Official Finn Episode VIII thread

True of some support characters and side characters? Probably. True of the leads? Probably not.

It's work to find sensible ground and able partners in a debate on this forum, not simply this thread. You are obviously free to choose to engage (or not engage) for whatever reason you choose, but if you make it a point to deliberately articulate those reasons, they are fair game for scrutiny (IMO)

Because people on this board are really invested in silencing debate and points they don't want to hear. I am reasonably confident that a number of people who have misrepresented themselves as Finn fans, have done so in an effort to inoculate themselves from criticism, while looking to silence critiques aimed at seeing the character improve. There were plenty of people who did not want a black Storm Trooper, a Black Jedi lead, etc. This isn't new information. We don't think those people simply disappeared and changed their minds after the premiere of TFA.

You say Finn got sidelined in TLJ (I agree, but this one issue among other things). There are people who will argue that you just didn't understand TLJ and are too beholden to your own head canon to see how great his arc was

Perhaps, but that's where we are. People lie and misrepresent themselves. Skepticism is a natural consequence of all that.

LFL is doing themselves no favor in this regard. Rian himself (answering questions on Twitter) said that Finn was very much a lead. You saw TLJ. Did that seem like the arc of a lead? Being sidelined. We're not even talking about being a Jedi, Special Forces, or just Han 2.0, we're looking at Finn go on a pointless mission, having his past disregarded, and decisions informed principally by someone else's past and ethical framework, and then... then what was apparently supposed to be the high water mark for Finn in this movie, choosing to join the Resistance. A decision that has no emotional impact or significance because he made it based on someone's else view, and there was nothing at stake whether he chose it or not. We are not even getting to debate head canon, we have to deal with a character being overtly plot driven and making decisions that defy logic if TFA is to be believed. The studio signed off on this. The studio (I am certain heard cries of Mary Sue) also ensured that in this movie, every male lead in this movie is lectured to by a woman character. When someone accuses LFL of using Star Wars as a vehicle to spread political dogma - they will now have evidence to support their assertion whereas before it would have just been a wild baseless claim. Does that prove there are agendas? No. But it can easily be said that the specter of there being one is now strengthened.

I liked what they could have been. Poe's arc is the only one I liked without qualms in TFA (so you can imagine the side-eye I did when I saw how he was written in TLJ). I would have loved to have seen Ren have the conviction that he had at the end of TLJ, in TFA and only show him weak and blubbering as a flashback. He's done terrible things, but he lacks menace. I've already discussed my myriad issues with Finn. With Rey, I wasn't terribly invested in her being a Skywalker, I could see that the studio was trying to tie off that thread. But I think they create a logic hole in why the Force chose her if she has no tie to the Skywalker lineage. I was hoping she would have a Satele-like arc, but honestly her arc feels just as ruined as Finn's. No explanation for her vision in TFA, no in-movie explanation for her skills, unrealistic proficiency in everything, it's like they're trying to do their best to make people dislike her. I think this middle saga has doomed the ST. Even if EPIX turns out to be great, I just don't think it can pull together what was left in TFA, smooth over what was problematic in TLJ, provide the challenge to overcome that TLJ couldn't be bothered to supply, tell the story of how the challenge was overcome, and create an ending that makes people want to see more.

 

firstly, "lead" is a word invented by hollywood to placate fragile actor egos. we could probably debate who the leads are in the ST til the cows come home.

no argument there. but i think it's also fair of me to say that if i provide my reasons and someone says i'm not being honest about them, then there seems little point in furthering the discussion.

maybe so. again, that's a pretty dark assumption to foist on everyone, though. and unfair in my estimation. but again, you're absolutely free to exercise your cynicism.

well, if we disagree from the premise of liking/disliking TLJ or not seeing eye-to-eye on its arcs, then maybe this isn't such a bad point of departure. the problem is people saying: "you just don't understand TLJ" instead of what really should be stated, which is: "you just don't understand TLJ in the way that i do." two people who understand a movie from two completely different perspectives can come away with completely different interpretations of Finn and neither of them are necessary wrong because in the end it's about personal resonance, which is not (and never will be) universal.

i'm sorry about that. i can't spackle over the world's problems, i can only state my own mind.

it had no emotional impact or significance for you, and for a number of other fans who agree on this point. from my perspective:

1. again: lead, is a misleading term. it set expectations that aren't fair. yes, that's on the industry, but fans share it for not adjusting expectations after TFA.
2. regarding expectations: they don't have to be head canon to be expectations that disappoint us. again: i wanted Poe and Finn to have an adventure and didn't get it. i don't think we needed Rose in this movie at all. unfortunately, that's what we got. if not for Rose, i would have felt more continuity with Finn's development through Poe. as it was, i still think Finn's moment of attacking the FO was bold and scary and wonderful. and i'm okay with him being thwarted from it as well. just wish it had been Poe all the way through guiding and stopping him in the end.
   
3. men being lectured to by women? like women have been lectured to by men for 100 years of movie-making? why not just superior officers lecturing their subordinates? no, let's just call it "political dogma" and be dismissive about it because it's maybe even the spectre of an agenda.

i know you say you're not nursing head canon, but again, you're definitely nursing expectations. when you say Ren lacks menance, it's because you expect the villain of the story to be scary. is that a fair desire and expectation? yes, partly. is that what we got in TFA? not remotely. so again, going into TLJ, i feel like a lot of people were thinking: well, Ren will/must be scarier than ever! rather than thinking: man, that guy's a mess and he's just going to continue to unravel. same with Rey. she's not allowed to just be a Force prodigy. a child can play Beethoven at age three, but Rey's not allowed to lift rocks at age 20. whether you cared if she was a Skywalker or not, you expect there to be an explanation for her Force powers even though Star Wars has never really explained or codified anything about the Force and it's been handled with complete slapdash application pretty much across the board from day one.

you think it's all doomed and i'm sorry for that, truly. i like the characters, i like their story, i want Finn in particular to get on his feet now, though have adjusted my expectations to assume that he will play a ground-fighting support role to whatever space battle force nonsense may be going on overhead. i'm hopeful that doesn't reduce him, but that he will have a real chance to shine in the next movie the way Poe did in TLJ.

has the ST been a bit rocky and woggly as far as the characters and concepts are concerned? sure! so was the OT, frankly. i'm not going to hold this to standards it has never intended to meet. i continue to watch it with the wonder of my child self who saw ANH in the theatre in the summer of 77, and appreciate that there's sufficient pseudo-sophistication in there to spark my old person self as well.

 

People continue to use the excuse that it wasn't good for you. China didn't like it, and it had nothing to do with it being Star Wars. They didn't like it for the same reasons Americans didn't like it. People know when they are being insulted.

 

That has NOTHING to do with the movie getting kicked out of theaters after two weeks, but I hear you.

 

Keep it up. You are showing your true colors. If you want to appeal to the Asian market you give them a character Asians would gravitate towards. What so hard about that? You are so caught up into color or a look that you don't realize the argument is larger than that.

 

@Rayjefury fury I disagree with you on Poe in TFA,. He didn't have an arc in that film, he just had a mission.

TLJ is the first film that gave him an arc.

In TFA, he was essentially a Finn supporting character.

 

Let me say this:
Before the Awakening is a canon source of information according to LucasFilm. In that book it is explicitly stated that Finn (then FN-2187) scored in the top 1 percent in all of his training exercises. I'm not making this up, it's in the book, in case anyone wants to try and accuse me of making stuff up. Finn being an above averaged soldier is set up in the canon. Ignoring the Force stuff for a moment, why is it that even expecting Finn to be "above-average soldier" is looked at as expecting too much from these films?
Finn was a main character in TFA that mattered to the plot. He has always been referred to as a lead by everyone involved with these films that have spoken about them. Now all of a sudden even that is misleading, according to some people and we shouldn't even expect him to be treated with respect worthy of a lead character. To top it off, we've heard over and over how having the force doesn't matter when it comes to lead character status after TFA and now after TLJ people have changed and now the Force designates you as a lead character. Looks like a lot of moving of the goalposts to me. It's funny that the goalposts are always moved enough to support the idea that Finn doesn't really matter. Is it any wonder that people are skeptical when someone says they like Finn but they always manage to devalue him to what amounts to a bit player or outright exclude him in speculation?

 

My issue with Kelly was how she was written. She wasn't given anything interesting to do, so it's hard to like her as a character. She has no personality of her own. If she was written as a free thinker doing her own thing that would have been more appealing. After all this is suppose to be a space movie. There needs to be other factions in this besides the FO and the Resistance. In the Aftermath Life Debt book it explained the transition from the Empire to the new system wasn't a smooth process. The Empire had everything under control where the Rebels didn't. If Rose was written as a character who was affected by the transition this could have opened up the story. She could have been part of a group trying to help others when the new government couldn't help them. It seems the Resistance is going to have to depend on outsiders in Episode IX anyway. Episode VIII should have at least given us a glimpse into some of these other groups.

 

It focused on the Resistance because it's Leia's baby, her legacy.

She built it from the ground up.

So we got a film that focused on that.

Huh? Han was a lead and not force sensitive.

So wouldn't Han be a goalpost?

 

The second film is supposed to focus on the How. How did the characters get where they are? How come Rey is so strong with the force? How did Finn break his conditioning? How did the FO become the army it is today? Those are questions that needed to be answered more than what's going on with the 20 people left with the Resistance. Leia and the Resistance are support characters to Rey and Finn.
There is a galaxy out there that should be affected by the FO, but where is it? How do you expect people to understand the need to fight when they don't see the conditions that the people and aliens are living under?
What was so important about Leia that needed to be told? Many people didn't like it, because it went nowhere.
The characters of Canto Bight were oblivious to the destruction of 5 planets. If the characters in the movie aren't affected by what happens then how can the audience feel the weight? Between knowing more about the Resistance or the FO I bet most if not all people would tell you they would rather hear about the FO.

 

Not cynicism, skepticism.

No fundamental disagreement here

I'm not sure why you're making this point but I'll respond to it. On this forum alone the following threads contain a total of 423 unique responses

What's your favourite TLJ-Quote? (89)
Worst and Best Scenes (112)
What are your favorite moments in TLJ? (222)

In these threads people had the opportunity to freely speak to what moments mattered to them, you know how often Finn's Rebel Scum moment was referenced? Once. 423 responses and it is mentioned exactly ONE time. If you search the entire forum you'll see other references to it, there's a total of 3 pages worth of threads you'd need to navigate out of 70 total pages, and many of the times where it is referenced, it is with a negative connotation (I know, because I made many of those posts).

I think my assertion that this scene had little emotional impact or significance, is probably more than just an opinion, and something we can observe in our interaction here. But you are obviously welcome to take a different view.

1. We can say male protagonist instead and you could still make the argument that it is misleading and setting expectations that aren't fair. I don't think the vocabulary is the problem here.
2. And sometimes a movie can just miss the mark, and not liking it can be driven by bad story telling, bad acting, and/or bad direction.
3. Was this a predetermined response? I'm asking because it doesn't look like your addressing what I'm saying, it looks like your addressing a response that you anticipated happening. We aren't debating the existence or history of sexism in cinema, the question was is SW providing a vehicle by which people will claim (with substantiation) that is pushing political dogma. "Why not superior officers lecturing their subordinates?" Because Rose is not Finn's superior officer. Rey is not Luke's superior officer. Rey is not Kylo's superior officer. As I said, the male leads were all lectured to by women. And I am not the only one that has made this observation.

Interesting. If I were to equivalently say:
"I know you say you're a Finn fan, but again, you're definitely expressing some "Lesser Finn" sentiments".
Would that be cool? I'm guessing not.

I think what I expressed was a preference to have Ren be menacing the whole time; not that it was my expectation. He lacked menace until the end of TLJ. Since we are on the topic of expectations let me clarify what mine actually are for a villain. In an ideal setting I'd want a villain to be: committed, unwavering, focused and intelligent. The "scariness" isn't a goal, it's a result of the villain embodying the aforementioned attributes backed by some terrible power. Thusly, I found Krennic menacing. Same with Snoke and Sidious. Kylo was merely dangerous; a child with a match and a truck full of dynamite, just as likely to kill himself and his allies as he was his enemy. Until he killed Snoke he didn't show commitment, he wavered, he was unstable. And this is precisely why I think anyone holding out hope of Ben's redemption is probably "swimming against the current". He has supplanted Snoke as THE Big Bad. He is committed and unwavering now. And there are few (if any) pathways to him feeling sentiment that would unravel who he has become. He will die the villain he is.

Star Wars has never really explained or codified anything about the Force? I do not think I could disagree more. I may not like all their explanations (I mean who likes the Midichlorian idea - anyone?), but they absolutely exist. The pathway to competent Force Usage has ALWAYS involved training. Every Jedi, every Sith has had a master, and had training. Luke, Obi Wan, Qui Gon, Dookou, Maul, Vader, Sidious, Kylo... ALL of them had training. In the video games stories, in the comic books, in the animated series, in the Episodic movies; training. We are talking a time span that covers thousands of years in-universe, and now suddenly with the ST, we are to suspend our already suspended disbelief with no further explanation? Yes I expect some continuity in a movie franchise that seems to be predicated on preserving continuity as one of their features. The PT doesn't change the OT. Rogue 1 doesn't change ANH. The ST can certainly expand the GFFA but if they aren't going to obey the rules that they establish govern this galaxy prior to the ST, the VERY least they could do is come up with a competent and coherent story that explains why it's changed and put it in the movie.

I have said on several occasions it was ridiculous (and a miss on the OT's part) that Leia was never depicted as an active Force User, she is the daughter of the Chosen one, why would she NOT be a Force User? But the flight through space coupled with no explanation of how she is able to do so is ridiculous. The stable boy pulling the broom to himself? Ridiculous. I give Maz a pass because she doesn't display any overt Force abilities on screen in the official movie. Rey completing an act that we have had demonstrated in other movies requires training and mastery to do? Ridiculous. Anakin was a prodigy and the Chosen One, did we see him lift an avalanche?

Things can absolutely change; the technology (on both sides) has evolved almost every movie. But the assertion that now suddenly people can use the Force without training and without competent explanation is ridiculous. Hell I would have accepted Yoda answering Luke's question about "then it really is time for the Jedi to end" to say "it's time for the Jedi to change, because all things change, even the nature of the Force". Yoda being Yoda he probably would have said it, "time it is, for the Jedi to change, because change all things do, even the nature of the Force". But it seems if we follow your argument in favor of Rey lifting the rock slide, there was no need for her to take the Jedi text... right? She's a prodigy, what would she need them for?

You know it's funny (and this is NOT a critique aimed at you at all). You have been consistently saying that you like Finn and that he was sidelined in TLJ. Here you are saying you'd like for him to get on his feet (implying he wasn't on his feet in TLJ, which I agree he wasn't). But no one is refuting you when you say it. I haven't seen a single voice disagreeing with you saying he was "sidelined" and "off his feet". It is so interesting to watch dynamics on a message board sometimes.

As for will he be reduced? I think he already has been; I think Rian effectively establishes his ceiling by imagining his next big step is going from fighting along side the Resistance, to fighting with the Resistance. And as people are more honestly pointing out now, being a Force User has always been a pseudo prerequisite for remaining central to the story. He isn't this generation's Han, he's this generation's Lando... involved in the story, but definitely on the periphery (and minus the piloting skills so I am dubious on his prospects going forward).

Realistically, there have been land battles with ground troops that have mattered (Hoth, Geonosis, Scariff ) but all of these are Pre-Death Star, Pre-SKB, Pre-Dreadnought battles. When you can obliterate targets (and whole planets) from space, the emphasis on ground troops seems far less important (like trench war fare after the advent of tanks); technology sometimes relegates certain approaches to war obsolete. So maybe he becomes a pilot or maybe he stays on the ground and simply goes on "missions" again. That seems to be their favored plot vehicle for him; go on a mission for the Resistance. I have very low expectations for Finn and so in some ways, I am far less likely to be disappointed by what happens in EPIX than you will since you actually are hoping for something more.

 

i just know what i think.

just out of curiosity, i looked at the "What are your favorite moments in TLJ" thread and it looks like i never even answered the question myself. i got distracted by my excitement for the fact of Snoke being killed (another unpopular aspect of TLJ, i've since learned). i will say that in a movie in which one thing might easily overshadow everything else (like the Praetorian fight or the kamikaze run), it's not a measure of whether people like Finn that his own moments don't rise above. you specifically also mentioned his moment with Phasma, which for me isn't his high tide (i'd say it's his run at the cannon on Crait), but again, that's because we're looking at the film from very different perspectives.

1. i think it is for some people.
2. i don't disagree, but in the case of TLJ, there's the story we got and the story people think we should have got. and a lot of people don't understand the difference. it's like your explanation of what you want from a villain. this was never going to be that kind of story. so on the one hand, i can understand why people are confused or disappointed with Kylo Ren, but on the other hand, at some point the audience needs to bring themselves to the story that's being told, period. i think to some degree people have the same problem with Finn. i came in to TFA with zero expectations or hopes or preconceptions about leads or FS or where the story might be going. i knew there was a black stormtrooper and a girl and a stupid-looking villain in a little black dress. i came away loving all of them in completely unexpected ways.
3. i was thinking about Holdo and Leia (and to be honest, to some degree Rose: she's "formal" Resistance whereas Finn is on the fence and hasn't committed yet). also, Rey has been lecturing everyone since TFA, so that's just her personality. and to be fair, Luke and Ren lectured Rey right back (though Ren gets called "abusive" for doing it, so go figure). my point is that i didn't see women lecturing men. i saw everyone get hosed in this movie (except maybe Rose to some degree, but i've already said i agree we didn't need her).

i honestly don't understand what you mean by this. i don't understand "lesser Finn" or how this even correlates to what i said, but maybe what i said was muddled or misconstruable in some fashion?

we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one because i feel like the powers and the training and the specific abilities are all over the place and make zero sense if you were to try to map them or apply logic to them. like someone else said in another thread: Ren turned on the lightsaber and killed Snoke from a distance; how silly that Force users don't just freeze each other or turn off each other's light sabers or throttle one another from a distance and never even need to make contact to begin with?

and to be clear, i'm totally okay with it being completely slapdash. it doesn't bother me at all. but there's certainly no point arguing about it because no one will convince me that any of it makes any formal standardized sense. and specifically with regard to training: again, if a child can be a musical or mathematical prodigy at the age of 3, or if Luke can deflect blaster fire blindfolded after 15 minutes with Obi-Wan, then Rey lifting rocks after a single conversation with Luke seems fair game to me.

because he was. that's not the issue. you said no one is interested in Finn and i said: i like him, but don't like this thread because you can't post to it without people assuming you have an agenda, knocking you down because you actually do like Finn (even now, though i just ignore it because you and i are having a civil conversation instead of just grousing and sniping pointlessly), or just generally having to swim against a tide of toxic disgruntlement. do they like Finn more than they like Luke or Rey or Ren? that, i don't know. but if people are super excited about Rey they might not bother to come talk about Finn even though they like him. i love Poe and have nothing to share about him except: hey, i love Poe! not a lot of people talk about Poe. that doesn't mean he's a bad character or not interesting. there's just other, more pressing topics. it's fair enough to be disappointed that Finn isn't the most pressing topic, but that still doesn't de facto make him a bad character about whom nobody is interested.

full disclosure, i don't really know where i rank him on my own scale, though i easily put Ren and Poe at the top. Finn's probably third for me, but largely because i agree that TLJ didn't give him cool enough things to do. so yes, it's easy for me to say: well, rather than fuss with this thread, i'll just spend all my time talking about Kylo Ren. which, to be perfectly honest is literally what happened with me personally on this board. i registered, i posted to the Finn thread, saw that people were angry at things i couldn't even conceive, and i bailed to find friendlier waters. because life is too short to spend being bombarded by people who hate, question, and denigrate your personal "i like this" opinion.

i can't conjecture where this is going (it's not in my nature), but the idea of established ceilings is foreign and weird to me. again, it's like saying: well, Hux can never be an effective villain because he was just a joke in TLJ. i look at Hux and his last glowering moment and i think: Hux is going to be out for blood come ix; he's the one we should all be worried about. but people have written him off as if his story is effectively done now. i look at Finn and think: wow, okay, Luke "identifies" him as the leader of war; the new Han Solo (the general, the scrapper). Poe is the new Leia (the diplomat, the figurehead), and Rey is the new Luke (the...jedi; yawn). that seemed very clear to me and i'm excited about it. but again, Han was my favorite character in the OT, so Finn taking the Han role would be exciting to me.

as for the overall Force user thing, you're probably right? me personally, i could give a crap about the Force user aspect of Star Wars, but i know i am way down in the majority on that note. i will always love the non-FS people more than the FS people in Star Wars (Han: still my favorite). Darth Vader was maybe an exception and Ben Solo is obviously an exception, but i can say quite honestly, that in both cases, it was never their FS that made them interesting to me. and frankly, if Finn had shown himself to be FS in TFA after we already knew Rey was FS, i probably would have rolled my eyes (just like i rolled them when Snoke said Ren was Han's son).

anyway, whether you believe it or not, i still love Finn. and i still hope he and Poe work together in IX, and i still hope Finn will have his time to shine. i have no problem admitting that Johnson was perhaps too enamored of Ren Ben in TLJ to the detriment of too much else. with Abrams back to write and direct, i'm confident we'll see more balance in the characters. it ain't over til it's over. : D

 

I guess Lucasfilm forgot to ask you what the movie was "supposed to focus on" before they started production.

This is explained in the film. It's the will of the force. Which after eight episodes and one spin off film doesn't really need much more explanation.

Those are questions you needed answered. In a story about a young woman becoming a Jedi those are questions that aren't necessary. Just like "How did Han become a smuggler" and "How was the Empire formed" were questions that were necessary to tell the story of Luke becoming a Jedi in the OT.

 

So if you agree with the fact that all the characters, including Finn, got hosed, then why do you have a problem with people expressing disappointment? Furthermore why then did you write this seemingly contradictory part?:

By this argument, we can argue that no one should ever critique the writing or direction of any of the characters.

Saying characters got hosed seems very close to implicitly confirming that you did, contrary to the former quote, have at least some expectations for the characters. I don't know if you simply misused the term but when the term "hosed" is used it usually means that some event happened to someone or something else that should not have happened to them.
For example: In soccer when a player makes a legal tackle but the official says the tackle wasn't legal and wrongfully hands that player a penalty, despite the fact that the replay showed that it clearly was, then fans of the player in question will say something to the effect of; "He got hosed!"

Do you go to the other character threads and tell the people that express disappointment the same thing you're telling people about How to feel about Finn? Because there are way more people that express disappointment in Luke's arch than Finn's and yet it seems like only Finn's fans get bombarded with these admonishments.

 

How anything works in this world seperates those who ask the questions in the beginning then eventually become leaders to those who say it doesn't matter, and become followers. How a car works is more important than it works if you want to duplicate it. A crisis of conscience in a movie about the force? That makes sense. Of all the stormtroopers the FO has, Finn is the only one to break his conditioning and you want to say it's a crisis of conscience in a movie about the force?
It's obvious there are people who want a story where everyone except Kylo and Rey are so mentally handicapped that they need their guidance to do anything right. Why do you want to kill Star Wars? You have to realize your idea sounds stale, and isn't refreshing. Do you want this franchise to continue or not?