Official Finn Episode VIII thread

I really do think you're missing the point (especially when it comes to the existence of 3rd parties). There are numerous characters and factions that are not a part of the Resistance/Rebellion/Republic or the Empire/FO. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact, a long standing one. Therefore: to suggest that Finn had to join the Resistance because there are only 2 options in SW is flawed logic. Period. There are numerous options. Rian chose to poorly write a sequence of events with dubious logic, largely unbelievable story points and interactions, which ends with Finn choosing the Resistance. Anyone suggesting because it happened in the movie means it was the only way it could happen is arguing flawed circular logic.

• It would be like arguing the film had to have a sequence with slow moving Bombers over D'Qar because that's what was in the movie.
• Or that Leia had to be blown out of the command deck and into space because that's what was in the movie.
• Of that the FO had to have Hyperspace tracking because that's what was in the movie.

These are all choices. They happen because Rian chose them... with seemingly no regard to existing lore, believable character dynamics, and logical coherence with the previous installments. But they are choices. The ONLY thing TFA proscribed was that Han wouldn't be in TLJ and that Rey meets with Luke. That's it. RJ could have written Hutts into it, Manadalorians, or anything he wanted to... that's how we ended up with Yoda. Choices not proscriptions.

 

Luke was written to meet Yoda because he needed more training and Obi Wan was already dead.

TLJ had to tie in the main character within a two hour plus film.

We already know how Poe, Leia, Hux fit into that structure. Either the Resistance trying to destroy the FO or vice versa. Which is what we got at the start of the film. TFA also left off with Snoke requesting Kylo meet him. And Rey meeting Luke. Finn was last seen in the Resistance's care.


Now where in any of these scenarios that was prescribed to Finn from TFA, can you make a realistic new faction tie in within a movie time frame.

I'm not saying you can't do it. I want to here your suggestions, where in this proposed third faction still ties in to the rest of the storyline.

 

Remember how the Praetorian Guard were created just so Rey and Kylo could team up? The PG are a literal example of RJ adding in stuff because he wants to. Notice how it appears that they're not under the rule of the First Order, hence they attempt to kill Kylo, but made it into the movie anyway. I don't see anyone complaining about their addition. But somehow Finn being involved with something not under Resistance rule breaks all story logic.

Look at how the argument of "it had to happen that way" and "x character had to make x choice" falls apart simply by taking a look at actual additions to the exact same movie.

If we're going to talk about natural story progression, then let's also apply the same standards to the rest of the characters, including Kylo and Rey. By that standard Kylo should have been trained by Snoke and Rey should have been trained by Luke, complete with training montage. They should have fought again with Kylo winning handily. We should have seen mega-Jedi Luke and the KOR should have still been a part of the story. Snoke should have had a backstory explained and Poe shouldn't have been a hothead.

Subverting expectations with everyone else is a-okay but Finn has to make one choice only or somehow his story doesn't work.

 

And I want to hear YOU say that the story we got was chosen: from the individual arcs to the time it took place. Chosen not proscribed. And please understand, when I say you're missing the point I am not intending to say you are unintelligent in any way, but that I believe you have a blind spot. For example the statement "We already know how Poe, Leia, Hux fit into that structure" belies the fact that for at least 2 of those characters, the personalities and profiles were also already known in TFA - and they CHANGED to fit what Rian wanted to tell in TLJ. Rey handing Luke the LS looked like it was supposed to be a really powerful emotionally driven moment in TFA, in TLJ it became a joke - because that's what Rian wanted to do. There was very little proscribed for TLJ just like there isn't anything proscribed for EPIX - anything could happen.

There is literally NO impediment to adding a 3rd faction. None. All that is required is someone writing it. I'm honestly surprised that this is a point of contention since even TLJ did it. Canto Bight introduces a group who is not joined to the Resistance or the FO. Did they exist prior to Rian writing them?

A number of people have long ago suggested a Storm Trooper uprising. But honestly, just as easily as Rian introduces an entirely new group at Canto, you could introduce a new group that was skiddish on the Resistance ideology and goals, but hostile to the FO (for their own reasos). Heck you could have the Resistance ally with this new group, defeat the FO, only to realize the new group was bad also. Or heck you could have had Rose be an escaped child soldier already gathering other FO deserters who were planning to strike against the FO for their own reasons. The possibilities are literally limitless.

The defenses of TLJ that are based on it being proscribed or that ignore the canon development in TFA, simply cannot stand under scrutiny.

 

Rian literally had scenes of Finn leading an uprising but then decided to cut it - but no reasons were given. Instead we have Finn being ordered to join or risk being tased by a bunch of self-righteous space nuts. During his stint with the First Order he was ordered to shoot or risk being 'reconditioned'.


I would have been delighted to see Finn's character just walk away from it all, at least it would have saved him from the embarrassment that was his/Rose's arc. It would have added to his character; that he can make decisions for himself and has a sense of selfish behavior that would be something to overcome.

 

I'm a little worried that Finn's role is going to take the biggest hit again in Episode IX. This is due mostly to the fact that he was unnecessarily shoved into the already crowded Resistance with both Poe and Rose. That means he's going to likely have his time trimmed down again to make room for them even though he's supposed to be the second main character. With the announcement of the 'Caro' character, I wouldn't be surprised if they shoved her into there too. If JJ Abrams wasn't in control, I would feel even more worried. But that's only because he was the one that chose John Boyega and because he chose him based on his performance in "Attack the Block". So as it stands now I'm only a little worried.

 

i dont think so according to John Boyega He and Rey will team up again he is the
Deuteragonist of this series

http://collider.com/star-wars-9-rey-finn-reunited-john-boyega/

 

This is an overall excellent critique. Actually probably the best essay on a Star Wars film that I have ever read. As it relates to Finn it has a detailed discussion of his arc. Warning this is a long essay.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

 

Don't know why people keep spreading that around. It disregards the overall issues people have with how POC are treated in this franchise.

 

2 things it is an excellent essay. If you have issue with article or the subject you mention then bring it up. Both in this forum as well as with the author. He has been discussing the article and other items on twitter. His handle is @FilmCritHulk

 

I read a lot of the article and I didn't really care for it. To me it leans too close to the oft-repeated arguments which pretty much brand anyone who doesn't like the movie as either a sexist, racist or a loud vocal minority that make it their life's work to criticize anything Lucasfilm puts out. Since this is the Finn thread, I'm going to mostly focus on him. But I will say that the article lost me before that when it heavily implied that people who don't like Poe's arc simply don't like it because a woman is his superior.

Then it gets to Finn and proceeds to do what many a pro-TLJ article and poster have done, lecture us who didn't like his arc about what it was trying to say rather than whether it properly conveyed what it was trying to say. Or whether it needed to even say what it said at all. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would say that the latter is my main problem with Finn's arc. It didn't "need" to be what it was in TLJ because that was already covered in TFA. He didn't need to be pushed into being a member of the Resistance because that makes him no more a hero than he was in TFA. It was his morality that pushed him to help rescue Poe, decide to get BB8 back to the Resistance (mind you, before Rey even knew about his significance), come back to tell Han and Chewie about Starkiller, take up the lightsaber to fight the First Order, and help blow up Starkiller. None of that required him officially joining the Resistance. So Finn joining the Resistance did not "need" to happen.

As far as whether his arc properly conveyed what it was trying to, I have one critique on that. I don't think that TLJ did a good job of showing us Finn's transformation from would-be "deserter" to full-on would-be martyr. This goes back to a point I made in an earlier post about Finn not being allowed to have a middle-ground. It's either coward "deserter" of or over the top angry martyr. Once again, going back to TFA, that movie did a much better job of presenting him with balance at the end. In that movie, he decided to fight the First Order on his own accord and so was presented as still having his wits about him, in control of his own emotions but more resolved. Not so in TLJ, oh no, in TLJ he has to be reigned in by his "handlers" because obviously he can't be in control of his own emotions.

 

I tried to give the article an honest look, but similar to most takes that praise Finn's development the analysis relies heavily on sophistry. His attempt at an end-around where he substitutes his head canon for the development that doesn't show up on the screen and the holes that go unexplained in the film is so annoying and obvious.

"But then Poe ropes both Finn and Rose into his spy mission plan to shut down the tracker. Finn doesn’t want to disappoint either of them and goes along (even while secretly just being concerned about Rey). Thus begins their “meaningless” trip to Canto Bright. " - Finn doesn't want to disappoint either of them? What? LOL, ok.

"When they get there, at first Finn sees the glitz and glamor and wants to partake in a world that seems so alluring, but then he sees the way the rich treat those below him. The way they profit off murder. The way they treat children and slaves and animals. Suddenly, he sees the larger world and the way they are affected by the oppressive First Order" - LOL What? Did you see the leap? This is one of our specific criticisms of the movie, Finn's ideological disagreement with Canto shouldn't have ANY bearing on his joining the Resistance because:

1. He is already AWARE of the cruelty in the galaxy. He has been a victim of it most of his life. TLJ loyalist always conduct their analysis as though TFA didn't happen. Without offering even a voice track explanation in the movie why his experience on Canto was different than his own personal experience with the F.O. the logical coherency issue is so intense it glows.
2. Canto ISN'T the First Order. So how do you get to the mistreatment of people and animals on Canto being the doing of the FIRST ORDER? It's like they're not even trying with this analysis.
3. Why Leia started the Resistance isn't a secret: it was to combat the F.O. It wasn't about stopping animal or slave mistreatment (a practice which has gone on the span of all the Episodic movies). But suddenly now Finn is not only moved by the suffering of others (and not his own suffering) and somehow believes that the Resistance will fight for a purpose that it HASN'T been fighting for before.

"But Finn’s arc isn’t merely about “beating Phasma,” but the moment just prior when she calls him scum, and he retorts with a most telling line of, “Rebel scum!” It’s a triumphant, rousing moment that shows he’s now bought into the mission of the resistance hook, line and sinker." - Triumphant? LOL. What is this dude smoking? I mean, it was MEANT to be triumphant but it falls flat because Rian wants the reward of emotional connection to the moment without doing work to achieve it. No one cheered when he said it, when you asked people what was one of their favorite moments scenes, it's rarely (if ever cited) because it underwhelming. It fell flat because:

1. The development to reach this point is haphazard and logically incoherent. The journey and the destination seem artificially pasted together. To go on this journey that Rian has contrived and end up at the destination he wants, requires you to travel through a worm hole.
2. There is nothing at stake, whether he does or doesn't. There's something at stake if Finn doesn't join the Resistance attack on SKB in TFA. Here nothing is impacted. If he officially joins, they leave to join the rest of the Resistance on Crait. If he doesn't officially join, they still leave to join the rest of the Resistance on Crait.

"It’s a character arc seemingly complete, but there’s still one important lesson left to learn. Now, fully believing in the cause, he has so much anger to unleash. He’s so angry at all the injustice and abuse that he wants to be a brave hero the way he sees Poe, the man who will fly into a dreadnought." - LOL What the entire hell? LOL. Do you see it? This dude is literally writing supplementary head canon into the film. He wouldn't have to do that if it were IN the film. When did Finn ever act like he wanted to be seen as a brave hero like Poe? Just completely making $h!t up. Finn is supposed to be full of hatred for the FO... where did we see that developed at ALL in this movie? But now suddenly in the 11th hour of the film, because Rian needs to impart another disparate message, Finn has to be full of hatred for the F.O. so that Rose can rescue him from it and explain the way they'll win.

Sheesh

 

The reality is Finn is just a big side character who is Rey's side kick. Rian did not know what to do with him because Rian understood Finn is not the main focus, rather Poe got more of a development in the Last Jedi than Finn.

They might even show Rey with her students who she trains in the Force and Finn will not be one of them. I bet you in 9 they show you on screen Finn rejects wanting to learn the way of a Jedi, or it be something that is over his head that he can not even understand as they showed about him TFA on the screen with Han Solo when Finn said we use the Force and Han said that is not how the force works ( some use this as to show FInn is clueless about the force, and a few said that's how the force works). In the Last Jedi's novel when Rose tells Finn , that Rey will not be the person he knew before once she become a Jedi because they cant have relationship and she be busy with other Jedi things. So for sure Finn in 9 will get no real development, he might be cut for the new characters can get screen time. 8 was the movie to show that he was force sensitive but they did not do that with a clear open to the audience to show he is. So 9 is way to late in the Trilogy to show this now. Unless JJ ends 9 with showing a new version of Star Wars and end the trilogry with a new Saga related to the Force and the Jedi. Then maybe he can make Finn Force Sensitive or Jedi or Jedi like.

Don't forget John Boeyga said about FInn for the Last Jedi Finn is now a big deal, and once we seen the movie we seen he was not.

 

This is one point the pro-TLJ crowd can't argue against at all. No one can answer the 'why' in regards to the significance of Finn's arc from an in-universe perspective.

Reading Finn's parts in the Poe comics, it looks like you're not too far off the mark. In issue 27 they made it a point, when Leia was explaining the force to he, Rey and Poe, for him to remark that he would "never understand this stuff". In the latest issue, while Rey and C-3P0 are reading the Jedi texts, he's in another part of the ship basically sulking over Rose. So yeah, it looks like they're going to rub it in.

 

To answer your points highlighted in yellow.

1. Not disappoint Rose for sure, because she already knows the truth. However, he showed he didn't want to disappoint Poe and was relieved Rose didn't tell him the truth of how they met.

2. Wrong. Finn knows how the FO treated him and other soldiers. And how they treated that village on Jakku (and by the new EU, how they treated that mining place in BTA). But Finn has no idea the reach and how the FO effects the greater galaxy. He doesn't know about that other side of downtrodden cruelty of life in general. Why would he? Until Jakku, he only knows the propanda the FO have been feeding him. (Even if he doesn't believe in it). There may be political allegories I could spout now, like if you take a toddler and for 20 years, and only show him the news channel of one side of the political spectrum. And see how they turn out ignorant of certain things. But I won't get in to that.

3.This one's more of an opinion. It either does or doesn't work for you the viewer.

4. Since the change happens when they get to Crait, after Rose asks "is this all that's left." You can then see the aggressiveness start when he gives his speech. And really amps up when he disagrees with Poe in the skimmers. But there are still points of levity, when he first tries out the speeder and when he sees the Falcon. I took it because he realized how many lives, DJ's betrayal cost them.
This is an error.......But I think the point the guy is trying to make, is that Finn is now behaving as Poe did, at the start of TLJ. So while Finn is not purposely trying to pull a Poe, he is certainly unintentionally emulating him by that point. As a call back, Finn is now in the Poe position, while Poe is in the Leia position. And since the message of the film is that Poe was wrong earlier , we don't have time to go through another "space chase" and mutiny for Finn to learn a moral. Hence Rose, gives it to him rather bluntly. (Poe never had that option).

 

Whatever Rose said to Finn should be irrelevant. He already knew how deadly the FO was, because he said it in TFA. He told Maz there was no fighting the FO. They'll slaughter us. Finn was right to want to escape to the outer rim, and Rose's complaints confirmed it. Also the Resistance is barely an army. Based on what Finn said in TFA joining the Resistance would be the last thing he would do. Rian ignored Finn wanted to escape because he believed fighting the FO is suicide. Rose's words shouldn't have changed his mind. It should have affirmed what he already knew.

 

Once again, TFA is canon also. Rian may not have written his story as though it was, but it was.

1. The thing that Finn was most ashamed of was that he was a Storm Trooper. Poe already knew that. Finn readily let Maz, Han, and Rey know he was cutting and running from the fight against the First Order. Later he let's Han know he's only back in the fight to save Rey. If you believe he is genuinely afraid of disappointing Poe in TLJ, it is yet ONE more inconsistency in character development promulgated by Rian Johnson' haphazard handling of Finn's character and disregard for his previous development.

2. You're saying "Wrong" and then going on to make points that have nothing to do with my original statement and that do nothing to refute what I said. Finn is already aware of the cruelty in the galaxy, he has been a victim of it. Full stop. And what he's seen has been enough for him to risk his life to leave it. Again, TFA is canon. You say, "Finn has no idea the reach and how the FO effects the greater galaxy." LOL, ok, and he knows NO MORE about it having been on Canto Bight because once again: Canto isn't the F.O. That's one of the critiques of the Canto Bight C-plot; it was incoherently done.

3. Whose opinion, his, mine, or yours? Because it's not really an opinion that it's a forgettable line. I am reasonably confident I can produce far more links of list of memorable moments or quotes that don't include Finn's "Rebel Scum" than you can provide to the counter.

4. Again, none of this refutes what I said, 11th hour change up because Rian had one last message to shoehorn in. Ultimately that's part of why Finn's story doesn't work, because it's a junk drawer for all the secondary ideas and themes that Rian wanted to convey that he couldn't tie into the main plot. It's funny to hear people argue "Rose had to save Finn, his attack wasn't going to work", and then later he, "he was acting like Poe at the beginning of the movie disobeying chain of command"...

...but Poe's attack worked when he did it right? LOL. Finn wasn't acting like Poe, Poe took action because he was used to having the ability to impact the outcome and produce victory from the seat of his cockpit. He is confident in himself because he has been successful before. Finn has NONE of this to draw on during his meaningless run at the canon. The best that can be stitched together is that he becomes angry so that we can see how Poe has changed since the beginning of the movie. It's not organic change, it's plot driven change.

 

Exactly

This. His arch is thrown together and has large pieces missing. You can almost argue that he doesn't have an arch at all. Joining the Resistance? Already heavily foreshadowed in TFA and completed before leaving the ship at the beginning of TLJ. Learning to control his impulsive hatred? Not setup at all and seemingly only added to show Poe's growth and throw one more negative character trait onto Finn. Anything you might be able to argue is a character arch is resolved almost immediately or not even presented as a problem in the first place.

 

The ignoring of Finn's impact in Star Wars happened right after TFA came out and the reviews came in. Collider videos has been one of the leaders, and when listening to their shows they always downplayed Finn, and raised the level of Rey and Kylo. A lot of people and companies were in on downplaying Finn. Collider would talked about Finn the way Rian Johnson wrote him. Finn is a sick fantasy from the minds of some sick people.

 

Is Finn getting ready for round two against Kylo or is he going against someone else ?