Official Finn Episode VIII thread

you may be right about "the average moviegoer", but that's really unfortunate.
personally, "badassery" will never top any list of mine for what makes a legitimate hero.

 

But that's the type of movie that Star Wars is. If this were a political thriller or set during a revolution and Finn was still the indoctrinated soldier that said "no" to massacring civilians, we'd be having a different conversation.

But ultimately, Star Wars is a sci-fi action movie so like all action movies, its main characters are going to need something a little extra to make them stand out. What comes to mind is Captain America: The Winter Soldier near the climax of the movie where a no-name SHIELD techie has the incredible courage to refuse to launch the helicarriers, even with a gun to his head. And fans commend him for his courage, but ultimately the movie's about Steve and Natasha, in part because they have the abilities that make them stand out and able to take on a bunch of enemies in a cool manner. And most importantly, they also have the moral fortitude to refuse to launch the helicarriers in the techie's place, so he's in a way lesser than than Natasha and Steve even though you could argue that it's more courageous for him to not launch the ships as he doesn't have any powers or training to protect himself with.

Maybe Finn will be FS, maybe he won't be in Episode 8, but I'm really hoping the writers maintain the dual protagonist thing they've got going on with Finn and Rey and hopefully we'll see Finn either pick some more useful skills or we'll see him in action with a blaster more. The very short time we saw him with a blaster, he was dropping Stormtroopers left and right.

I think the strongest piece of evidence that Finn's FS is that he's noted to be in the top 1% of the Stormtroopers, which apparently in Rebels signifies Force Sensitivity.

 

So pretty much make him a hitman?

 

The point is that in order to be a 'bad-ass' you don't need the force, even in Star Wars.

 

@leopardhk47: i get what you're saying about sci-fi movies in general.
i just fundamentally disagree that it's badassery that makes heroes what they are.
Indiana Jones is kind of a klutz and got his ass kicked in every film. repeatedly.
no one would ever say he wasn't a great hero.

maybe badassey itself is a subjective term.

and even then, there's also what @Ammianus Marcellinus said:

 

A word of warning, this is a looooooooooooooooooooooooong post....

I plan to respond to the OP, but I wanted to respectfully reply to this because Pablo keeps coming up here in the forums as some kind of authority on everything in the new trilogy. I asked this in the Rey thread and the only response I got was because he sort of works for Lucasfilms/Disney and in the story group. However, I still believe people are putting far too much stock in what he says. Despite his twitter account saying he doesn't want things to be taken as authority. Someone explained this or showed another twitter message from him stating he didn't want random stuff he says to be seen on Wookiepedia or something to that effect. But to me that can be almost anything he says, including stuff about Star Wars. Especially when there are several aspects of the property in new production at the movement.

To be fair, yes, he is the author of the Star Wars: The Force Awakens Visual Novel and I'm sure he has some insider information, but let's be real here. He is not the end all be all of authority on the entirety of the upcoming Star Wars information. Much of what he says is his understanding while a lot of what he says can be misdirection. For instance:

He thought is not the same as it was. It's not a statement of confirmation from a position of authority. It's a statement of personal inference on Pablo Hildago's part yet people keep using this quote as to somehow indicate that Takodona/Hosnian Prime destruction and reaction sequence are somehow overly emphasized by Finn is FS proponents. Plus what I read about the guy and from his own admission, he is someone who mainly helps marry the old EU canon with the new EU canon, while at the same time producing written products and working on the overall story team. But he is not the end all be all of the final canon decisions nor do I think he has the authority to reveal production secrets before they are revealed in the canon. Hence, if Finn is FS and the production crew wants to play around with those controversial theories to keep people talking about SW until 2017, he won't come out and tell you either way. Nor will his written material come out and tell you before hand. Let me stress, I'm not saying Pablo Hildago may not have insider information, I'm saying I don't trust everything he says as the absolute authority on everything. Some things, probably, yes, other things, probably no. I personally believe that while he is a major player inside creative, he is externally a Public Relations/Marketing Agent who enjoys the attention and injecting his personal opinions on things to misdirect from any potential early non-production controlled spoiler releases...just my opinion.

Oh, he changed his twitter page notice to this, emphasis mine:

Still tho, let me reiterate again for people who want to keep quoting Pablo and prove that this is his personal assumption or to be fair, possibly him working off old information. I will speak on this below, emphasis is for emphasis and not to be arrogant. But again, the people are not screaming when Finn runs up to them to tell Han that the First Order attacked the Republic. If the people at the castle, as Pablo and so many want to argue, were just in a mass hysteria and screaming loud enough for Finn to hear them on the other side of the pond/lake where the ships land then why did they all of a sudden calm down when he runs over to them?

Also, arguing that Kylo's "It is you" to Rey at the end somehow excludes a potential for Finn to be Force Sensitive isn't a good argument in my opinion. First, Kylo already knew Rey was force sensitive way back when he tried to interrogate her and so did Snoke. So why all of a sudden at the end he makes that connection? Thus that interpretation of that statement doesn't make sense within the overall context of the film nor the novel. Secondly, this potentially takes it out of the immediate context of the events:

Remember just before Ren dueled against Finn, Ren had launched Rey into a tree with the force and incapacitated her. So the "It is you" there can contextually, within the immediate events, be read to mean he initially didn't think she had revived that fast.

Furthermore, if the film makers want to make Finn FS and have put nuggets in TFA to imply that, then the awakening Snoke and Ren spoke about earlier in the sequence of events would apply to Finn and anyone else who awakens to the force.

Lastly, for this response, both the novel(s) and the script, while informative in certain areas, both have discrepancies in them as well. Making it apparent they were written (obviously with he script, lol) before the final decision of the direction of the film. Some of the inconsistencies are minor, but the point here is the express the implication that the two (film and written products) don't match because of the early finalization of written material. (Case and point: Finn getting slashed across the back whereas in the novel he's takes a wound to the torso or chest and in the script it's also in the torso area). Furthermore, the whole "there can only be one" new Force user doesn't fit the implications behind The Force Awakens such as Snoke being afraid of more Jedi (plural) but why would he be afraid of just Rey and Luke? The title alone indicates the force is playing a major role in the new events and Solo's declaration exposing the reality of the force to Finn and Rey also implies there will be more than just one. Han spoke about Jedi in the plural (as in more than two) as well.

Now to the topic at hand:

FINN IS or WILL BE FORCE SENSITIVE​

Who is his primary antagonist?

This is hard to say. It depends on a lot, but to try my hand. Fair warning, although I order my thoughts in a numbered list, this is not to insinuate any particular importance of the order :

1) Phasma - I believe she has to play a particular part in Finn's growth as a character. Hands down. She will be important, however whether or not she will be his primary antagonist or a temporary one is up in the air. I can see her becoming important should Finn chose to face his past and try to discover his origins. Also, I could see a confrontation with her pushing Finn closer to accepting, understanding and utilizing the force. Especially if Episode VIII has him start of sort of like Rey in VII where he has more potential force use, but confusion around it until he's forced to use it. Phasma is supposed to be an elite trooper, so I imagine that, despite not having any experience fighting light side users, she's probably had some experience or observations of dark side users in the Knights of Ren.
2) General Hux - By his own admission and the admission of Kylo Ren, Hux is the mastermind behind the current Storm Trooper program and hence the kidnapping of children. Also, Finn's betrayal is a stain on Hux's record with the First Order. Despite his, from their perspective, success at destroying the Hosnian System, there is also a failure he and Ren share with the destruction of Star Killer. I perceive Hux will be out for vengeance, but this greatly depends on whether or not Hux will grow to be anything but a counterpart to Ren just as Tarkin was initially a counterpart to Vader.
3) Zeroes - I could get imaginative here because I see great potential with Zeroes. According to Before the Awakening, Finn's fire team had Slip, Zeroes and Nines. According to popular theory, Slip was the Trooper who died early on Jakku where Finn has his "awakening' in the film. Also, the trooper who bested him in melee combat on Takodona was officially said to be Nines. Nines was shot in the head by Han Solo. Therefore, Zeroes is the only one left. If the writers were imaginative enough to give Zeroes more of a personality beyond canon fodder, he could be taken under the wing of Phasma and both move to get revenge on Finn.
4) Random newly introduced Knight of Ren member - If Finn is FS he will need a counter FS opponent at some given time. If Kylo is reserved for Rey, then this is obvious that one of the Knights of Ren may turn out to be an antagonist for Finn.
5) Kylo Ren - Ren sees him as a traitor and a mistake since he left him escape twice, arguably three times when Finn wakes up. I don't see Kylo taking that too well when he sees Finn up and able in Episode VIII and beyond. Still tho, I do believe Ren will probably be mostly focused on Luke should he appear on the scene in a greater scale. Granted, I see the two, if Finn turns out to be canonically FS, having a dueling rematch. To which I hope Finn gets the upper-hand. I can express how this may go with the ESB question below.

Who will he train with?

Simple answer - Luke.
Complex answer - Maz and Luke. Maz, probably simply to sense the Force. Luke, more so from a perspective of Jedish tradition, culture, etc.
More complex imaginative answer - Force ghosts, ancient databases, etc. Meaning, he could be led by the force to stumble across an old Jedi temple. In the old EU's Dawn of the Jedi, the Talid Monks are called by Tor Yor, a pyramid ship, to Tython and in so many words are trained by the force to become the early Jed'aii. Of course, during this period they develop what becomes Light and Dark Force philosophy. However, the point stands, that they learned to be Jed'aii among themselves. As far as Force ghosts, it was implied through external interviews that Anakin's force ghost was supposed to be talking to Kylo Ren at times as Vader. For some reason, it was dropped from the film and storyline. However, it's implied by Ren's speech to the Vader helmet. Still tho, it's canon that the force ghost exist and can interact with the living from the Original Trilogy. Considering Alec Guiness past away 16 years ago, it's evident that if this happens it will be McGregor as Obi-Wan and he was called in to do some dialogue for TFA in Rey's Force Vision. Either way, people are asking the question about a potential appearance of Obi-Wan in Episode VIII. There's also Yoda, and I'm sure Liam Neelson has some Qui-Gon Jinn still left in him as a force ghost. I'm sure he wants to redeem himself for pushing Anakin as the fulfillment of that prophecy and he may see potential in Finn as a redemptive measure for himself.

What Luke Skywalker ESB moment do you want for the character?

I'm not certain I want an Empire Strike Back moment for him, he had too many defeats in The Force Awakens. I believe Rey should take on the defeats in Episode VIII and Finn becomes her savior this time around. Here is where my idea could work if I were writing Episode VIII. Rey gets whooped by Kylo, Luke is probably busy dealing with Snoke. Kylo is gloating in his victory over Rey after his failure on Star Killer. In comes Finn just as Kylo is about to deliver the fatal blow to an unconscious Rey or apprehend her in order to deliver her to Snoke for torture and/or seduction to the dark side. Finn and Kylo go at it. Kylo is surprised at Finn's new skill with a saber, particularly his new access to the force. Just like with Rey, he did not suspect Finn was FS until he starts to display the force. Kylo goes into the match completely confident. Finn pulls out all the stops, saber skills, blaster skills and the force and manages to save Rey in the end. Their duel can go either way. Finn gains a small victory, fends of Kylo long enough to escape with Rey or Poe, or someone else, potentially a new character to grab Rey. Or the two fight to a stalemate and the situation allows an escape. Either way, Kylo realizes he has two adversaries, other than Luke, on the light side by the end of Episode VIII.

What kind of darker themed story can you imagine for him?

Again, I felt Finn ending in a coma in TFA was dark enough for him. However, considering the official report is that the new installment would be darker. I would rather Finn be the "hope" of Episode VIII while everyone else falls into disarray and doubt due to the losses. But, Finn, coming out on top at the last minute turns out to be the hope and possibly the one keeping Rey from descending into her anger and the dark side. Also, if we have to have darkness for him, I'd rather it be a loss from an emotional sense. Something along the lines of maybe he finds his parents only to have them robbed from him by the First Order or something like that. No more general victories for him, he needs direct victories in this installment. I have to agree with the people who said this in the other thread.

When do you think he will have his Rematch?

Possibly Episode VIII if what I imagine happens or some resemblance of it.

When do you think his cybernetics will play into the story?

This is assuming he needs cybernetics. I don't think he needs cybernetics. Impersonal supernatural force, remember. The force can heal. Still tho, this is assuming he's suffered some serious damage that warrants cybernetics. I believe story-wise, he's in a chrysalis coma. Personally, since I'm Finn is FS, I believe it to be Force induced. If we have Rey automatically knowing how to use the Force then why can't we have Finn go into a Force coma where he's taught the force by the mysterious force, if that's the excuse for Rey...and it's heavily implied...then Finn can go into a force coma and come out a Force using, saber wielding, fighting machine. (No pun intended regarding, "machine." Also, don't take that literally as a contradiction to my answer.)

Where do you see the battle of Light and Dark taking him?

I personally hope he plays middle ground while leaning more towards the light side. I would rather seem as an anchor for Rey who according to the novel and script, gave into anger. Even if it doesn't go that way I can see them both learning to overcome their feelings instead of allowing them to control them. Finn - fear. Rey - anger. Although, from the movie's perspective, Rey - fear as well. She feared being left on Jakku and I suspect when she awoke and saw Finn get cut down by Kylo, she feared loosing him too, especially after he came back for her unlike her parents. Still, as Yoda said, Fear inevitably leads to Hate and Anger. However, fear seems to drive Finn towards bravery and he seems to be more in control of his fear.

Where do you want to see the character display his powers?

At a clutch moment. Hands down. However, I wouldn't mind seeing him accidentally use the force. This brings to mind something someone humorously said in the other Finn thread. "If Finn happens to force pull or force push an object the Anti-FS Finn crowd will blame it on the wind." I forgot who said that tho...

Why do you feel the character is worth 40% of the screen time?

I know some people were disappointed with Finn in TFA and while I can sometimes vehemently argue against those people...I can understand their opinion. It took some time and while I disagree overall with them, I can see what they're saying to a degree. Still tho, Finn was the hero of the movie. Without him the events of them movie, more or less, would not have transpired. Poe would still be in the custody of First Order. BB-8 would've been captured. Rey potentially dead and Star Killer going wild throughout the galaxy and the Resistance in shambles.

He deserves to continue to be the co-lead. That's 50% of screen time, not 40% if I can be nit picky about this. I won't rant any further about people caught in Old Trilogy ideals and "there can only be one" mentalities and this must be a Skywalker story prejudices.

Why do you think he will or won't be a Jedi?

I feel I spoke on this to some great length. Not to toot my own horn or self promote, but to keep this already lengthy post from being longer. I'll simply repost my write up on this. FAIR WARNING FOR THOSE WHO DON'T TAKE SARCASM WELL, BE AWARE, THIS INCLUDES SOME SARCASM IN IT BECAUSE I RESPONDED IN KIND TO THE SARCASM OF ANTI-FS FINN PEOPLE: Why I think Finn is FS.

Oh, but your question was why will he or won't he be a Jedi. Doh.
I can go either way on the Jedi Knighthood. I just want him to be FS and wield a light saber and do some force things.
Still tho, the implications within the story make it evident there will be more than one Jedi. So why not Finn? Why not Poe? Why not Leia? Why not random new characters? To make a Jedi Order, or new Jedi in plural whom would challenge the plurality of the Knights of Ren...more than two, more than three, actually beyond the vision we don't know how many Knights there are to date...still tho, you need more than one or two Jedi.

How do you think his lineage comes into play? Does it matter?

I don't think it matters. However, he could be a Windu, Leonis (SW: Rebels) or any one of the dark skinned groups of force sensitive peoples running around. Still tho, I feel J.J. expressed he wasn't making force lineage or scientifically dependent when it came to new people being sensitive to it. Not to say one or two can't be from a lineage tho.

How do you feel the darker themed story will effect him?

This depends a lot on what happens, but I would point you back to my response to the other dark themed question.

 

Probably one of the few call backs that I would allow in Ep.VIII, god help them if they throw as much nostalgia in this film as they did in TFA.

As for Phasma, there's just no way they could ever make her an appealing or noteworthy character for me. It's clear that they had no big plans for her and her being made Finn's nemesis would show that they have no big plans for him. I mean Finn had a great deal of build up with Kylo throughout TFA but the natural assumption, indeed the general assumption in Finn threads here, is that they won't have a "rematch", as it is termed, because that's Rey's conflict now. You know the main plot line. So why did we have all those significant looks between Kylo and Finn to have it come to naught? We can only assume that it was part of Operation: RED HERRING.

To put it simply, you can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies and who here can honestly say that having Phasma as an enemy would be a good reflection on Finn?

Do we all actually agree on what "the Everyman" character is? I only ask because whenever I google it the definition seems to vary between a supporting character who simply provides the point of view in the narrative; an ordinary/average person; a blank slate who the audience can insert themselves into. Even Boyega doesn't seem to be sure but he would probably say the second definition.

Anyway, I always assumed the attraction of the Everyman was watching the character go from being crap to being awesome/badass, and I don't mean awesome as in "isn't it awesome how he stood up to that Big Bad before he got slaughtered". I'm assuming from reading most of the Finn threads that people also agree with this idea of the Everyman progression. No one wants Finn going around shouting "Man, are you crazy?!" "Lets get the hell out here" "Aww, hell nah!!!" all the time, right? Right?

I'm also not sure Finn is the best example of the "Everyman", nor is Han for that matter, despite the actors themselves describing the characters as such. Finn was raised from birth to be a soldier, that's hardly "average joe" is it? I guess I'm just confused by this everyman concept.

As to the FS Finn discussion, it will go on inexorably until Ep.VIII or even Ep.IX depending upon how those films handle the issue. You might as well ask Rey fans not to talk about her parentage. But it wouldn't hurt to have a break now and then.

 

This is 100% why Finn as the lead needs more growth and why those who like him as he is (without any addition growth throughout the trilogy) are missing the point.

 

Man, I love Finn! Fantastic 1b lead character!

I just think for the story's sake, going from a redemptive first order trooper to a resistance leader hero is more realistic than him suddenly also realizing he has force powers, train, and be a side kick to Rey. It's too Obi-Anakin for me as it would play out on screen. I think though, that we have better surprises in store for us from Johnson and Trevorrow. .

 

to be fair i don't think anybody has asserted that Finn shouldn't have growth throughout the trilogy. liking him as he was in TFA is about who he was in TFA. he'll be someone different in viii by necessity. we just have different ideas as to the direction of that growth.

 

I forgot to point out in my long reply how ironically funny this was.

As to the "everyman" thing you guys are discussing. I agree with Just Passing Through. The definition seems to be a moving target and heavily based on personal preference. I would argue with those who equate Finn to Han or point out that Boyega makes the comparison himself that depending on how you look at Han's characterization...other than a lack of clear FS, there are some Jedi who fit that personality type. I could argue for Prequel Obi-Wan being one of them. Although, not completely roguish, just sarcastically apparent. Just my opinion tho.

 

Well the most advisable thing to do is not to pull the "force sensitive" not "force sensitive" into a discussion which belittles peoples arguments ("missing the point"). No one is saying your arguments for Finn being Force sensitive don't make sense or are "missing the point" simply because many people would find it indecent to break down an argument (yours) which took such thought and effort to create. Me and others can destroy the entire Force-Finn argument if we want to but won't do so again precisely because many of us feel this thread would be better off when it does not reiterate the same discussion which dominates the VII thread. That particular discussion quickly got confrontational and personal for whatever reason and involved some zealous policing by lurkers which included "if you don't want Finn to be Force Sensitive you're not a Finn fan" and "J.J. is racist".

Indeed, why are we are not discussing Finn's actual story in the next movie if we keep arguing about whether Finn is force sensitive or not. Aren't there other topics to discuss? Like, will Finn return to his place of origins? Or what does the drafting of stormtroopers tell us about Finn's backstory and people and what would this tell us about his arc in 8 and 9. How will the relation between Finn and Rey work out? Will Finn ever return to the First Order? What are Finn's motives and personal conflicts.?Those kind of things.

 

You may believe that he warrants more growth in future movies, but I assure you there are many who think he's right where he needs to be. That is who I'm talking about.

 

This may just be me but I always thought of Obi-Wan and Anakin, in the PT that is, as more equal in terms of plot importance and character relationship than Han and Luke ever were. To me Han was very much more of a side kick to Luke than Obi-Wan was to Anakin.

 

i'm sorry, i'm not sure i understand what you're saying. maybe it'd be helpful to try to talk about stuff without generalizations?
i can't say what others think or speak to that. i can only speak to what i think.

i think all characters grow. it's part of storytelling. and to clarify: it's not that Finn "warrants" it as if by some necessity for failure, it's just the natural progression.

human beings who don't grow stagnate. i doubt Finn will stagnate. He will be changed by his experience in TFA.
i'm looking forward to what those changes might be. i hope his essential heroic nature will remain intact (i suspect it will).

 

Respectfully, I think you're going to have to come to terms with the Finn is FS or Finn is not FS debate. It's going to rage until the movies prove either side wrong or right.

I personally think some of the argumentation of the Anti-FS proponents is weak and I respectfully argue my point while being fully capable of accepting someone's disagreement of my view.

This isn't directed at you, but those who believe what you're saying. If they believe that, it's kind of silly. A stale character adds stagnation to the story. He's part of the story, therefore, if he doesn't grow, he brings the story down. If these people want a good Star Wars story, then they want all of the characters to be dynamic and developed.

This is the problem I have with people stuck in Old Trilogy thinking or Theatrical Canon Elitism. The expanded universe has a heavy dose of material to utilize in which Finn can be built upon if the production crew do not invoke originality. One being a character of the same name: Finn, who also didn't display FS until late in age. One can only imagine how much inspiration for the new Finn they could pull from this one. We don't know new Finn's background, could he be royalty like Finn Galfridian? Could the First Order have invaded his home planet, killed his family and saw him as spoils of their conquest?

Optimistic as it may be, but the ideas are out there for growing Finn beyond the Han Solo/Rogue/Trooper/Guy with a gun trope or continual indirect hero concept.

 

You don't need the force to grow as a character and personality. I agree with the above stormtrooper.

So, change of paradigm. How was Finn drafted into the first order? Is Finn going home in VIII?

 

Hey preacher, I'm choir.

I get that you understand that concept. Again, I'm talking about others who do not. Who see Finn as the comedic relief and/or those who believe he will not survive 8.

 

I see what you're saying, I'm just thinking of screen dynamics. I also noticed Finn's comic relief in TFA is very good, and I do still see that being a part of VIII.I guess we'll see how it plays out.

 

If someone says Finn was the comic relief in TFA that person is basically saying that he or she didn't think anything else or any other character was funny. If I would apply that standard then Chewie is comedic relief, Han is comedic relief, Rey is comedic relief, the stormtroopers are comedic relief, Poe is comedic relief, Maz is comic relief, C3P0 is comedic relief, BB8 etc.

They were all equally funny, but for some mysterious reason people like to pick Finn as the comedic relief character. That's odd, very odd. The same goes for the category "clumsy". Why is Finn the "clumsy" character when some of the other main characters make just as many clumsy mistakes. The only scene where Finn is portrayed as "unknowledgable" or "clumsy" is when he has to hand one of the parts Rey needs, the other he knows, not just that one part. Rey on the other hand is so clumsy to release the Rathars and Han.....well.....I don't even know where to begin