SPECULATION Official Knights of Ren in Episode VIII Thread

Particularly in light of Snoke's "such a test" quote, I believe there could be something to this idea of Kylo having surpassed his "peers" in this group and/r demonstrated some greater ability or Force powers.

Some questions lingering in my mind:

• if Kylo is the only true Force sensitive among them
  
• if Kylo is simply regarded the "Master" because he was directly related to Darth Vader
• if they only appear in the vision (and are no further defined) perhaps they were an illusion cultivated in Kylo's mind by Snoke

The idea of the Knights of Ren, in this context of a personal squad, somewhat remind me of the Imperial Guard (AKA the Emperor's Royal Guard):
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor's_Royal_Guard

The more active and individualized aspect of the "mission role" for the Knights sets them up for another parallel I believe could be important for us to consider since the Sequel Trilogy appears to have intentionally incorporated Athurian legend/lore.


With that in mind, I'd like to post my next suggestion: a series of possible connections / comparisons between the KOR and King Arthur:

King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table
& The Knights of Ren

Some background:

In Camelot, King Arthur's castle, there was a Round Table where the Knights would sit and be equals among each other: no one could be said to be seated at the "head" or "top" of the table.

The table was, among other things, a symbol of fellowship.

There are several different accounts of the table in Arthurian literature, and there is eventually mention of Siege Perilous (The Periolous Seat):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_Perilous
-- a vacant seat reserved for the Knight who would successfully complete the Grail Quest. As in The Holy Grail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail

The Knights of the Round Table would go on quests, and there are many stories about that.

For more

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur
• https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Round_Table
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_Table
• http://www.britannica.com/topic/Round-Table-Arthurian-legend
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelot

Now, in the recent novel Aftermath (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aftermath) by Chuck Wendig there is a special group which emerges:

the Acolytes of the Beyond
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acolytes_of_the_Beyond

They are described as "a group of Dark Side fanatics."

They want Vader's lightsaber (the red-bladed one ).

• http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vader's_lightsaber
• http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-vaders-lightsaber

That is essentially their "Grail Quest" -- not for the "Grail" itself, so to speak, but instead their concept of Excalibur
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

I believe it is entirely possible, just as the First Order was formed "out of the ashes of the old Empire," the Knights of Ren could have evolved, at least in part, from the Acolytes of the Beyond.

Paralleling some accounts of Arthur lore, someone like Snoke and/or Yupe Tashu (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yupe_Tashu) could have been their sort of "Merlin," leading them along to this.

It is not entirely clear why the Acolytes would want the lightsaber beyond having their wish to destroy it and therefore reunite it with its owner. What would that achieve? Why would that be their stated quest?

It sounds something like a Sith ritual -- something along the lines of what was once called Sith Alchemy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_alchemy) which was said to involve "any power or technique which used the Dark side of the Force to permanently alter an item or living being."

Perhaps the Acolytes already fulfilled their mission. Or did they? Where is the lightsaber?

Perhaps it will be revealed Snoke has the lightsaber and part of his "completing Kylo Ren's training" involves him giving Kylo Ren Darth Vader's lightsaber

-- the Dark Side Excalibur.
Rey has the Light Side Excalibur -- Anakin and then Luke's original lightsaber .

The parallels and antitheses between the Knights of Arthur and the Knights of Ren set up numerous interpretative possibilities.

In the one scene we see them in, the Knights of Ren appear motley, ominous, literally hell-bent on achieving something -- and having stopped at nothing to do it.

This begs such questions...

• What do they want?
• Does the group function collectively?
• Does each Knight have her or his own quest?
• Where did they come from?
• Are they all human?
• Could some be droids?
• Where will they go next?
• Who was their master before Kylo Ren?
• Who or what do they ultimately serve?

And why does one of them look like Boba Fett -- a Mandalorian warrior?

Could some or all of the Knights of Ren instead be from the Death Watch group?
http://www.starwars.com/databank/death-watch
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Watch



JediMasterRobert

 

Thank you, Empire Jo!

This is an incredibly good point and something I think can be very relevant.

In fact, it seems to connect with some other aspects I mentioned above, plus something else which potentially could tie things together:

• Sith Ritual / Sith Alchemy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_alchemy) which was said to involve "any power or technique which used the Dark side of the Force to permanently alter an item or living being."
  
• Yupe Tashu (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yupe_Tashu)

Your excellent question:

Finds a possible answer in Yupe Tashu:

• "Although he could not use the Force himself, Tashu was a historian of the dark side and a Sith cultist. Following the death of the Emperor during the Battle of Endor, Tashu became a part of the Imperial Future Council, a group of high-ranking officials who met on Akiva to decide the future of the shattered Empire."

A Sith historian!

Vader's lightsaber is a Sith relic.

As for the Acolytes of the Beyond seeking to destroy it to reunite it with its master, it does not seem to make much sense to have them state this as their purpose, have that done, and then have them retreat from the story.

I think they were introduced for a very good reason. I imagine they could be doing this with a potentially larger purpose:

• possibly to resurrect Darth Vader...

• "The Sith'ari will raise the Sith from death and make them stronger than before."

And now...

• Enter Darth Plagueis, master of life over death. In person or reference or as an analogue.
  
• Snoke either then revealed as Plagueis or something similar to that character (perhaps a former apprentice of Plagueis who turned from the Sith)
• or Snoke revealed as connected with or being Yupe Tashu

Yupe Tashu / Snoke could then have guided the Acolytes to Ben Solo, possibly have them infiltrate Luke's Jedi Academy, and then help Snoke turn Ben.

The Acolytes would have been very reverent toward Ben, possibly even revered him like a god, because they were that taken with Vader and the Sith.

Imagine a young confused thought-he-was-outcast / unspecial Ben Solo suddenly surrounded by those who admired him for his lineage and perhaps even bowed to him, pledging themselves to serving him perhaps.

Then possibly they accept Ben as Kylo -- their leader -- and they, under Yupe Tashu / Snoke's guidance, become The Knights of Ren...

JediMasterRobert

 

This is one of those things I hope J. J. did not intend to keep permanently locked away in his famous "mystery box."

I hope Rian gives us a good look at these characters and gets us some information to understand them on some basic level.

I do understand, and to a certain degree, appreciate J.J. Abrams' approach to generating mystery, but I think there can sometimes be too much mystery in any given story, especially it manages to create many more questions (including ones regarding basic plot points) than actual established points of information and enjoyable content.

Left undeveloped, a lot of those "mystery items" can go to waste and even be dismissed as shallow or rendered meaningless since they could mean anything.

I think, ever since Obi-Wan's explanation to Luke regarding what happened to Anakin Skywalker, that there's a precedent of sorts for one thing being said while something else might be true...

(you knew it was coming...)

"from a certain point of view."

Luke's students, even if early into his Jedi Academy, would have been somewhat capable Force sensitives, I think. It was said somewhere that Ben had the advantage of lightsaber skills, which then seems to place him on the level of Anakin as Anakin entered the Jedi Temple and confronted the younglings.

That group of young padawans, by the way, was known as The Bear Clan or The Mighty Bear Clan
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bear_Clan

And I had briefly wondered if the Knights of Ren had any possible connection with those, even though we were lead to believe Anakin did (as Ben was said to have done) the unthinkable.

I'm betting, if anything, they are more likely to get their own comic or novel.

I do think, though, they could appear in one or more of the "anthology" films.

The pre-existing part of their storyline was established unofficially (through an interview, if I recall correctly). Maybe it was also said in one of the Force Awakens books (Art of or Visual Dictionary).

That they might have been around before leads to a number questions:

• how did they form?
• who was their founding leader?
• were they previously known under a different name, such as the Acolytes of the Beyond?
• are they former bounty hunters? former Sith? resurrected Dark Side spirits? ex-Mandalorians? humans? aliens? figments of imagination?

I think that them possibly being Luke's former students -- "destroyed" by having turned to the Dark Side -- could make this even more intriguing when we consider the possibility of Luke having to confront his former students.

If so, I wonder if part of his challenge would be to see if he could bring them back to the Light.

The Knights of Ren look scary enough, but I believe they need some basic storyline basis to be taken serious and understood as something other than some Dark Side cosplayers.

The Bounty Hunters scene in The Empire Strikes Back is a good comparison point, I think. We get to see those characters, and, as briefly it unfolds, we know they are Bounty Hunters, and we get at least an inkling of their purpose in the storyline, and without any major exposition.

I believe Snoke, if he's truly been around and as "wise" as he's said to be, would have a greater sense of what worked and what did not within the Empire and would have used that knowledge to make the First Order far more formidable.

The only connections we have between The Knights of Ren and The First Order is:

• we see them standing with Kylo Ren, who is part of the First Order
• we hear Snoke, Supreme Leader of The First Order, reference them by name

Other than that, perhaps they are some kind of satellite group with their own plans and missions.

Now here's another thought:

could it be, if Snoke is actually Darth Plagueis (and it is established that DP did create Anakin Skywalker through manipulating the midi-chlorians) that Snoke/DP is seeking to avenge his fallen son who he believes has been wrongfully lead back to the Light through Luke's appealing to Anakin's "sentiment."

This, along with the obsession of Kylo with Darth Vader, the Acolytes with Vader's lightsaber, and Snoke with the Skywalker line, perhaps contributes the slightest bit of credence to the possibility of Snoke and/or the Acolytes (possibly now the Knights of Ren) seeking to resurrect Darth Vader and/or bring his Force spirit back through Kylo and/or Snoke.

JediMasterRobert

 

Yes, I remember hearing there Kylo and Snoke were not Sith.

And I know the Sith are gone. The Sith were an organization of Dark Side Force sensitives.

Now we have The Knights of Ren who are described in generally similar ways:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knights_of_Ren

I know there can and have been former Jedi (e.g. the Rogue Jedi http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue_Jedi) and former Sith (e.g. Darth Maul http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maul).

So, I think, coming from the main Darth Plagueis thread, even though enthusiasm for that possibility has been reduced in recent weeks in light of various tweets, realizations, and other considerations, I think that there is still the (however remote) possibility Snoke could have been a former Sith, possibly formerly Darth Plagueis or a reincarnated form of that being, or someone who knew him, or a former apprentice.

I'm just keeping my options open (and hopes up) until I learn more about all of these things

JediMasterRobert

 

At one point in Aftermath, when Tashu appears wearing a red demonic mask, he says

"My technique takes time, but I have been trained by the best. The ancient Sith art of --"​

-- and the he's cut off at that moment by Pandion.

Ancient Sith art.

No Sith around, and yet a strong Sith reference and an unambiguous link to that very specific brand of Dark Side users.

This, for me, could link (directly or indirectly) Tashu with Snoke and/or the Knights of Ren, especially because they all seem to be proceeding from an earlier age, an ancient, Snoke most of all in that "wizened" and supposedly "wise" regard.

The Knights of Ren also seem to have a peculiar pre- or non-Sith aesthetic that speaks of an earlier age...

like the ancient Mandalorian Protectors
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Protectors_(Mandalorians)

For me, there definitely seems to be something underlying Snoke's tone in the movie when he says it, something approaching mockery or amusement when he references the Knights of Ren.

In the novelization there's something else:

after he mentions this (and the part about BB-8 being on the Falcon) and Kylo responds, Snoke replies with a "we will see" and it's described as "a dismissal."​

Then, as Kylo leaves, Snoke displays "a grotesque smile" and is described as disappearing in a manner comparable with the Cheshire Cat from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

Rather insidious of Snoke as that part goes.

JediMasterRobert