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SPECULATION Official Knights of Ren in Episode VIII Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by JediMasterRobert, Mar 11, 2016.

?

Are the KOR Acolytes of the Beyond?

  1. Yes!

    5 vote(s)
    10.2%
  2. No! They have nothing to do with them.

    24 vote(s)
    49.0%
  3. Yes! At least they were...

    20 vote(s)
    40.8%
  1. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Among the most mysterious characters in Episode VII: The Force Awakens were the Knights of Ren:

    Kylo Ren is said, by Supreme Leader Snoke, to be the Master of the Knights of Ren.

    We only get a glimpse of this group in Rey's "Forceback" Force Vision (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_vision).

    There is only one verbal reference to the group in both the film and the novelization.

    Described as a "Dark Side organization," the Knights of Ren are said to operate under the command of Supreme Leader Snoke (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Supreme_Leader).

    In the one scene, they appear to wear various styles of armor andhave various armaments as they stand among what appears to be a scene of major carnage.

    Elsewhere in the story we learn, through Han Solo, about Luke's Jedi Academy and the Jedi massacre:
    We also learn, in the canon novel Aftermath by Chuck Wendig...
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aftermath

    ...there are the Acolytes of the Beyond
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acolytes_of_the_Beyond
    ...who were described as a group of "Dark Side fanatics" intent on recovering Sith relics/artifacts
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_relic
    ...most notably Darth Vader's helmet and Vader's lightsaber.

    (We know Kylo Ren now has the helmet, and Rey now has Anakin's original lightsaber (which also had been passed down to Luke by Obi-Wan Kenobi: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Skywalker's_lightsaber), and both items seem to induce mystical Force visions.)

    We are left with many questions concerning the Knights of Ren, including:
    • Who are these people?
    • Are they Force-sensitive?
    • What is their possible role within the First Order?
    • What is their relationship with Snoke?
    • What was their impact in events leading up to Episode VII?
    • How did Kylo Ren become their master?
    • Will they still be around in Episode VIII?
    • If so, what purpose(s) will they serve?

    Some more questions for your consideration...
    • who or what do you think they are?
    • Are they living beings or Dark Side (non-Sith) spirits? Former Jedi?
    • Former padawans of Yoda's Bear Clan? (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bear_Clan)
    • Former students of Luke?
    • Dark Side sensitive Special Forces First Order members?
    • Could they be the Acolytes of the Beyond?
    • Do they have historic ties (or inspiration from) the
    • Were they specifically created by Snoke to falsely prop up Kylo Ren?
    • Do you believe we'll get to know them, or will they continue to be shrouded in mystery?
    • Why do you think Rey, of all people, would see them in her Force vision?
    • Was the Force itself (or Anakin through the lightsaber) trying to tell her or warn her of something or someone?
    • How do you believe they may (or may not) factor in the events of Episode VIII?
    (kylo ren)(vader)

    JediMasterRobert
     
    #1 JediMasterRobert, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  2. remiel6

    remiel6 Rebel Official

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    on the one hand I think we will learn more about them, but on the other hand look at at the Sith. Nearly all that we know about the sith comes outside of 6 films. In the 6 movies we know Vader is a Sith, Palpatine is a Sith, there are only 2 sith, they are evil, and the jedi thought they were long dead. Clone wars reveals far more about the sith. So with that in mind, JJ stated one of the things he loves about Star Wars was they had all this rich stuff in the movie and never felt a need to over explain it. which is a problem a lot of films have. So I do think that we will see more of them, but I think a lot about them may be left unanswered in the movies.
     
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  3. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I believe the KoR were once the Acolytes of the Beyond. A Sith obsessed death cult that viewed the Chosen One, Darth Vader, as a messiah.
    In Aftermath, a merchant who sells them a red lightsaber asks them if they will use it on him and they reply "we're not violent, yet" or something like that.
    I believe that Snoke approaches the Acolytes and provides them with a means to achieve their true goal - the resurrection of the Chosen One.
    He gives them power and knowledge. And they become the Knights of Ren. I believe "Ren" to be an in-universe term to mean "The Dark Side", "The Force" or "The Chosen One'. I also think it possible that the KoR weren't always evil but simply had a fundamental religious view about Vader. They follow the Chosen One blindly. Snoke takes advantage of that.

    Snoke meanwhile is turning Ben Solo to the Dark Side and gets the KoR to believe that Ben could be the resurrected Chosen One or is simply important as he is the direct descendent of Darth Vader. Ben Solo might even begin to think this way. He does after all view his destiny as being the same as Darth Vader's. Once Ben Solo does turn to darkness, he becomes Master of the Knights of Ren and has them work for Snoke in exchange for the teachings of this mysterious dark side figure. However, Kylo Ren perhaps has his own goals - he believes he is to be the one to rule the galaxy and is using Snoke to achieve this.
     
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  4. Moisture Farmer

    Moisture Farmer Rebelscum

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    How well known are the TOR? Household name or only folks in the know?
     
  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 Bendemptionist
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    i don't think it's Anakin's (blue) lightsaber, it's Vader's (red) lightsaber in the novel.
    at least that's my understanding.
    and even then, it's questionable as the dealer says he actually has no idea if it's authentic.

    just an impression, but i i don't think these acolytes have anything to do with the KOR.

    i still have the impression that they aren't a "false" prop, but they are a kind of prop for Ren to give him something constructive to do.
    they are people to train with, to exercise leadership, to take on missions for the purpose of learning.
    i don't know that Snoke cares specifically about Sith history (that seems to be Ren's thing).
    the KOR if a good way for him to connect to his grandfather and therefore stay on track with whatever it is Snoke is leading him toward.

    i kinda hope they stay mostly shrouded in mystery. i don't really want to get to know them as people.
    bringing them into viii with Ren in a position of actual power over them would give him back his legitimacy, make him formidable again.
    he's got a lot of face to save (figuratively and literally), and the KOR could be a way of showing that he is competent at something and has earned the respect of someone.

    that said, i wouldn't mind finding out that the group started out with just a few members and that Ren filled out the ranks by dragging Luke's students into the Dark.

    edit: oh look at that ~ it automatically filled in the lightsaber emoticons ~ hahaha
     
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  6. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Yes, I clarified that now in my original post above.

    Rey has Anakin's original lightsaber which was handed down to Luke through Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Luke, of course, lost that lightsaber when his hand got cut off by Vader, and Luke later created a new one.

    Yes, that would be helpful.

    Without the Sith as an established reference point, these unknown/arbitrary members of a "Dark Side organization" never before known, have nothing more than a name and a brief image.

    This seems to make Kylo's title of "Master of the Knights of Ren" kind of meaningless until we know just a little bit more about this "organization."

    I mean not to know them as people -- their biographies -- but some aspect of them, collectively, or perhaps, if there's good reason and opportunity to see one or more of them unmasked, to know who or what these beings are.

    We didn't need to know the Jawas or Tusken Raiders individually to have some very limited but basic appreciation of their nature and impact on the story. The same is true of the bounty hunters and Stormtroopers from the Original Trilogy.

    I'm open-minded and not eager to know everything. I have many different approaches to what the Knights of Ren may or may not be.

    Here is one remotely possible thought: imagine if they were nothing more than figments of Kylo's imagination, something Snoke concocted as a means to "empower" Kylo, or deceive him or keep him busy.

    In another thread, I momentarily compared the Knights of Ren with the mysterious Ring Wraiths from The Lord of the Rings (also known as the Nazgul):
    http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Nazgûl
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazgûl

    While most of the Sith did not have believed in life after death, but possibly other Dark Side practitioners might have a different view of the Force which enables them to interact with the Netherworld of the Force (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Netherworld_of_the_Force).

    In terms of past Dark Side Force sensitives, possibly even ex-Sith, I consider it possible that Darth Plagueis might have believed there could be continuation in some form, and perhaps this is a reason he might have had to break with the Sith (and perhaps even willingly die) to explore and embrace that opportunity.

    Since they are notable representatives of the Dark Side in this Sequel Trilogy, The Knights of Ren seem to offer us a possibility to learn more about that aspect of the Force and their own views which likely diverge, at least in part, from past teachings of the Sith.

    The Knights of Ren could prove to be considerably more dangerous than the Sith, especially if they somehow allow for greater numbers in their ranks without the usual in-fighting which destroyed the Sith internally and forced Darth Bane (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Bane) to establish the famous "Rule of Two" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two)

    Just as the First Order is, from a certain point of view, Empire v2.0, I tend, for the moment, until I learn more about them, to consider the Knights of Ren a sort of Sith v2.0 -- but with the understanding they may have nothing in common with the Sith other than their affinity for the Dark Side of the Force.

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  7. timonder

    timonder Clone Commander

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    Very interesting! That reference alone makes me believe that the KoR we see in the Forceback are the "finally" violent version of the Acolytes of the Beyond. This violent "debut" could happen 6 years before TFA (in the upcoming Bloodline novel). By then, they have accepted Vader's grandson as their master, rather than someone "beyond".

    Wouldn't be surprised if they were Snoke followers before, until Kylo unwittingly took over Snoke's fan group and gave it a worldly focus. Snoke doesn't sound to impressed with the KoR. Maybe he feels snubbed.
     
  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 Bendemptionist
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    this would be a terrible choice ~ ha!
    so convoluted. and seriously: Ren is disempowered enough at this point. giving him imaginary playmates would be harsh.
    besides which, he already has Vader ~ hahaha

    this seems like it might be the intention ~ all of the parallels are amped up in terms of Force use.
    it does beg the question: what are they doing at the moment?
    if Ren's mission is to kill Luke and he and Hux are chasing after the map, why aren't the other knights assisting in this operation?
    why is Ren commanding stormtroopers instead of his own people?

    my initial impression was that they might actually have been wiped out prior to the events of TFA and Ren himself is the last (a Master with no disciples). but that's a crummy choice too ~ hahaha.
     
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  9. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    LOL, I agree on both points.

    Yes. They appear and disappear in the blink of an eye, and we are not allowed to see them clearly due to the rain and the murkiness of the Force vision.

    Due to the nature of the "Forceback" vision Rey experienced, we cannot be sure if that was a past or future sight she saw. Pablo even hinted that there can be special "times" within the Force itself outside of regular time:



    Perhaps the KOR are gone, and Kylo is the master/king of Rens because he took them out. Which does lead me cause me to reconsider the question of Snoke and his relationship, if any, with them. If they were ridden, and easily so, did he set them up or help Kylo out to easily take them out and therefore claim the top spot handily and so feel as if he (Kylo) was truly "a master of something" when in fact it could have been an empty title.

    I would not put that past sneaky Snoke, trying to prop up Ben so as to make him more confident and therefore useful -- but to Snoke's end, not Kylo's, as Snoke might have intended that to go.

    And the reason I say these last few things comes right from Han Solo's warning to his son: that Snoke was using Ben for his power. That was a powerful statement full of truth.

    If the KOR are gone, maybe Snoke somehow needed to use them for their powers as well.

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  10. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    I doubt that they'd introduce a concept as potentially cool/interesting as this, only to then pull the whole "they were done away with offscreen."
     
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  11. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    JJ says that because he has a talent for recognizing what old parts of an intellectual property were cool and people want to see again, but he never can (or never tries to, I can't decide) connect them into any cohesive plot. it's all random stuff dropped at unpredictable intervals in a film with little to no logic. Why is McCoy experimenting on a Tribble in STID? Because the plot needs it and people love tribbles. Why is carol Marcus a character in STID? Because WoK is the best ST movie and STID is a loose remake of it. He made STID and could have made an original Trek film. Sound familiar?

    JJ was too busy remaking ANH to flesh out interesting stuff like KoR in TFA. He'll put their only appearance in the trailer though....like the flashback of Luke....and use a luke voiceover...even though Luke has no lines.....

    I think we will see the KoR in E8 and learn a good deal about them (how many there are roughly, if any others were Luke's students before turning, if any are still alive....I think several things LIKE those traits I just mentioned will be in Ep8 and if the KoR are relevant to the story again in IX we'll learn a little more).

    Since Ep8 & Ep9 won't spend so much time as remakes of previous films (since JJ won't be directing) I think we'll have a good deal time more to deal with new trilogy matters, and I think the KoR will be a big part of the next two films because they are key to Kylo, Snoke, and Luke's recent past and immediate future.

    I think there's a happy medium between throwing lots of stuff in a movie since your not feeling the need to explain any of it and a perpetual info-dump film like Jupiter Ascending.

    Ridley Scott didn't feel the need to show his work in scifi in Alien, but you get everything you need to feel in that world. (Prometheus has a lot of creative exposition and plot development, though it has it's JJ-esqe moments too)

    Guardians of the Galaxy in is an origin film that doesn't answer every background question but gives a lot of info in different ways.

    Blade Runner has tons of exposition but is well paced. It's not a fast-paced movie but it pulls you through.

    heck Batman Begins is the ultimate exposition film, but it's never boring.

    You can make a fun movie that has a good pace to it and not confuse the heck out of people who are paying attention and above the age of 12.

    I think the veil of obfuscation on KoR will be lifted somewat in Ep 8
     
    #11 Lobot, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  12. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Can I just ask why people seem to doubt Kylo killed the Jedi himself?
     
  13. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    Because of how emotionally and mentally unstable he is NOW, let alone years before. It's a lot easier to buy him and these guys teaming up to kill the other students, than him somehow being able to pull that off on his own. Heck even Anakin let the clone troopers do most of the work for him (he just killed the kids).
     
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  14. Greg Kirby

    Greg Kirby Rebel Official

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    I want to see KOR in action, perhaps we'll get a spin-off movie about them.
     
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  15. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    Wait, people ask that question? I though TFA was explicit on that point.
     
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  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I was really referring to the notion that Kylo didn't kill them but that they joined him.

    The other thing that strikes me is that Solo explicitly says one boy destroyed it all and he is referred to as Jedi killer. But yeah, he could've done it with them.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 11, 2016 ---
    There's a theory that he didn't kill them but that they joined him. Also that theory that he was the one that took Rey to Jakku. Timeline aside, I don't really get the motivation behind that and find it highly contradictory.
     
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  17. Just Passing Through

    Just Passing Through Rebel General

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    Who are the Knights of Ren? Some bad ass m*****f*****ers.

    http://sandoval-art.deviantart.com/art/STAR-WARS-THE-KNIGHTS-OF-REN-595757530
    [​IMG]

    ...Or a bunch of fodder lackeys.

    Seriously though, the reality will probably be somewhere in between. I personally would like them to be the new dark side order with a number of their members being former students of Luke who were corrupted by/alongside Ben. The only problem with that latter part is that it has been indicated that the KoR was a pre-existing organisation that Ben joined before becoming Kylo but I still think it would be interesting to have a few of them be former students of Luke.

    Not that I expect them to be fleshed out much but I think extra material could expand what we know about them and give them more coverage in general in addition to the appearances that a few of them will make in the ST, which I think is a certainty. I would prefer them to be a group of dark side FS rather than a bodyguard/elite stormtrooper unit. For some reason I have this vision of them leading FO units/divisions etc. like a dark version of the Jedi Generals of the Clone Wars.

    I doubt that they are Kylo's bodyguard unit, he really could have used their help during TFA, but that they are subordinate to Kylo is without doubt whether by choice or by Snoke's decree is another question. If they had the time to flesh out the members of the KoR then there would probably be a Kylo rival KoR; a faithful KoR; a brutal KoR etc. but I expect that the KoR will mostly be mysterious so the ones we do see will loyally follow Kylo. I hope so at least, god knows we don't need too much cliche bad guy infighting, at least not to the extent of stupidity.
     
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  18. Laggamaroo

    Laggamaroo Rebel Official

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    In that drawing, why do Kylo's arms come out of his ribcage? Weird anatomy there, even for a cartoon.

    I for one hope they don't just appear in the flashback and then are gone. The "good guys" have always seemed to outnumber the "bad guys" in these films (except for Luke's situation), and I'd like to see more Force-wielding villains in this saga. There have been several missed opportunities over the last 16 years to enrich the struggle between light and dark, and not fleshing out the KoR over the next film or two shouldn't be one of them.

    What I'm saying is I am hungry for a big ol' plate full of Knights of Ren. Gimme.
     
  19. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Rebel Official

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    In my opinion, the Knights of Ren are the only real difference between the strategies of Snoke and Sidious. Everything else is a continuation and probably what Sidious would've done himself.

    So why are the KOR important to Snoke? I think Snoke has learnt from the downfall of Vader. Unlike Vader, Kylo is already considered Master, and I get the feeling that Kylo views Snoke as a wise guidance, rather than someone who is more powerful than himself. I think Snoke has purposely created this dynamic between them. Snoke wants Kylo to feel as if he's serving the legacy of his murdered grandfather, rather than submissively serving a dark-side being (like Vader was with Sidious). Therefore, Snoke is not training Kylo to solely seek power - that doesn't seem to be what Kylo wants anyway - what Snoke wants is for Kylo to use the dark side to bring justice and revenge to those that were responsible for murdering his grandfather. The fact that the KOR were possibly Vader worshippers would only strengthen Kylo's cause to uphold Vader's legacy.
     
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  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 Bendemptionist
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    totally this. Kylo Ren thinks Snoke is his mentor, not his master.
    Snoke's created a dependency relationship rather than a slave. slaves revolt. dependents cling.

    we don't know if the KOR are specifically Vader-worshippers, but their interest in the Sith fits Ren's desire to be like his grandfather (and surpass him). it'll be interesting to see what their allegiances are like (to Snoke, the FO, to Ren himself).

    and i agree with @Just Passing Through : i don't really want to see squabbling. i want to see a cohesive, efficient clan.
    we get more than enough alpha catfighting with silly Hux.
     
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