Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

I came across this nice video analysis of Kylo's duel with Finn and the parallels with Vader's lightsaber style which I thought I should post here. Especially the shoulder lucky strike is a very nice callback to how Luke grazed (the same side shoulder) of Vader in ESB and apparently the callback is there. Nice parallels.

The proof Kylo was merely toying with Finn

 

This is the $1 million question. (The one Christians have an answer for--he can't and no one could except someone who never did any evil--but alas, there is no such person in SW!) If Kylo Ren turned away from his evil actions and made continual restitution--is that "redemption"? I'd take it over no redemption in this ST any day, mind you...

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 25, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 25, 2016 ---

Even with the parallels, Kylo Ren's attacks seem a lot more violent, don't they? Like he's a hot mess of emotions or something.

 

A Christian would probably have a better understanding of atonement than myself, but for me it's not like the wrong can ever be righted. But I still think this doesn't discount the importance of realizing and understanding the wrong. Living with that knowledge and understanding then requires a certain strength, and further, doing good, or making restitution, despite that burden, as opposed to giving up or dieing, or doing nothing requires yet more strength. A dead or absent man can do no good in the universe.

I guess I'd have to consider the negative ramifications of Kylo's actions to consider how he could atone. I guess if his actions destoyed the Jedi, helping them to rebuild would be a good start. Then helping to bring peace and freedom to the galaxy might help after the whole FO debacle.

I guess that would be a great way for future Jedi to get over emotion clouding their vision, if Kylo Ren became the new Jedi Grand Master. It would be ironic in a way too, as this would be his atonement and burden, and that it was probably also one of his goals in his misguided youth.

 

It's true. All of it.

If Kylo was this kind of rotten villain that was pure evil, I might not be a strong advocate of his redemption. But if we have learned something from Anakin's story, it is that he was not pure evil either, he was just a boy, standing in front of a girl (lol too much Notting Hill, daresay!) He was just a Force-Sensitive boy who grew up as a Jedi, but had a hard time controlling his emotions and fear. When we met him on the OT, already as a villain, we might have thought he was totally in the dark side, but the ESB came up and we found out he was a father, so he might have fallen in love before becoming that monster! But then the prequels came, and aside all the flaws we know about them, they showed us a human with virtues and defects, that was manipulated by a evil master mind using his weak points as a lever for his path to the dark side.

So what I say is that of course he can be redeemed. How? I have a lot of ideas but not sure which one will end up happening, or not. I only wish he redeems just for the sake of his mother.

 

I like what you're saying here--besides that, to me, watching someone onscreen realize their wrong actions, resolve to change, and then strive to achieve good things is more interesting than watching them realize they were wrong, confess, and then die. (I'm thinking film adaptions of Tolkien here.) A death can indeed change things--but only for the living who are impacted by it, and not for the dead person of course. It would be amazing to see Kylo Ren's amazing power and his ragged emotions finally find unity, and in unity strength to reach the galaxy for good.

Jedi Grand Master sounds very optimistic to me, because I think it would take years for Kylo to get the kind of control necessary for that...but, hey, that's what the next sequel trilogy is for, right?

 

So why aren't you sharing these ideas with those who are interested, i.e. me? In some ways, I'm more interested in peoples ideas than what actually ends up happening. Who cares if people's ideas are right or not, I just like to see how other people see things, and examine the ideas they have. I especially like it if it makes me expand my own viewpoint, or see things differently, or think more in depth about something.

 

It is very puzzling for me when I hear that redeeming Kylo is a boring story. It has been done only once and if you look at it basically the 6 previous films are about that redemption story. It basically had a beginning and an end that took 6 films to show.
That Kylo is set up in many ways as Anakin/Vader is very obvious. Kylo's close connection with the characters from the OT (being the son of han and Leia and nephew to Luke and grandson to Anakin/Vader) makes his redemption even more likely, especially since with each passing day it looks like the more and more likely case is of him being the sole (pun intended) young Skywalker in these ST movies...(Especially with the newly emerged timeline we get from Bloodlines, it is extremely unlikely for anyone to still hold on to Rey being in any way related to the Skywalkers).

I agree with you - being redeemed and remaining alive is much more harder than redeeming and being killed and is a much better way.

It is strange and extremely puzzling to me why nobody questioned Luke when he wanted to save Vader and take him on his ship before the Death star exploded. Why was Luke not questioned by all those who say that Kylo is irredeemable, when he apparently saw no issue with taking Vader back. What was he thinking?, "o boy, my father was the Empire hunchman for more than 20 years, he hunted and killed jedi (even the young ones) and betrayed his religious order, his friends, may have killed my mother, held my sister (his daughter captive and tortured her for information), killed my mentor and his own former master (Obi-Wan), tortured my best friend (Han) and cut my hand - I got to save him."
I think people are reacting only on the base of their emotional attachment to Han Solo. Vader has done much and many worse things, but apparently part of the TFA audience somehow disregards them and finds it is ok to save Vader, but not Ben Solo? We saw him kill 2 people (if we count the guy in the vision, 3).

P.S. "devout atheist" that's a nice oxymoron by the way, hahaha

Yes, that would be more satisfying and interesting, isn't it?

Well, as a first he is about 15 years younger than Vader and while badly injured is not hal a machine which makes Vader not very agile and mobile...
But, yes, he is a hot mess...

This is a good way yes.

You guys have been talking about Christian ideas about atonement and redemption, but let me tell you about Buddhist ones. What counts is the realisation that what you have done is not right and start from that point on doing right. A great example in the Buddhist tradition is the conversion of what in our present understanding is a psychopathic serial killer, who had killed 999 holy men collected their fingers with which he made a finger necklace/garland he wore, and is confronting the Buddha to kill him as well and complete his finger garland. That killer (whose name was Angulimala, literally "finger necklace/garland") was converted by the Buddha and saw the truth of Buddha's teaching of no harm, etc and was accepted by the Buddha to became a Buddhist monk. He also is said to have attained awakening (enlightenment) after that. So, in Buddhism, the moment you realise your wrong deeds and start doing good ones, you are saved.
Everyone has been a murderer, even the Buddha, in a previous life, but since Buddhist believe in the evolution and betterment of ourselves, they see no problem or issue with redemption, on the contrary.
I think we in the West, even if not identifying ourselves as Christian believers, are still heavily influenced by the Abrahamic idea of "an eye for an eye", becuase it permeates the secular Western culture. The judicial system for instance while claiming to be secular, believes in punishment, which if analysed is not really a secular idea...

For me, I see no issue at all with someone who sincerely sees the errors of his ways and from that moment on changes and in earnest starts acting in good ways...
In the SW universe this is illustrated by the ideas of having light or dark. As long as someone goes back to the light, that is enough, which Anakin/Vader case proved was possible, despite and disproving what Yoda claimed that once you are on the path of the darkside you are forever lost. Vader's example has proved that having light when you're dark means you are going to be saved. As I already pointed out Luke was determined to get Vader on his ship and save him. For him it was enough that his father could go back to the light side.

Kylo/Ben, even if he is shown in EP VIII to become even more seemingly dark/lost will be eventually redeemed if "there is still light in him".

Also, this trilogy seems to want to tackle the ideas about the Force and force sensitive individuals differently that the narrow jedi/sith distinctions...Example in case is Maz (being Force sensitive but not a Jedi, also Leia as well) and Kylo who is neither a jedi, nor he is a sith.

P.S. Sorry, that turned out to be a very long post...

 

Thanks!

I should have said "I have a lot of ideas that are similar to the ones that have been shared already" here are a few:

1) Pulling a Vader: This is Kylo being in the Dark side till the end until something triggers his redemption back to the Light Side of the Force. Maybe the love of his mother would make the trick.

2) Kingslayer mode: I got this one inspired from GoT. He pulls a Jaime Lannister at one point when Snoke is planning to finish the Resistance: he has a sudden change of conscience and kills Snoke.

3) Reylo?: I am not shipping them but it could be a possibility. It would be quite contrary from his grandfather: Anakin went totally into the dark side for fear to lose his love; Kylo goes back to the Light Side to save the one he loves.

4) House of Cards style: Due to his failure vs Rey, Snoke starts treating him like Palpatine was treating Vader after the destruction of the first Death Star (see Darth Vader comics). Snoke starts relying more in Hux, Phasma and other Dark Side Force users we don't know yet. So Kylo starts moving away from Snoke, apparently focusing on his training, but his confusion starts building up and at the same time he wants to get stronger to take over Snoke. But then something happens that add more into his confusion and makes him acknowledge the wrong of his ways.

These are some of the ways I've been wondering how he could be redeemed lol.

 

same as anybody else: one day at a time.

 

Oooh, I love all these answers we have to @Empire Jo's $1 million Kylo Ren question: how could Kylo possibly atone for his actions?
Keep 'em coming.

 

Anakin/Vader sacrificed his life to defend another to atone. So then he could become a force ghost.

Not much short of sacrifice, death, or imprisonment where Kylo Ben could begin to atone for his misdeeds.

 

Or he could stab Snoke in the back (literally) after he is done being brainwashed and realizes how delusional he's been as a start .

 

I would love it if both Luke and Leia could somehow have a hand in bringing Kylo Ren back to the Light. If Rey is directly involved too, so much the better, but I reeeally want 1. the Luke who believed so strongly in Vader's Light to believe just as strongly in Kylo Ren's--especially since he suffered the blow to his training of a new generation of Jedi at his hands, and 2. the Leia who believed so strongly in Kylo Ren's Light to be just as right about it as her brother was about Vader--especially since she suffered the blow of her husband being murdered at his hands.

 

i feel that the suffering he's caused Luke and Leia are going to be the reason we need Rey to bring him over. he's angry with his mother and his uncle and not very likely to heed them any better than Han (i'd wager less-so) until he gets some clarity.

a peer like Rey can come in with almost a fresh slate: without judgment, separate from the family, understanding of his unique FS issues, and willing to hear his side of things. it's just a question of whether she can actually do that perhaps.

 

I personally hope he isn't redeemed, already saw that with Vader. Would much rather see a villain who wants to be bad and enjoys being bad lol

 

Well, you have Hux and Snoke ...

 

The key to your post is the word "personally".

We already saw a villain who wants to be bad and enjoys it. For several episodes actually:







So, my wish to have a "villain" who is conflicted and doesn't enjoy being bad and is redeemed is what I personally want. The question however isn't only what we personally want, but what is the best story...

EDIT:

Also:

 

True but having him not be redeemed is different than Vader's arc. One of the biggest complaints so far of this trilogy is the similarities to the OT, and to have a villain truly be evil and have him pay for his choices is different, and more interesting in my opinion.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 25, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 25, 2016 ---

Good point definitely, this is my opinion of course, just don't want to see a redemption again, but if the writing is good I'm down for whatever lol

 

Vader paid by dying... so I agree, we don't want to do that again!

 

He did, but did turn back to the good side briefly, Kylo should go out evil till the end. But like I told Obi-Wan Solo if the writing and script is good I'll be down for anything lol