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SPECULATION Official Knights of Ren in Episode VIII Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by JediMasterRobert, Mar 11, 2016.

?

Are the KOR Acolytes of the Beyond?

  1. Yes!

    5 vote(s)
    10.2%
  2. No! They have nothing to do with them.

    24 vote(s)
    49.0%
  3. Yes! At least they were...

    20 vote(s)
    40.8%
  1. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    Okay, thanks for clarifying. Sorry I misunderstood.
     
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  2. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I find this very constructive and helpful.

    This also helps me find more reason to link the Acolytes of the Beyond with The Knights of Ren.

    Perhaps "Ren" was the Acolytes' word for their "Dark Side messiah."

    Having found that in Ben Solo, they then possibly became The Knights of Ren, with him as their chosen master.

    Now, someone would do well to point out the Knights were said to have already existed before Kylo came on board.

    And that is still very possible under this scenario:

    The Knights of Ren simply might have existed under an earlier name (AOTB) and became the KOR due to them having found Kylo.​

    Just a theory, of course, but at least some of the puzzle pieces seem almost to fit :)

    JediMasterRobert
     
    #62 JediMasterRobert, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
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  3. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    I think Kylo himself assembled them. A colorful mixture of warriors or former headhunters. They followed Kylo because he needed them to support him when he went on his "revenge-mission". Don't know if he needs them anymore. I don't think that they are directly tied to snoke. Snoke showed very little respect for Kylo and his " Knights" when he talked to Kylo in TFA. Snokes voice in German synchro was full of irony saying:"Even you Master of the KOR..". Therefore my guess is KOR being completely a project of young kylo recruiting a gang under his command. Snoke let him do as long as kor walked along paths that matched with his own goals.
     
    #63 oldbert, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
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  4. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Tashu is not Force sensitive, and most likely knows diddly sqat about any true Sith arts. Pandion cuts him off because he knows Tashu is full of Sith. All foam, no beer. At best, he gets used by the real string pullers. I guess it's possible he imparts some soothsay cant into the KoR. I bet this is why Snoke is disdainful towards them.


    I love the idea of Snoke as the Chesire Cat:

    “How cheerfully he seems to grin, How neatly spread his claws, And welcome little fishes in With gently smiling jaws!”

    The cat comes and he goes - he's is and he isn't - he's there then he's not.... When the Queen of Hearts tries to behead the cat, he disappears, but his head remains and he asks, “can something that does not have a body be beheaded?”

    Then you look a Kylo Ren and his relationship with his mentor:

    "Only a very few find the way, and most of them don't recognize it when they do. Delusions, too, die hard. Only the savage regard the endurance of pain as the measure of worth. Forgetting pain is convenient, remembering it... agonizing. But recovering the truth is worth the suffering and our Wonderland, though damaged, is safe in memory... for now."
    — Cheshire Cat to Alice

    The Chesire Cat is quite symbolic of how nonsense has a way of making sense, and of how choices are the only truth, and that truth can't be discerned from the logical or illogical, or notions of good and evil. Ties in quite nicely to Snoke.
     
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  5. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    I feel the opposite about Snoke speaking of the KoR. He says "Even you...master of the KoR have never faced such a test" as if to say you are the boss of the knights which are bad ass and this is still going to be hard for you. I don't see any evidence yet suggesting Snoke had nothing to do with them forming. Also, both Leia and Han said Snoke directly seduced Kylo that makes me think Snoke would have convinced him to turn then supplied him with support to go back and destroy the academy.
     
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  6. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Snoke is just blowing smoke up Kylo's ass in order to manipulate him into doing what Snoke wants there.

    It's true there is no real evidence regarding the relationship between Snoke and KoR yet, only his disdainful tone when he mentions them and the fact he is their leader's mentor.

    I think Snoke is sneaky and indirect. He let's people think they are doing their own thing, when really they are puppets on a string.
     
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  7. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    I get where you're coming from, and we are all absolutely entitled to our opinion, but the creative team seems to take every opportunity to distance the KoR, Kylo, and Snoke from Plagueis and the Sith overall.


    I'm a bit worried they'll make Snoke & co. have some overt Sith connection, which I think would be less interesting and make the Dark Side seem less powerful and seductive.
    If you could only turn because of contact/mentoring from one group (Sith) then the symbolism of the Dark Side is kind of lost.

    I'm definitely looking forward to learning if the KoR are still around and what their function is: bodyguards of Snoke, proxies who get their hands dirty and are open to being killed, which the hidden Snoke (like Palpatine) won't be.

    I don't think it's beneath Snoke to be feeding Kylo's ego by being a little dismissive of the KoR when they speak. Good leaders know how to motivate, and since he likely does a lot of hologram communication with his followers, he can subtly show favor or disapproval to each, depending on who he's talking to and their mood.

    We have a lot of interesting answers, as well as questions to be raised in Episode VIII.

    I have a suspicion some of the KoR are ex-pupils of Luke, or just one. We don't know for sure that none of them have lightsabers, especially after the slaughter.

    They are shown at the slaughter but I can't recall any statement that none of those guys have a lightsaber on their belt.

    I wonder if some are training with Snoke in hiding too. Wouldn't that be an interesting climax? Luke, Rey, Finn, and Chewie try to sneak into the Supreme Leader's Lair (they could bring back that lava room concept art from Jedi) and find 7 guys with lightsabers?
     
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  8. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I believe this could be true, even as there are strong visual parallels the storytellers seemed to have wanted to keep (red lightsaber, masked villain, Vader's helmet, holographic leader, master/apprentice relationship, a Sith-inspired superweapon in Starkiller Base).

    I think Aftermath speaks volumes about the idea of there being a source for the Dark Side that not even Sidious understood, and that, plus that we know there can be other interpretations of the Force (e.g. the Lasat), means there can be other non-Sith Dark Side users with unique perspectives on the Dark Side.

    One of the more interesting characters, Yupe Tashu (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yupe_Tashu) references the Sith as a Dark Side historian.

    The Acolytes of the Beyond (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acolytes_of_the_Beyond) which I mentioned earlier were also deep into Vader.

    I should say Plagueis came to mind, in my previous post, because I think, for him to have been any bit of a viable character with a compelling story which did not upset the prophecy of the balance of the Force fulfilled by Anakin, that he would have to have been a non-Sith, possibly not even an active Force sensitive of any kind, during the end of Return of the Jedi.

    Part of the larger consideration of Sith vs. non-Sith classification is that we've had six movies and more material all rooted in or relative to Jedi vs. Sith perspectives, and everything before and afterwards gets judged by or compared with those dominant interpretations of the Force.

    Before that there were things such as the Je'daii (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je'daii_Order) and the Sith'ari (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sithari) among others.

    Perhaps we will learn Snoke, The Knights of Ren, and Kylo share in a new view of the Dark Side of the Force.

    In my mythological studies, I know who varied and interesting these things can get, and it would be great if the storytellers in charge did find new ways to help us explore the mysteries of the Force through new groups.

    That would be quite an interesting surprise and challenge. I've envisioned such a massive showdown scene as this before, and I think it would be effective, especially if the Knights of Ren were shown to be Force sensitives and suddenly brandished lightsabers.

    Could be quite a stunning visual sequence as well!

    (red)(green)(blue)(duel)(crossguard)(dual)(lightsaber)

    JediMasterRobert
     
    #68 JediMasterRobert, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
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  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    like @Empire Jo and @oldbert, i think Snoke's reference to the KOR is pretty derisive: okay bigshot, with your little knights' club; you want to show what you're made of? here's something you can do to (attempt to) impress me.

    but even if that's the case, it doesn't really say much about the KOR. i get the feeling Snoke pretty much feels that way with everything and everyone.
     
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  10. Just Passing Through

    Just Passing Through Rebel General

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    I don't know about the Visual Dictionary but I found some articles that I posted in a previous KoR thread which seemed to indicate that the KoR was a pre-existing organisation and that Ben took the name 'Kylo Ren' from that group:
    Whether 'Ren' is a title unique to Kylo or more of a 'Darth' like title is something we'll only learn if we encounter another KoR and get told their name. The former corrupted students of Luke angle would be a less obscure background for the KoR and also provide neat jigsaw pieces to the puzzle that is the space between ROTJ and TFA. We'll uncover more of that past as we encounter each of these corrupted students in a similar vein to Kill Bill film series.

    However, that a few of these KoR seem to be wielding blasters would rule them out of being former jedi students although I am intrigued by the halberd wielding and the BFS wielding KoR.

    We know so little about the KoR and I fear we won't learn much more but I remain hopeful that Ep.VIII will prove me wrong.
    Is this interpretation of Snoke's reference to the KoR based on the book? Because I got none of this from the scene in the film. Snoke seemed to be suffering from a speech impediment, likely due to his wounds, rather than mocking Ren and the KoR.
     
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  11. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    This is another place in the movie where I'm unsure whether the remarks are sarcastic or in earnest. The "She withstood you, Master of the Knights of Ren?" to me sounds like Snoke is kinda impressed that Rey was besting Mr. Powerful, but then he goes on to say, "Bring her to me." Subtext: "Don't worry, I'll show you how to do it, weakling." :confused:

    If anyone has a snippet of the novelization or the script to share from the scene between Snoke and Kylo, please post it!
     
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  12. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    Exactly. And I think Hamill deserves to do a kickass lightsaber fight with one handed moves like he wanted in ROTJ
     
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  13. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Yes, one at the very least :)

    (lightsaber)

    JediMasterRobert
     
  14. FN-3263827

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    this is my interpretation of what may be a bad line reading from Serkis for all i know. interestingly, @oldbert says it's got the same timbre in the German dub, but that could just be taking a cue from the English one.

    in the book both scenes between Kylo Ren and Snoke are very different in key ways.
    Ren does not seem all that perturbed when Snoke tells him to deal with Han (after he fluffs him up how special he is). then, later, when Ren fails to break Rey, Snoke accuses Ren of feeling compassion for her, and makes a threat about giving him a reminder of the Dark side.

    in the book, it seems very clear that Snoke treats Ren like a thing to be petted or punished at his whims and Ren is kinda, i don't know, almost googly-eyed and giddy for it (i find it kinda disgusting, actually).

    the movie plays Snoke much more neutral.

    so it's hard to get a read on the KOR line because i think there's subtext there, possibly? but i'm not confident that the inflection on the line is intentional. if we believe Serkis is giving the performance that Abrams asked for, then i don't believe it's just a speech impediment. i think Snoke is being a [expletive deleted].

    edit: welcome to the Cantina, folks, where cr@cker is a dirty word, but vulgar references to the male anatomy are not ~ hahaha
     
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  15. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    The Bloodline novel coming out in May could possibly shed a tiny bit of light on what exactly Kylo's/Ben's timeline for assembling/joining/whatever he did with the KoR. One would think they are at least mentioned and surely if the book is about Leia then Kylo/Ben will be mentioned. Looking at the posters I would say its safe to assume some of Leia's darkside connections are going to be brought up. Possibly her Father and her son.

    bloodlinefinalposterprint-1jpg-c750e8-720x959.jpg bloodlinefinalposterprint-2jpg-0d87c1-720x959.jpg
     
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    i love those posters!

    i think tweets and interviews with Gray have suggested we shouldn't hope for too much, as the focus will be on Leia and her dealings with the senate, etc.
    the important stuff about Ben's downfall and betrayal is being left for the films, it seems. but who knows?
    i would be thrilled so see some breadcumbs. i'm definitely reading Bloodline!
     
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  17. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    I am definitely giving it a shot. I don't expect anything huge but like some of the other new novels they do slip a little line or two in there that can lead to some pretty substantial speculation on things. That's better than nothing. I'd bet on there being a few Ben/Kylo name drops in there.

    EDIT:
    SWNN just put up a new synopsis for the novel. Looks like at this point Leia was still using her full name and Solo was part of it. This kind of makes me feel Han and Ben will be more likely to be brought up.

    http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016/03/new-synopsis-claudia-grays-star-wars-bloodline.html




    tumblr_o0603rC6cV1v36l0fo1_500.gif

     
    #77 sbs87, Mar 17, 2016
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  18. thetophus

    thetophus Rebelscum

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    I wish they'd done this in the movie, that would be been amazing!
     
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  19. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    The more I look at the pictures the more I think the Knights are just kind of Kylo's hit squad. The guy to Kylo's right looks like he uses some type of bat as a weapon. I don't see them being force sensitive. The weirdest piece of the puzzle is the timeline unless Kylo ran away from the academy and then came back a while later with the Knights. That's the only way the scene in the forceback makes sense.

    Star-Wars-Knights-of-Ren-Explained.jpg
     
  20. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    I saw a post of @LadyMusashi about the aftermath novel. It seems that the author mentions something about the KOR and that they have been around much longer then I guessed. That proofs I was wrong and Kylo joined the KOR not the other way round as I guessed. Therefore I only read about the KOR for a while until I get a more detailed picture of them and their relation to their young Master:)
     
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