Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

Oh ok. So I take it they know Leia was adopted and don't know that Anakin became Vader (or didn't know full story that was "invented" about their father)?

 

It seems so.

 

it was always known Leia was adopted.
Breha was unable to have children of her own.

 

Yes, only very few people knew that Anakin was Darth Vader.

The question is what did Ben know about Anakin Skywalker at this time? Did they pull a "Obi-Wan" at him?

 

I’m actually reading Bloodline again right now: it was public knowledge both that Luke and Leia were brother and sister, and that Leia was adopted by the Organas.

Not before it is revealed in Bloodline, no; it wasn’t even public knowledge that Leia choked Jabba to death, either!

I don’t think we’ve had confirmation that he was 23 at the time of the book, so he could have also been 22 (~6 years before TFA, where he is 29); also, it is only implied that this is when Ben falls to the Dark Side, as Leia worries about the implications of Ben finding out from the Holonet and not being told the truth by Luke, herself or Han; they had planned to tell him eventually, and Leia even mentions that they were going to make the key point that, in the end, Vader was redeemed by upending the Emperor.

The reason that I keep bringing up that it is only implied is because Leia had had little-to-no communication with Ben and Luke for quite a long time by and during the time at which the book takes place: it’s entirely possible Ben had fully turned to Snoke prior to the events of the book, or that this was what tipped him over the edge. It’s totally possible that Snoke informed Ben of this, seeing as he also knew about Vader turning against the Emperor and says that it was his greatest weakness in a moment of turmoil.

In fact, it’s entirely possible that Luke did tell Ben about how his grandfather was Vader/Anakin and was redeemed in the end and that this is how Snoke learned of this.

 

Now this is an interesting thought to entertain.

 

I agree--it is possible that Luke told Ben about Anakin/Vader and Vader's redemption, but did not or could not inform Leia of the fact. We only have Leia's POV on Ben not knowing, and of course despite her (minimal) efforts, she has not been in contact with Luke or Ben for some time during Bloodline. Definitely something to think about.

We do know--from the TFA novelization, I think?--that Snoke put his own twist on this "redemption" for Ben Ren: that it was a fatal weakness for Anakin/Vader to have turned back to the light. Snoke drives the point home to Ren that this was a shameful act.

 

Maybe that was Snoke's plan. To learn this.

 

This one is better:

 

Kylo Ren to me is the best character in the Sequel Trilogy. Do not mistake me; I really do not like TFA that much and I consider it an incomplete movie. But rewatching it, if there was one positive it was Kylo Ren. Adam Driver(among the great actors) really stood out for me. He was what I wanted Anakin to be; a conflicted individual who doesn't know what he is. I also do like his design.

The helmet is dumb(which I am glad is gone now) but the hood and black cloak are great. Also, his Lightsaber has grown on me, namely the erratic blade which symbolize his instability. My two critiques on Kylo are the following: 1) He shouldn't be the main antagonist and 2) victim of the plot.

Kylo ren: I got what Abrams wanted to do with him. He's the Zuko of Star Wars. But unlike Zuko; his emotional rants and wavering do not have an Iroh like figure. And really, unlike Zuko; he didn't display any savvy tactics. To rectify this, the movie should have had Hux be the antagonist. Because in ANH Darth Vader wasn' the main antagonist. He was one of them, but it was Tarkin and the Death Star.

Why not have Hux be that guy and have a reverse relationship between the two where they hate each other. Both want to appease Snoke. And heck, tie Starkiller base to Hux and him being a blind mega patriot. And Kylo calling him out on that. In fact, it would make sense as his loyalties are to Snoke. Not the First Order hence the traitor line is horrible.


The other flaw is that he is a victim of the plot. Why would he remove his mask for Rey? There's no reason for him to do so. Unless, he knows her, but really we have no indication if he does know her in the movie. And his loss to Rey hurt him. I get why he lost and won't debate that, but as the MAIN antagonist; it devalues him in my view.

And really, TLJ is going to need to go a long way to redeem that. Kylo wanting revenge is a start, but there needs to be more. Like Kylo becoming more focused and sane, while the opposite happens to Rey. Overall, despite those moderate flaws; I enjoy Kylo a lot.

If Rian Johnson wasn't directing; he would be the only draw for me to see TLJ. Because really; I am rooting for Kylo to kick Rey's butt. And am curious to see how he got the way he is.

 

He removes the mask because of what she says to him. He wants to prove she is wrong and not this creature in a mask.

 

Yeah, and it was a dumb moment. And I point you to this video:

Kylo ren's mask: 43:38-44:39

Despite the clickbait ness of the title, this guy does raise a valid point about Kylo Ren, who was so desperate to be Vader, wanting to take off his mask for a stranger is outright ridiculous. Especially, considering how Rey was in an interrogation and isn't the goal of an interrogation to extract information? And also, there's the Han reunion which I agree with the individual that it would have been more impactful had we seen Kylo then remove his helmet.

The moment working, given it is father and son and us seeing that he isn't scarred physically, as the movie led the audience to believe. And heck, imagine the conversation with that mask, when Rey overpowered him. Knowing he was normal, would have made that moment better.

 

The video doesn't sway the reason he took off the mask at all. Nor does it give a real good thought out reasoning of Kylo's own reactions and humanity. It's got nothing to do with what he is saying.

He actually unmasks for two people who are strangers to him and reacts totally different to both.

1. As I said he took it off to reveal he was a normal person for Rey even though she never asked him to take it off. He also acts confident, arrogant and proud,yet comfortable especially after reading her mind until she says he'll never be like Vader. So she may be a stranger but felt ok and fine to show himself to her.

2. Even though Han is his father, he unmasks for him after an order from him. Han is pretty much a stranger and a disappointment to him even though he is his father. And when he removes his mask for Han, he is totally different with him compared with Rey. He seems tormented, weak and hates himself with it off in front of Han.

I could count Snoke, but really in that regard he doesn't need a mask for Snoke because Snoke can read him with or without it.

So it isn't ridiculous at all for him taking it off. The contrast between Han and Rey is so wide and shows his humanity. And if he had had it on those times we'd have learned nothing from it. His facial expressions is downright telling.

 

Regarding taking off the mask...sometimes to understand why characters do something, you have to look beyond your initial like or dislike of it, and then ask yourself some deeper questions about it.

"What does this action reveal about the character and his/her arc?"
"How does this serve and fit in to the larger narrative?"
"Why would the character do this with this character but not another?"
"What is the symbolism behind this?"

Sometimes you just get dud answers, like for why Chewy and Leia didn't hug (director's mistake ), but more often you get a bigger picture of the character's motivations and how they fit into the overall story.

 

Yeah, no. While the guy had really absurd reasons in most of his video, his point was a very valid one.

1) You are just repeating your prior point and in turn, the guy's video disapproves that. Kylo maybe unstable, but really given this was an interrogation and Kylo wanted to be Vader; why would he decide to remove his own mask? If anything, what you stated could have easily been attained with the mask.

And knowing that he has a normal face, would have left the reaction to when Rey turns on Ren to be a lot more palpable. Because our imagination of his reaction in this instance would have been stronger than any emotion Driver(even though he's great) could have conjured. So really, the subtext that you cling onto could have remained. It is just left to the audience's imagination.

And that to me is a lot stronger than any facial emotion, or gesture one can come up with. At least in my view. Though, Driver does save this sequence quite a bit.

1. 2) Your second point doesn't change anything about what he stated. The humanity aspect was what that reveal meaning. And thus, any tension about who or what Kylo was is ruined due to him having seen the mask beforehand. Just imagine, we had gone through the movie without knowing what was under Kylo's mask. The expectation is that he is scared and that his copying of Vader isn't just him being a stroppy teenager, but more wanting to shun himself.

And then Han shows up: his own father and the one man who could reveal his humanity. And we got the reveal. It would have not only been shocking, but had we not seen Kylo's face would have made that moment with Rey a lot more palpable. And also, that weakness you described could have been stronger had Kylo kept the mask on. As I stated, the human imagination and us having preconceptions of Kylo's scared face and Rey turning that back on him.

And thus, rewatching the movie the audience knowing there is a human face, that scene takes on a whole new meaning.

But hey, if you enjoy that scene, be my guest. I just think that whole sequence, excellent dialogue aside, could have been handled better. And really, the reviewer had a good point in that aspect. Bright side, Driver manages to salvage that scene quite well due to his acting. Like most of the cast in the movie.

 

there's a sad irony that some fans treat Kylo Ren the same way he was likely treated in the gffa: insisting he must be something he simply is not.

 

How that makes me feel:

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 9, 2017 ---

We know why Han seeing Kylo Ren's unmasked face was important- because we had context, we knew who Kylo Ren actually was- Ben Solo, Han's son. It was also to use Adam Driver's acting chops for maximum impact- to see his indecision, pain and the turmoil inside him. He HAD to be unmasked in that scene.
But with Rey? He doesn't. Not really. There's no reason for him to show her, a scavenger from Jakku, the enemy, his face.

But remember, we only have 1/3 parts of this puzzle. The story isn't over yet. We don't have all the answers and so we don't know the significance of Rey being the first person (in the movie) to see Kylo Ren's face. And considering the fact that these two characters are tied together in some "mystical" way, I'm sure there was a reason JJ Abrams did that.

 

not to mention there's a (perhaps fair) assumption that Kylo Ren is consciously cultivating a "look" or "persona", but also that he's a person with sound judgment.
and yet there's zero evidence in anything he does in TFA to indicate his judgment is the least bit sound.

it's not that the movie is full of stupid choices. it's that Ren is full of stupid choices ~ hahahaha
but that's who he is.
(and why he just needs to go home)

 

Allow me to clarify; I am in no shape being critical of Driver(and by extension, all the actors)'s performance in this movie. In fact, it made those scenes tolerable. Because, that's one thing I will say about TFA: it is a very well acted SWs movie, especially in comparison to ANH. But really, in my view; the concept conveyed with Kylo Ren and his humanity could have been better introduced in this movie.

But for granted, I know there is TLJ and really, knowing that Rian Johnson is a much better director than JJ Abrams, I know he is going to extrapolate more on Kylo and the rest of the cast. Because, really; for me, I less hate TFA and more am disappointed. It was just a glorified TV pilot and really I consider the movie incomplete. And while I do not think that is good as someone who likes movies, I am more than willing to revise my stance on it once I see TLJ.

And to also be honest; Kylo Ren was the only character I genuinely liked. Ridley, Boyega and Isaac were fine acting wise, but their characters left a lot to be desired. Kylo Ren to me had the most going for him and while I have some disagreements with his character, his story is the one thing I am curious about.

And really, had RJ not directed, Kylo would have been the one character I'd be curious to check out.