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Official Finn Episode VIII thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by romall smith, Feb 10, 2016.

?

Finn Force Sensitive in Ep VIII?

  1. He is not / will not be Force Sensitive

    243 vote(s)
    65.1%
  2. He is / will be Force Sensitive

    117 vote(s)
    31.4%
  3. Does not matter he dies in Ep VIII

    13 vote(s)
    3.5%
  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I'm with both of you guys on this. It's not that I don't want to see Finn redemption, I just don't see a pathway forward. I won't belabor you all (or anyone new to the forum) with my thoughts on the pedestrian development he was given in TLJ, but the most Rian apparently imagined for Finn was joining the Resistance. What time is there to develop the overall storyline and advance Finn from Resistance guy to something more? I just don't think there is enough bandwidth. Rian effectively closes the door on any larger possibilities by wasting an entire movie without seriously advancing the character in a meaningful way (and again, if you feel differently, feel free to NOT reply to me on this because I'm not debating it LOL).

    I am confident those that never wanted anything extraordinary with Finn will be happy with Finn being the male version of Lt. Connix, logistically important and canonically forgettable. Any FS reveal for Finn would (IMO) just be a last second inclusion (if at all) with no possible development within the trilogy. They'll trial balloon a stand-alone movie with Finn, which will predictably portend box office failure, and on the heels of SOLO bombing, provides all the academic cover they need to never make the movie.
     
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  2. starwarsforever

    starwarsforever Rebelscum

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    Yea did not RJ did flash back showing Luke going to kill his nephew about two times showing this flashback? did not JJ uses in the force awakens flash back with Rey's force vision.
     
  3. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    To my mind the difference is that Ortega pretty much completely reused a scene from TFA. To be fair he doesn't have another choice, than recycle material from the prior movies. Anyway, both Luke's/Ren's flashback scenes and Rey's force vision were not reycled material. Besides Rian Johnson way of showing the series of flashbacks from three different points of view was a neat homage to Akira Kurosawa. Overall I'd say just hearing the sounds instead would have been a more elegant fix.
     
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  4. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    These aren't flashbacks, at least if you look at the definition of flashbacks. The scenes of TLJ are POVs. And as @RockyRoadHux mentioned before Rian wanted to honor Akira Kurosawa and IMO he was quite successful.
     
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  5. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I agree... and if I think about IX, that’s probably the only/main thing I just cannot see how JJ can
    fix/improve.

    I mean, I don’t even know if he wants to fix/improve some story lines.
    But the fact is I still see in other cases something that can be done, if he wants to.
    With Finn’s arc... it’s far more diffucult.

    Which is an huge shame. I loved him in TFA....
     
  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I feel like he has some obligation to try (it was his mystery boxes that started some of this, he came up with the questions but not the answers. If he handed them off to Rian maybe there would have been better continuity, especially for Finn and Rey's arcs).
     
  7. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    ...hum. I don’t know. To me TFA worked as an introduction.
    Not only. Just few posts above we were talking about Rucka’s work with Before the Awekening, how he nailed
    the characters etc. and in the last years we’ve got other novels and comics that expanded the ST canon
    starting from the characters and the ideas set up for TFA.

    Personally I’m now convinced that there was not plan at all, but that all those people, the
    other authors, did what they wanted to do but in a way that felt... organic.
    So much so we believed there was a plan.

    I mean if I read BTA, or Poe’s comic..... the characters look the same. We go deep, but they are recognizable.
    If I read Blood line or Empire’s end, it’s the same. Even tho they are set before TFA. Etc...

    What I’m trying to say is... I don’t think these people were given of an outline.
    At all.
    But still they’ve managed to use the “mystery boxes”, to create something interesting
    and compelling.

    So I don’t think the blame goes to JJ.

    He offered something. Something to work on at least.
    We don’t know if he had a long term vision. Maybe, maybe not.
    But the thing is, even if he did LF choose to give freedom to everyone.
    Not only to RJ.
    And in my eyes... TLJ is the only case where that freedom didn’t work in a way that I felt
    organic or compelling with the rest of the story.

    In Finn’s case, I believe TLJ was a bad reboot of his arc in TFA.
    Thus a waste of time.
    But it’s not that the story of a former stormtrooper was destined to get nowhere...

    That said, I’m afraid it is a little too late with him because... you may even dislike Poe’s arc in VIII
    but still there was enough set up in both movies for seeing him in IX as the one taking the torch
    on the Rebellion side. One may even pretend TLJ never existed and TFA is enough because he was presented
    as someone with experience and skills. That Leia trusts etc...

    You may like or dislike how Rey was portrayed in VIII an VII too.
    Still there’s enough set up to see her as one of the two protagonists of the force plot.

    And from these points of view I may even see a further off screen growth, if there’s going to be
    a strong time jump.

    With Finn... what can you do at this point to give him a full arc?
    Because we left him, in VIII, as the ex stormtrooper that just joined the resistance/rebellion.
    Just like in VII.... so I don’t know.

    I’m 100% convinced JJ will try.
    But I don’t see how and where he may take Finn...
     
    #8567 lealt, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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  8. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel Official

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    I agree with the majority of this. However I don't think the expanded material has done anything to advance Finn in particular. He's the only character that has no expanded material, except a kids comic, besides his part in BTA. I do fear that you're right though that Poe may have pushed Finn out of the main Resistance and male lead character role. Think about, Poe not Finn has a book like Rey's Journal and also a whole comic book series. Between that and he and Kylo's boost in importance in TLJ and Finn's clear demotion, I don't see how you can really make an argue to the contrary even with Finn still having more screen-time. It's unfortunate but it is what it is.

    Again I also am going to have to agree about a lack of a plan for this trilogy. If there was a plan, there's no way Finn 's story would still be an enigma like it is. I mean "Resistance/Rebellion member" is the most basic descriptor of every protagonist left after TLJ. It says absolutely nothing about Finn's overall purpose.

    Let's take a look at all the descriptor's for each character:
    Rey - Force prodigy, Jedi hopeful, Probable leader of new Jedi Order, mechanic, pilot, Resistance member
    Kylo - Force prodigy, Supreme leader of the First Order, pilot, Leader of the KOR
    Hux - General and military leader of the First Order, chief operator of First Order stormtrooper program, Second in command of First Order, Master strategist
    Leia - Force prodigy, Leader and creator of the Resistance, princess,
    Poe - Ace pilot, Second in Command of Resistance, Resistance leader hopeful, Leia's protege
    Rose - Resistance mechanic, Engineer, Inventor of the Resistance's ship cloaking device
    Finn - Resistance member

    We all see the problem here, right? If this is what's supposed to be the result of years of planning for Finn, I'm not seeing it.
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    To be clear, I don't put this all or even mostly on JJ. I do not hold him blameless. I mean JJ's affinity for launching mystery boxes to which even he doesn't know the answer at the time of launch precedes his foray into SW. If he provided Mystery Box answers to Rian and he chose not to use them, then that'd be on Rian. But not having that coordination on what would and wouldn't be answered (or for that matter asked) created part of what I see as stark discontinuities between TFA and TLJ. Like if the LS moment between Rey and Luke really was going to be a comic moment, there is NO way that TFA should have ended with as much tension and emotion as it did.

    I don't know if that's all on Rian. A lot of it yes. All of it, I don't know if I can make that argument convincingly. In the end it's moot because I don't believe JJ can save the ST, but I want him to put forth the effort to try anyway. I just don't see him as completely blameless in all of this.
     
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  10. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    @Trooper212
    Exactly. I think there’s was not plan at all, but freedom for each and everyone.
    The only difference I see between TLJ and all the rest is that somehow in novels
    and comics, characters and plot lines felt organic.

    But freedom also means that they were free to choose to expande one character or the other.
    One plot line or the other.

    And you’re right. Not that much was done with Finn.

    But we’ve got a novel about Capitan Phasma.
    The most pointless character of the last two movies....
     
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  11. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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    She's not pointless. She's sold lots of merchandise!
     
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  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I really did think Phasma was going to represent some turning point in the gravitas of Storm Troopers as we know it. Thought she was going to be the leader of actual Special Forces and we'd see skill sets and behavior not seen before. I thought with the reboot we would see the FO learning from the mistakes of the empire and changing. No more ST being taken out by Ewoks, these would be a different breed of Storm Troopers overall, and that there would be special units which we could visibly identify by their new armor (a la Phasma).

    You can only imagine how disappointed I am to see what she actually was and what the Storm Troopers continued to be (irrelevant faceless cannon fodder and plot filler). Instead of wasting time taking risks in telling a story that no one wanted, Rian would have done well to take risks to change the nature of the enemy, to make them more serious, to make them more credible, to make them more skilled and adept, and to make us see parts ourselves within them.

    But no, much edgier to 180 Luke, to park Finn in a car lot around the corner from the real action, to bring Phasma out at the last second for a underwhelming action sequence, to try to carve credible action out of Holdo based on a pre-conceived and inflexible plot, to put Finn and Poe in the same lane, and to have Rey play nurse maid instead of making her journey about HER journey. Imagine Luke going to Dagobah and having to assuage the damaged psyche of a grumpy defeated Yoda instead of actually being trained and learning something about what made Luke, Luke. SMH.
     
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  13. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    I was having a discussion with someone about the quality of shows between Great Britain and the United States. One of the things we discussed was America seems to be more concerned with selling a product rather than telling a good story. I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. Especially when they make movies without having the story solidified first. Then you look at the Star Wars conversations, and they all sound like products being sold instead of a story. Example (People want an Obi Wan movie, but only if Ewan Mcgregor is in it.) In this case the actor is more important than the story.

    In this trilogy the discussions have been about individual characters and how some are more important than others. Doesn't sound like a story. The redemption of Kylo is not a story. It's more like a product. He has to live no matter what. Which means the other characters don't matter. The idea is so ridiculous if given any real thought, but here we are. Rey always comes up in conversations, but what story is she telling? Based on what we have been given so far it's not compelling. She has no connection to the Resistance, so why are we interested in what she does with them? Finn has no connection to anything, so why should I care if he helps the Resistance or not? None of the characters have a reason or purpose to do anything.
     
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  14. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    TFA set up with foreshadowing of Finn being a "big deal" in the Resistance. Basically Finn becoming the very thing that he's lying about being.

    A few of us could see the writing on the wall when TFA came out. That this was Finn's storyline. Go to the Finn thread in TFA section and see for yourself.


    Many though kept applying the "FINN'S GOTTA BE FORCE SENSITIVE!!" Even though he wasn't.

    You could tell those guys were going to be very disappointed.
     
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  15. firarottico

    firarottico Clone

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    There may be some in The Resistance who are hesitant to totally confide in an ex-Stormtrooper at first, and the FO needing vengeance could make things more troublesome now and again.
    I simply need him to keep on growing further, both all alone and in connection to the others. What's more, to keep on being affable as a rule.
     
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  16. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    People certainly speculated that Finn might be FS, just like they speculated that Rey might be Luke's daughter, and that Kylo might be redeemed. I'm guessing you were equally concerned about those folks being disappointed as well.

    I think you can make the case that, being a Big Deal and FS aren't mutually exclusive prospects (see Luke Skywalker)

    Finally Rian hardly followed up on any of the foreshadowing in TFA, accordingly I'm not sure how you could be certain what Finn's turn would be in TLJ given what you saw in TFA.
     
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  17. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Put it this way. Over the course of TFA and at its end, Rey gained the blue lightsaber, discovered she had force powers, gained the Falcon and with Chewie as her sidekick, defeated a darksider, sent by Leia with upgraded new clothes to get Luke. (And obviously learn from him).

    Finn helped the Resistance plan the Starkiller assault, got to know Poe (Rey did not), gained Poe's Resistance jacket and ended the film comatose but in the Resistance's care.

    It was pretty obvious which one's future involved becoming a Jedi and which one's involved becoming a Resistance member.


    Edit: after TFA, I was 50/50 on Rey's parentage, but after the Bloodline novel came out in April 2016, it was obvious to me Rey was neither Luke's nor Leia's offspring. So yeah, I was equally concerned about them too, and going by their reactions to Rey's parentage in TLJ, I was right to be
     
    #8577 LarsSkywalker, Oct 11, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I'd argue it was obvious who was going to become a Jedi even before the movie started (Rey). I don't think we had ANY idea what Finn was going to do based on TFA, it was shrouded in mystery (which is part of the reason why I think Rian's "reveal" was supremely underwhelming - though in his partial defense, I don't think he felt there was a reveals to be made since the most he imagined could happen for Finn coming out of TFA was that he repeat his character arc and at the end formally join the Resistance).
     
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  19. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel Official

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    Finn joining the Resistance wasn't a surprise at all to me. Since like I said in my previous post, that's the base descriptor of every protagonist in the ST. Everyone knew this that's why it's so disappointing that so far Finn isn't known as anything beyond that. Whether people want to argue against FS is beyond the point because that's really not the part that upsets people it's the fact that so far he's the least unique among all the protagonists and he's supposed to be at least the second most important of them in the ST.
     
  20. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    In a story the journey is more important than the destination. We spend most of our time with characters on their journeys. The destination is just the happy ever after part, but it isn't the story. Everyone knew he would be with the Resistance, but how he gets there should matter. I was interested in Finn. That's how TFA was set up. My interests in the Resistance is very little, because we didn't spend time with them, and when we did I didn't like what I saw. There is no reason for me to be excited for Finn being with the Resistance. Except for them believing he should help them I don't believe that's what he wants. Finn was more interesting on his own. The Resistance does the same thing to Finn that Rey did. What they want is more important than what he wants. I don't care what the Resistance wants, and I'm sure most people feel the same way.
     
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