's all.

there's almost zero chance Hux doesn't know Ren's family. the FO is (by decree) forbidden from mentioning it. so it's doubtful there's anything really to hide here. also, it's not Luke Ren conceals in the book, it's Leia. he cuts Snoke off at the mention of her name. and later, he starts to cry when Han mentions his mother (this is changed in the movie). all we know about Ren and Luke is that Ren has an agenda to find him, but i wouldn't speculate further on that point. he has a vendetta there or wants information. again, the chances of him involved in some convoluted plot against Snoke with Luke as an ally seem slim to none. Ren is too emotionally compromised by his circumstances and no one's behavior suggests anything other than that.

 

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Sorry different part of the book Adult page 138 snoke is saying Giving the enemy the means to locate skywalker and bring to their cause a most powerful ally. If skywalker returns, the new jedi will rise end of quote next line Ren sat impassive, niether commenting nor visibly betraying his thoughts. so clearly he is hiding something from snoke ...

 

yes, he's hiding lots of things from Snokie-poke.
his doubts, his fears, his call to the Light.
but a plot to overthrow him? very doubtful.

just think about it on the simplest terms.
a Luke Skywalker who would do this to his nephew, to his sister, to his BFF Han is lunatic-level crazy.
Watchman-Ozymandias-level crazy.

what you describe is not heroic at all.
it is a villainy to rival Palpatine.

edit: all that said, let's see if Ren doesn't come back in TLJ plotting in some fashion. of his own volition.

 

if he agreed with snoke he would have nothing to hide

 

like i said, he has lots to hide: his fear, his pain, his doubt.
those things don't necessarily add up to plotting a long-game overthrow that involves risking the lives of billions of people in the galaxy and destroying the Skywalker family in the process.

 

I think Snoke might be the villain @Winterstar describes. But I can't see things so dark as Luke killing students so as to not be drained. Then to run off, rather than attempt to finish the fight, or take himself out so he can't be drained. Nah. Kylo faced his dark side test and passed the test but it has not worked out for him. That will lead him to understand that he's Snoke's pawn and he will act against Snoke and assume power.

Just as he had to "prove" he was evil, not because he was good, he took plenty of evil actions but because it isn't killing his pain. He is straining to the dark vainly hoping he can cross some Rubicon of conscience that allows for freedom from regret.

 

I'm going to make a guess that that image is from one of the recent Vader Comics. Is it there that they are setting the story up that Vader was "playing the long game"? Just from seeing the movie(ROTJ), I always inferred that Vader's decision to kill Sidious was a "knee-jerk" gut reaction to seeing Luke suffering at Sidious' hands.

 

he didnt have to run they were all dead... again please refer to chapter 18 in aftermath and look at the screaming citedal what he is learning

 

I will have to see Screaming Citadel. Aftermath I assume you are referring to Yupe Tashu's mention of powerful ancient Sith.

But I can't possibly see Luke killing people even to keep them safe. Nor can I look at Kylo's actions and say he hasn't fallen.

Has the Screaming Citadel comics even come out yet?

 

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Issue #1 has

 

The trailer is suggesting Kylo is even more immersed in the Dark Side. I think he will find the remaining piece of the map to Luke (maybe he tracked the Falcon?) and will seek to kill his uncle, the man who downed Vader and brought Anakin back and finish what Vader started (if Luke would not turn, then his destiny is to die) I think there will be an emotional moment between Luke and Kylo and they have some dialogue with Rey watching and eventually Kylo becomes ENRAGED and then tries to unleash hell on Rey and Luke and it starts a battle on Ahch-To (and this is when Luke realizes he needs to get off Ahch-To, this is the catalyst that gets him off world). Maybe at the end of the film we are left with the impression Rey and Kylo are gonna have a rematch (in IX).

 

Well Luke had two options give the kids to Snoke who was going to drain them and kill them or kill them himself... a tuff choice