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SPECULATION Official Knights of Ren in Episode VIII Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by JediMasterRobert, Mar 11, 2016.

?

Are the KOR Acolytes of the Beyond?

  1. Yes!

    5 vote(s)
    10.2%
  2. No! They have nothing to do with them.

    24 vote(s)
    49.0%
  3. Yes! At least they were...

    20 vote(s)
    40.8%
  1. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Particularly in light of Snoke's "such a test" quote, I believe there could be something to this idea of Kylo having surpassed his "peers" in this group and/r demonstrated some greater ability or Force powers.

    Some questions lingering in my mind:
    • if Kylo is the only true Force sensitive among them
    • if Kylo is simply regarded the "Master" because he was directly related to Darth Vader
    • if they only appear in the vision (and are no further defined) perhaps they were an illusion cultivated in Kylo's mind by Snoke

    The idea of the Knights of Ren, in this context of a personal squad, somewhat remind me of the Imperial Guard (AKA the Emperor's Royal Guard):
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor's_Royal_Guard

    The more active and individualized aspect of the "mission role" for the Knights sets them up for another parallel I believe could be important for us to consider since the Sequel Trilogy appears to have intentionally incorporated Athurian legend/lore.


    With that in mind, I'd like to post my next suggestion: a series of possible connections / comparisons between the KOR and King Arthur:

    King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table
    & The Knights of Ren


    Some background:

    In Camelot, King Arthur's castle, there was a Round Table where the Knights would sit and be equals among each other: no one could be said to be seated at the "head" or "top" of the table.

    The table was, among other things, a symbol of fellowship.

    There are several different accounts of the table in Arthurian literature, and there is eventually mention of Siege Perilous (The Periolous Seat):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_Perilous
    -- a vacant seat reserved for the Knight who would successfully complete the Grail Quest. As in The Holy Grail.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail

    The Knights of the Round Table would go on quests, and there are many stories about that.

    For more
    Now, in the recent novel Aftermath (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aftermath) by Chuck Wendig there is a special group which emerges:

    the Acolytes of the Beyond
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acolytes_of_the_Beyond

    They are described as "a group of Dark Side fanatics."

    They want Vader's lightsaber (the red-bladed one (red)).

    That is essentially their "Grail Quest" -- not for the "Grail" itself, so to speak, but instead their concept of Excalibur
    https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

    I believe it is entirely possible, just as the First Order was formed "out of the ashes of the old Empire," the Knights of Ren could have evolved, at least in part, from the Acolytes of the Beyond.

    Paralleling some accounts of Arthur lore, someone like Snoke and/or Yupe Tashu (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yupe_Tashu) could have been their sort of "Merlin," leading them along to this.

    It is not entirely clear why the Acolytes would want the lightsaber beyond having their wish to destroy it and therefore reunite it with its owner. What would that achieve? Why would that be their stated quest?

    It sounds something like a Sith ritual -- something along the lines of what was once called Sith Alchemy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_alchemy) which was said to involve "any power or technique which used the Dark side of the Force to permanently alter an item or living being."

    Perhaps the Acolytes already fulfilled their mission. Or did they? Where is the lightsaber?

    Perhaps it will be revealed Snoke has the lightsaber and part of his "completing Kylo Ren's training" involves him giving Kylo Ren Darth Vader's lightsaber

    -- the Dark Side Excalibur.
    Rey has the Light Side Excalibur -- Anakin and then Luke's original lightsaber (blue).

    The parallels and antitheses between the Knights of Arthur and the Knights of Ren set up numerous interpretative possibilities.

    In the one scene we see them in, the Knights of Ren appear motley, ominous, literally hell-bent on achieving something -- and having stopped at nothing to do it.

    This begs such questions...
    • What do they want?
    • Does the group function collectively?
    • Does each Knight have her or his own quest?
    • Where did they come from?
    • Are they all human?
    • Could some be droids?
    • Where will they go next?
    • Who was their master before Kylo Ren?
    • Who or what do they ultimately serve?
    And why does one of them look like Boba Fett -- a Mandalorian warrior?

    Could some or all of the Knights of Ren instead be from the Death Watch group?
    http://www.starwars.com/databank/death-watch
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Watch

    (boba fett)

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  2. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Just a small thing, but in Aftermath the AoB obtain a red bladed light saber, but it's left open as to whether the blade was really Vader's or not. I'm not really sure why this was left in doubt, if they are trying to do the legacy of Vader thing. So I guess the saber technically could have been any Sith Lord's. I would really love to know for sure who it belonged too...
     
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  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Also WHY Vader when I believe it should be their obsession with the Skywalker legacy and the power of the force of which Vader is with their search being for his Jedi saber .
     
  4. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Maybe they viewed Vader as a Sith'ari.

    "The Sith'ari will be free of limits.
    The Sith'ari will lead the Sith and destroy them.
    The Sith'ari will raise the Sith from death and make them stronger than before."

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith'ari

    But this begs the question of how could they have known of this bit of Sith knowledge, and how could the AoB evolved into the KoR?
     
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  5. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    They knew by watching for over a millennia and they may have evolved with Palpatine sending his peeps beyond the outer rim with them having interacted with the aob as a result and morphing through some sort of uprising and there being s resurrected Bane type of a character .
     
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  6. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    That's interesting. And it ties in with Vader (not having limits, destroying the Sith and perhaps being resurrected - either through his grandson or perhaps literally with a reincarnation of 'The Chosen One').

    My thoughts on the KoR is that they were born from the Acolytes of the Beyond - who were essentially the Sith counterpart to the Church of the Force. The Acolytes were obsessed by the Sith but were not violent - until they are approached by Snoke who gave them the knowledge of the Dark Side. This turned them violent and then Snoke provided them with their master - Kylo Ren. Direct descendent of Darth Vader, the Chosen One.
     
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  7. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Thank you, Empire Jo!

    This is an incredibly good point and something I think can be very relevant.

    In fact, it seems to connect with some other aspects I mentioned above, plus something else which potentially could tie things together:
    Your excellent question:

    Finds a possible answer in Yupe Tashu:
    A Sith historian!

    Vader's lightsaber is a Sith relic.

    As for the Acolytes of the Beyond seeking to destroy it to reunite it with its master, it does not seem to make much sense to have them state this as their purpose, have that done, and then have them retreat from the story.

    I think they were introduced for a very good reason. I imagine they could be doing this with a potentially larger purpose:

    • possibly to resurrect Darth Vader...
    • "The Sith'ari will raise the Sith from death and make them stronger than before."
    And now...
    • Enter Darth Plagueis, master of life over death. In person or reference or as an analogue.
    • Snoke either then revealed as Plagueis or something similar to that character (perhaps a former apprentice of Plagueis who turned from the Sith)
    • or Snoke revealed as connected with or being Yupe Tashu
    Yupe Tashu / Snoke could then have guided the Acolytes to Ben Solo, possibly have them infiltrate Luke's Jedi Academy, and then help Snoke turn Ben.

    The Acolytes would have been very reverent toward Ben, possibly even revered him like a god, because they were that taken with Vader and the Sith.

    Imagine a young confused thought-he-was-outcast / unspecial Ben Solo suddenly surrounded by those who admired him for his lineage and perhaps even bowed to him, pledging themselves to serving him perhaps.

    Then possibly they accept Ben as Kylo -- their leader -- and they, under Yupe Tashu / Snoke's guidance, become The Knights of Ren...

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  8. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Wasn't Tashu captured by the Rebel Alliance, I mean, New Republic? How does he go from that to hooking up with AoB or the KoR, surely they wouldn't let him go walkabout? Btw, I really don't get how Palpatine tolerated such a sycophantic sheep like Tashu, he was wet as water. No way that blind mullet is Snoke. I guess it's possible he got used by Snoke in some way at some point, he would be easy to manipulate.

    Though I do find it interesting that Tupu had in his possession a Sith artifact, a 'red metal mask with demonic features'. Makes me excited that Revan will once again be cannon. Maybe the red light saber the AoB obtained was Revan's, not Vaders... Not canon (yet), but didn't Revan's ressurected evil Force half leave his saber and mask behind on Yavin 4?

    I don't know how connected to the KoR Snoke is, he seems pretty distainful of them when talking to Kylo.
     
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  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    consider it me being more hard on fishy-eyed Snokie-poke.
    he's the one who did it to the poor kid. hahaha
     
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  10. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Well it's coming back to bite him this time.
     
  11. PadmesLaceyPanties

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    How many of these Knights Of Ren will be killed in 8

    I mean clearly Rey,Luke, and The Resistance will encounter them

    Since Snoke is so bothered by Skywalkers return,Maybe Snoke gets Kylo Ren to order the Knights Of Ren to hunt for Skywalker
     
  12. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    Probably a couple. But I could see them maybe just barely being force to withdraw (after doing some damage first) once all of the heroes converge.
     
  13. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    I don't understand why people are using the past tense when referring to KoR. Does TFA make any reference to them being defunct or dead? We only see one Star Destroyer of the First Order, and one base. We never see where Snoke is.

    We see Kylo Ren among them when the Jedi Academy is slaughtered.

    I don't see any reason to suspect they're dead.
     
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  14. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    This is one of those things I hope J. J. did not intend to keep permanently locked away in his famous "mystery box."

    I hope Rian gives us a good look at these characters and gets us some information to understand them on some basic level.

    I do understand, and to a certain degree, appreciate J.J. Abrams' approach to generating mystery, but I think there can sometimes be too much mystery in any given story, especially it manages to create many more questions (including ones regarding basic plot points) than actual established points of information and enjoyable content.

    Left undeveloped, a lot of those "mystery items" can go to waste and even be dismissed as shallow or rendered meaningless since they could mean anything.

    I think, ever since Obi-Wan's explanation to Luke regarding what happened to Anakin Skywalker, that there's a precedent of sorts for one thing being said while something else might be true...

    (you knew it was coming...)

    "from a certain point of view." :)

    Luke's students, even if early into his Jedi Academy, would have been somewhat capable Force sensitives, I think. It was said somewhere that Ben had the advantage of lightsaber skills, which then seems to place him on the level of Anakin as Anakin entered the Jedi Temple and confronted the younglings.

    That group of young padawans, by the way, was known as The Bear Clan or The Mighty Bear Clan
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bear_Clan

    And I had briefly wondered if the Knights of Ren had any possible connection with those, even though we were lead to believe Anakin did (as Ben was said to have done) the unthinkable.

    I'm betting, if anything, they are more likely to get their own comic or novel.

    I do think, though, they could appear in one or more of the "anthology" films.

    The pre-existing part of their storyline was established unofficially (through an interview, if I recall correctly). Maybe it was also said in one of the Force Awakens books (Art of or Visual Dictionary).

    That they might have been around before leads to a number questions:
    • how did they form?
    • who was their founding leader?
    • were they previously known under a different name, such as the Acolytes of the Beyond?
    • are they former bounty hunters? former Sith? resurrected Dark Side spirits? ex-Mandalorians? humans? aliens? figments of imagination?
    I think that them possibly being Luke's former students -- "destroyed" by having turned to the Dark Side -- could make this even more intriguing when we consider the possibility of Luke having to confront his former students.

    If so, I wonder if part of his challenge would be to see if he could bring them back to the Light.

    The Knights of Ren look scary enough, but I believe they need some basic storyline basis to be taken serious and understood as something other than some Dark Side cosplayers.

    The Bounty Hunters scene in The Empire Strikes Back is a good comparison point, I think. We get to see those characters, and, as briefly it unfolds, we know they are Bounty Hunters, and we get at least an inkling of their purpose in the storyline, and without any major exposition.

    I believe Snoke, if he's truly been around and as "wise" as he's said to be, would have a greater sense of what worked and what did not within the Empire and would have used that knowledge to make the First Order far more formidable.

    The only connections we have between The Knights of Ren and The First Order is:
    • we see them standing with Kylo Ren, who is part of the First Order
    • we hear Snoke, Supreme Leader of The First Order, reference them by name
    Other than that, perhaps they are some kind of satellite group with their own plans and missions.

    Now here's another thought:

    could it be, if Snoke is actually Darth Plagueis (and it is established that DP did create Anakin Skywalker through manipulating the midi-chlorians) that Snoke/DP is seeking to avenge his fallen son who he believes has been wrongfully lead back to the Light through Luke's appealing to Anakin's "sentiment."

    This, along with the obsession of Kylo with Darth Vader, the Acolytes with Vader's lightsaber, and Snoke with the Skywalker line, perhaps contributes the slightest bit of credence to the possibility of Snoke and/or the Acolytes (possibly now the Knights of Ren) seeking to resurrect Darth Vader and/or bring his Force spirit back through Kylo and/or Snoke.

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  15. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    It's been stated explicitly that Snoke isn't a Sith. He can't be Darth Plagueis
     
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  16. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Yes, I remember hearing there Kylo and Snoke were not Sith.

    And I know the Sith are gone. The Sith were an organization of Dark Side Force sensitives.

    Now we have The Knights of Ren who are described in generally similar ways:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knights_of_Ren

    I know there can and have been former Jedi (e.g. the Rogue Jedi http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue_Jedi) and former Sith (e.g. Darth Maul http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maul).

    So, I think, coming from the main Darth Plagueis thread, even though enthusiasm for that possibility has been reduced in recent weeks in light of various tweets, realizations, and other considerations, I think that there is still the (however remote) possibility Snoke could have been a former Sith, possibly formerly Darth Plagueis or a reincarnated form of that being, or someone who knew him, or a former apprentice.

    I'm just keeping my options open (and hopes up) until I learn more about all of these things :)

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  17. Laggamaroo

    Laggamaroo Rebel Official

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    This is exactly what I'm hoping they are. The talk of this trilogy being about a moral grey area and dealing with the consequences of one's actions in life (can't remember the source on that, sorry) would fit well with this idea.
     
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  18. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    I personally think the Knights of Ren are a much more patchwork organization than most think. Looking at them in the rain shot with Kylo you can see no one has the same gear on or same type of weapon. I think they are more a group of highly skilled warriors assembled by Snoke and Kylo is their leader because he has force ability. They are not an Order like the Jedi but instead are more like a fearsome militia who take Orders from no one but Snoke. For lack of a better way of describing it, picture the Star Wars version of The Expendables kind of.

    As far as Snoke goes, I would be extremely disappointed if they were unable to come up with a new original character that had some ties to the past but is 100% new. I think him being a new character could make his creation of the Knights and how and why he assembled them that much more interesting. Fingers crossed for no Plagueis.
     
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  19. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    At one point in Aftermath, when Tashu appears wearing a red demonic mask, he says

    "My technique takes time, but I have been trained by the best. The ancient Sith art of --"

    -- and the he's cut off at that moment by Pandion.

    Ancient Sith art.

    No Sith around, and yet a strong Sith reference and an unambiguous link to that very specific brand of Dark Side users.

    This, for me, could link (directly or indirectly) Tashu with Snoke and/or the Knights of Ren, especially because they all seem to be proceeding from an earlier age, an ancient, Snoke most of all in that "wizened" and supposedly "wise" regard.

    The Knights of Ren also seem to have a peculiar pre- or non-Sith aesthetic that speaks of an earlier age...

    like the ancient Mandalorian Protectors
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Protectors_(Mandalorians)


    For me, there definitely seems to be something underlying Snoke's tone in the movie when he says it, something approaching mockery or amusement when he references the Knights of Ren.

    In the novelization there's something else:

    after he mentions this (and the part about BB-8 being on the Falcon) and Kylo responds, Snoke replies with a "we will see" and it's described as "a dismissal."​

    Then, as Kylo leaves, Snoke displays "a grotesque smile" and is described as disappearing in a manner comparable with the Cheshire Cat from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

    Rather insidious of Snoke as that part goes. :)

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  20. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    I don't think they're dead. The Knights of Ren are probably what I'm most excited about seeing in Ep VIII. :D

    I used the past tense to describe how I think their dark-side motivations would have linked them to Kylo Ren. I think they view Kylo as the descendent of the dark side messiah, Darth Vader. I think the KOR worshipped Vader because they viewed him as a perfect being born of the force (possibly through the will of the dark side) who destroyed the Sith and opened up a path for the dark side to be reborn again. They think Vader was destined to lead the dark side into its new age, but as a result of his death, Kylo was seen as the heir to the throne so to speak.
     
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