Official Luke Skywalker Episode VIII Discussion Thread

Omg, I know it's not 100% proof but the feeling I had that crait was tacked on the end is feeling more solidified.

I don't particularly like Colin Treverrow but imagine getting Luke's death perhaps late in the game. That's bad. RJ cut JJ's beginning and added that ending. Poor Mark. Am at a loss for words. These people are supposed to be professional and they can't juxtapose linnear story telling. This is so sad.

 

Trevorrow’s downfall came when he had to completely change the script after Carrie’s death. TLJ had nothing to do with it.

 

Luke's death was one of the first things which was set. This was said by Rian himself. So, Colin knew from the very beginning that Luke would die and thus he (supposedly) tried to convince Rian to change Luke's fate, but Rian didn't want to change it.

This. His script was probably focused heavily on Leia and her relationship to her brother and her son.

 

Where did you hear this info?
Would not be shocked if true, because Carrie's death definitely is going change Ep9.
I personally am a fan of Trovorrow more so than Abrams, but I believe Abrams will make an awesome movie. He knows these characters better than anyone (Rey,Poe,Finn,Kylo). I've heard some concerns about JJ's supposed inability to end things correctly But I feel good about him helming the final movie

 

You know I never thought about it like that. Even though Luke was a projection. The way he handled Ren was just so 'boss'. Pure class. Cool, calm collected. He operated from wisdom not emotion. And in short demonstrated that he was whole and complete. And it was Ren who was fragmented and out of control. No matter Ren's position with TFO or his yelling and screaming (reminds me of certain former super visors now that I think of it)

It wasn't so much the combat. But the fact that he demonstrated to Ren that he wasn't going to ape Ren's out of control histrionics and debase himself to behaving like a silly child.

A SW YT vlog mentioned that the 3 trilogies, across all 3 'series' involve childhood-adolescence (growing up) and adulthood. And TLJ really involves the middle stage of transition from adolescence to adulthood. None of the growth of the characters was automatic whether it be Rey, Finn, Poe, Luke or Ren. All of them had to look at their misguided (or if you will foolish ) forms of behaviour was getting them either nowhere or was hurting them (and others) and there needed to be course correction. As it should be for all of us!

 

Rather than create a new thread, I thought I'd revive this old one to continue a discussion that was started in The Book of Boba Fett. I received some negative kickback to my opine that Rian Johnson disrespected the character of Luke Skywalker in TLJ. At the time I made the comment, I wasn't trying to be controversial. I assumed most SW fans agreed with me.

When it comes to filmmaking, any writer/director can certainly do anything with a character that the Powers-the-be who are funding the project endorse. I'm not Kathleen Kennedy but how in the world can any SW fan think RJ's planned depiction of Luke Skywalker was a good idea??? It SHOULD have set off all kinds of warning signs that he was about to sabatoge a multi-billion dollar franchise. All I can say, is THANK GOD for Jon Favreau and Dave Feloni or the franchise would be in serious trouble at this point.

For generations of kids (and kids at heart) Luke Skywalker was their hero. After the announcement of Disney's ST, they awaited the introduction of an "Obi-wan-like" Luke with great anticipation. Even though he only briefly appeared in TFA, it set up an even more highly-anticipated moment: A long-lost daughter, Rey Skywalker, being reunited with her father. ....except that was evidently too 'predictable' for a writer/director of Rian Johnson's caliber.

Instead RJ portrays Luke as a disillusioned old hermit who dismisses Rey (not his daughter!!!) by casually throwing away his old lightsaber. From the film's start, legions of SW fans were not only crushed and disappointed, the scene made them literally sick to their stomachs.

Many here may not like the Marvel films but you've got to give producer, Kevin Fiege, credit: He knew how to work with multiple directors to insure a multiple film story arc stayed in place. It still boggles the mind that Lucasfilm began the highly-anticipated ST without a clear plan regarding how the three films would play out. Who does that??? Especially with a multibillion dollar franchise???

 

@Darth Derringer, you should stop to generalize what fans want or not want. There are many people who think differently. When the ST was anounnced I remember that I didn't even want the the original trio to be in the movies. I wanted the new characters to shine. But if the OT has to appear, they should have a rather minor role.

Challenging a character is considered to be good story telling. It would be really boring if characters would stay the same for 40 years. TLJ Luke was really interesting and human. I never liked the OP Luke of the old EU. I have to say I'm not the biggest fan of TLJ, but Luke and Mark Hamill's performance were great.

And he still is. Now even more than before. TLJ Luke is a good message for children. -> Facing your fear and getting stronger because of that. The ending with Luke on Crait was the most badass as Luke ever was (sorry Mando Luke).

That's something which I never understood. Why did people want Rey to be related to Luke or Han or anyone? Doesn't this shrink the galaxy? I always loved the idea of Rey Nobody. + We already had Kylo Ren being related to the OT.

I liked that scene (the humor coming with it not so much though).

That's true and really disappointing, I agree. I hope the next set of movies are planned.

 

Duly noted. To be fair, I'm a mere padawan compared to most of you. My knowledge of the SW world is likely way behind you and others here. About me: I was a huge fan of the OT -- but disliked the PT. Then I was a fan of JJ's TFA -- but hated the next 2 to the point where I crossed SW off my "still love it" list. THEN a year after it launched, my wife and I subscribed to Disney+ and I somewhat reluctantly decided to give The Mandalorian a look-see. We were blown away and looked forward to Season 2. With S2:E5 (the Ahsoka ep.), I fell DEEPLY IN LOVE with SW all over again. The rest of the season only heightened my excitement, enthusaism and love for it.

I never meant to imply I didn't expect Luke to have grown over the years. I just didn't expect him to have a full-fledged personality change. In many ways, TLJ Luke crapped all over the essense of what made the younger Luke of ROTJ so heroic to fans.

The film was PART 8 of 9 in the Skywalker Saga. One of the underlying themes of the film series was the importance of family. If this wasn't a critical theme, which TLF ignored, why was an attempt made to make Rey Palpatine into a "Skywalker" at the end? Sadly, that disingenuous attempt to rectify the mistake made in XIII turned out to be lame at best.

If you polled SW fans and asked whether or not Rey should have been revealed as Luke's daughter in the ST, I swear that the "YES!" vote would be well over 90%.

I agree!!! For what its worth, I do think the franchise has learned from its mistakes and are in good hands with Favreau and Filoni.

 

I really liked TFA as well. I was disappointed about TLJ, but TROS made me appreciate TLJ much more. I hate TROS. Haha!

I really enjoyed Mando S1, S2 was disappointing because the show shifted away from Mando and was more of a cameo run. But I get why people loved this approach.

IMO he was still the same person, but after all that he went through... His depiction made sense to me.

But we already had the family theme with Kylo Ren. It always drives me crazy that people forget that Kylo is a Skywalker.

This actually made me interested in looking up some polls, and the first three polls had these results:


Rey Nobody was always the winner. Kinda fascinating in retroperspective.

Let's just say I'm glad there are not really involved in Kenobi and Andor. It's great that they are successful for Mando and TBOBF though.

 

The show shifted away from Din? With all due respect, did we watch the same season? Din was clearly the lead player in all eight episodes of Season 2. At worst, he shared the spotlight in some episodes with the likes of Ahsoka Tano and Boba Fett. But that's somehow bad???

Cool. I'm glad it worked for you. For me, TLJ Luke was the total antithesis of the ROTJ Luke who maintained an unwavering faith -- to the point of near-death -- in the inherent goodness of his father.

The smart move would have been to move from Anakin Skywalker (PT) to Luke Skywalker (OT) to Luke's daughter, Rey Skywalker. This would have set up all kinds of possibilities for cool future stories. As it is, Lucasfilm has (wisely) ignored the future and focused on the earlier SW time lines for now.

Sorry NinjaRen, I'm not buying your polls. The first one was dated after TLJ came out and we have no dates for the other two. All the surveys I recall seeing in the years leading up to TLJ were anticipating that Rey would be revealed as Luke's daughter (which IMHO WOULD have been really cool.)

Say what you will, but I would be willing to bet that the character of Rey would be MUCH more popular today within Star Wars fandom if she'd been revealed as Luke's daughter than she is now as a Palpatine.

Here's to the two of us enjoying the new SW shows going forward!

 

I think Luke in TLJ was honest. The Jedi Order wS extremely flawed, the biggest flaw of being afraid of the sith/Darkside. They had all of these rules out of fear, they created a sith lord, in both Anakin and Dooku. They took children away from their parents and forbid them from having emotions. In the case of Anakin, he tried to go to yoda with his problems and Yoda had a vague answer. So he flipped out.
Luke had some darkness to him. He force choked the Gammorean guards, that's a sith thing. Also in Mando season 2 finalie, he force squeezed the dark troopers, which was looked at as being cruel even for droids, and was concidered a Darkside power. Luke mostly was able to keep it in check. When he sensed the Darkside in Kylo he freaked out and started to go dark himself. Then of course he stopped himself, which by then was too late, kylo reacted, and went nuts. I think Luke was afraid of the force. He cut himself off because he knew he had dark tendencies, and of course fear is a path to the Darkside, which brings us back to the Jedi order being a product of fear in and of itself. So Luke stopped it. Which I do not blame him.

 

Now I'm generalizing, but I had the feeling no one was talking about Din anymore. Bo Katan appears, everyone talks about Bo Katan. Ahsoka appears, everyone talks about Ahsoka. Luke appears, everyone talks about Luke. I couldn't care less about these characters :3

The smart move would have been to let Kylo Ren / Ben Solo survive.

The first poll was after TLJ, the second after TROS and the third after TFA.

Everything was anticipated actually. The most popular theories were:
- Rey Random
- Rey Solo (only before TFA)
- Rey Skywalker
- Rey Kenobi

Then there was the ship Reylo.

I hoped for Rey Nobody (or Kenobi) + Reylo. At least we kinda got Reylo...

She would be more popular if she had been written better.

 

Sorry I haven't had the chance to respond! I've been busy with helping a friend move and some other stuff, so I've been away from the keyboard for the weekend.

About Luke in TLJ, I'm going to try and break it down into a few parts.


Who's to blame for TLJ-Luke? I know a lot of people blame Rian Johnson for this, but it's really JJ's fault. Honestly, a lot of things people blame RJ for should really look to JJ to blame - JJ was so focused on the story of Star Wars that he didn't really focus on the world of Star Wars, and that led to him making choices that made a very nice nostalgia flick but ignored the world of Star Wars; he asked questions without thinking about the answers, leaving RJ to pick up the pieces. How does this relate to Luke? JJ was the one who sent Luke to Ach-To. JJ was the one to claim that Luke was depressed about his Jedi Temple failing. JJ was the one to kill the Luke that people had in their minds from Legends. JJ was the one to kill the myth of Luke Skywalker. Rian was the one who had to make the killing feel believable. Now, YMMV on whether or not it IS believable for you, but laying the blame of Luke running away after losing everything at RJ's feet when Han is the one who recounts the story in TFA isn't fair.


What is Luke's Role in the ST? This feels like an obvious question to answer, but it's one that I guess needs clarifying. LUKE IS NOT THE OBI-WAN ARCHETYPE MENTOR OF THE SEQUEL TRILOGY - HAN SOLO IS. Han is the one who whisks the kids on a big adventure, introduces the mystical conflict, and whose death causes the big "NO!" and fuel for the fire. Han is the old, wizened wizard, but instead of being marked by magic, he's marked by experience. Ergo, LUKE IS THE YODA OF THE TRILOGY. Luke is the mentor who doesn't really want to teach our hero (like Yoda), who doesn't really fit with our hero's preconceived conception of their legend ("a great warrior" Yoda being the trickster mentor who isn't teaching anything immediately useful to Luke, vs Luke not being the Paragon Rey and the audience thought he'd be), and who ultimately fails to fully teach their student before said student goes out into danger and ultimately fails on their quest (Luke learns a truth too soon and doesn't really save his friends - they save him (barring Han of course); Rey doesn't convince Ben to the Light Side nor does she save the Resistance by going to Starkiller Base). However, this character dies a meaningful death of revelation in their final act, and ultimately is redeemed in their next appearance as a Force Ghost (Yoda telling Luke about Leia and Vader, and then his appearance in TLJ; Luke sacrificing himself to save the new Rebellion, and his appearance in TROS). But even at the end of the day, my above paragraph isn't entirely accurate either - Luke's death mirror's Kenobi's death, and in doing so emulates the heart of the Jedi by "saving what you love," and self-sacrifice for the salvation of others. But even that goes back to Yoda, because when people think of the best Jedi, Yoda is usually a step above Obi-Wan. So by mirroring Obi-Wan's death and becoming even more of a Jedi, Luke still falls back into being the Yoda.


How Does TLJ Luke pair with OT Luke? I think, pretty well, all things considered. OT Luke was captured by stories of his family and the Jedi. His whole arc is defined by his father's reputation and identity via stories - Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi Knight. He was Luke Skywalker, Jedi and son of Anakin Skywalker. This did help facilitate one of the best plot twists in cinema history when Luke's view of his father and his trust in Yoda and Obi-Wan were shattered before the truth of Vader, so this isn't a critique, but just an observation. This is carried into ROTJ, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." This idea of who the Jedi are, who his father is, and what they do is what Luke builds his idol on. And when his idol comes crashing down at the failure of his own Jedi school. At the inability to prevent what his father had done and caused in his own school via his nephew. Luke is a man held up by stories, when his fathers didn't match the reality, he was able to rebuild and repurpose it from a failure to a redemption. But when Luke's own story failed, it recontextualized how he viewed his father's story, the Jedi's story, the story of the fate of the galaxy. Not to mention that Vader wanted to be redeemed, deep down. That is what pushed Luke forward. Ben at this time in TLJ had no such desires to be redeemed, something both he and Luke knew. That's why Luke knew that Rey would fail on her mission, because she - not unlike the audience - was trying to emulate the OT's story onto her own, when in reality they were two different things. (A sort of Convergent Evolution by narrative design in order to ultimately diverge in the end.)


Vanity, Failure, and Starting Anew. But that doesn't mean Luke was without hope, and I think this is where people sort of miss the message. Luke at the end of TFA and beginning of TLJ is going to burn down that Jedi Tree thing, and symbolically end the Jedi themselves, something that I feel is a little misunderstood with Luke's message. For most of TLJ, Luke isn't trying to convince Rey to not fight the First Order but explain why Luke himself is special or why the Jedi need to fight is a fallacy. Luke openly states that the Jedi don't own the Light Side of the Force, and that thinking so is vanity. He fully expects someone to challenge the Darkness that is the First Order. Both Luke and Snoke believe in, as Snoke puts it "Darkness rises, and Light to meet it," but Luke neither wants it to be nor believes it should be him or the Jedi. The Jedi have failed, and Luke believes they'll fail again because the system is inherently flawed. By burning down the tree, by dying as the last Jedi, Luke is giving space for something new to grow. To Luke, this is a heroic action, because he's clearing the floor for something he think will be better. Ironically, where Luke starts is where Kylo ends, with wanting to burn down a system for a new one to rise in its place. But the movie treats this as the coward's way out, since it's not addressing the problems that caused the old system. what Yoda comes back to teach Luke in one final lesson is that the Jedi isn't something static or defined by rigid dogma as it was in the past.* It's not defined by the greatness either, as Luke once believed, but by Good Actions, ones that inspire the goodness in others and help others. By doing this, the problems that caused the Jedi to fail should be rooted out, and they can be reborn again. Once Luke understands this and let's go of his view of the Jedi, he is able to fully help Rey and the Resistance.


Luke's Darker Impulses. One of the major controversies with Luke is his "attack" on Ben Solo the night the temple failed. I have two problems with this. First is the telling of the story. RJ notes that the third version of the story, where Luke did light up his lightsaber but never attacked is the most accurate. This means that Luke NEVER ATTACKED BEN. (Now, Ben isn't wrong to have seen this as an attack and reacted the way he did, but he's not innocent in any stretch of the word either by the end of things.) Second is the reaction that this doesn't fit into Luke's character, when it absolutely does. Or rather, let me rephrase, this absolutely fits into Luke's MOVIE character, but it may not fit into Luke's Legends character, which people were basing TLJ Luke off of. In the OT, Luke is at times many things, but prone to aggression when the threat of loss takes place is one that stands out the most to me. In TFA, when Obi-Wan dies, Luke immediately starts shooting the Stormtroopers nearby (not without good reason, but still). In ESB, Luke is constantly annoyed with Yoda, and rushes into a trap because he's afraid he'll lose his friends. In ROTJ, Luke outright mauls Vader when his father suggests tempted Leia to the Dark Side if Luke doesn't join. In that anger fueled moment, Luke nearly becomes his father. It's those moments of anger, usually born out of a fear of what will be lost, Luke's instincts go into overdrive and he attacks. ROTJ is no different. Luke had seen the darkness in Ben's mind and drew his weapon by sheer instinct to strike down that Darkness, as he had done before and nearly did with Vader. But the moment passed - as it did with Vader - but this time the results were reversed. Instead of Vader coming to the Light and costing Palpatine everything, Ben went fully to the Dark and cost Luke everything. It's like poetry, it rhymes.


The Rey Skywalker Dilemma. I was a fan of Rey Skwyalker too, but one has to admit that the question of her birth and abandonment raise more questions than answers, and ultimately led to an implication that he was no better a father than Vader. But the core question would have been why? Why would Luke have abandoned his daughter? Why would he let her live the life of a junk trader, or live on a planet away from community? One could blame the timeline for this problem - maybe Luke WAS planned on being Rey's father. Maybe Kylo was the one to abandon her on Jakku. But I don't think these are changes that RJ had a hand in making. We knew very soon after TFA the timeline of things, and it didn't add up. (Although I agree it would have been better if it did add up.) But ultimately, I think Rey not being a Skywalker (as much as I wanted it), a Solo (as easy as it was to write), or a Kenobi (as thematically powerful as it would have been) was the right choice. Rey being a nobody reinforced something that the PT brought in that JJ, in his love for the OT, really sort of left out - that anyone can be a Jedi. It's not not the fact that Luke is the son of Vader that makes him special to the world, it's the fact that he's a Jedi, a hope-bringer and light against the darkness, that makes him special. Tying things back to legacy and bloodline in many ways reduces the characters' choices and options, because everything is now in relation to that bloodline. This limitation can be liberating, if done well - look at how free Kylo was as a villain after taking over the First Order. He had achieved what his grandfather never did and was ultimately freed as a character because of it! But Rey Skywalker is stuck in a routine story and one that limits the Jedi - she must either convince her father to join the fight, or pick up his sword in his stead, becoming Rey, the Daughter of Luke Skywalker instead of Rey, the Jedi.
Either way, I understand the pain and disappointment, and was in the same place to an extent. But at the end of the day, we have to ask ourselves, are we mad because the story is bad or because our expectations were unmet? The answer can also be somewhere in-between - and in most cases I assume it is - but we must realize that being annoyed at something that doesn't live up to our assumptions and unfair expectations isn't a fair criticism to lobby.


A Tale of Two Lukes. TLJ's Luke isn't Legends Luke, or rather, he's not entirely Legends Luke. Yes, they both rebuilt the Jedi Order and suffered great loss at the hands of their nephews. Legends Luke lost his wife, but still had a son, niece, sister, and students to keep him fighting. TLJ Luke had none of that left - he had no community, no family he could go to without shame, and no future Jedi to help him out of his slump. He lost it all in a way Legends Luke didn't. BUT! TLJ Luke also rose out of it in a way that I've never seen Legends Luke do. At the end of the day, I don't think one overwrites the other, as to me the two are separate characters altogether; but I understand people's feelings when they feel as if it does.


What would George Lucas have done? George is a revisionist, meaning that unless it happens - and even after it happens - plans are ALWAYS in flux. We know from Pablo Hidalgo that George had a plan for Luke to be something of a hermit in his ideas for a sequel trilogy, would ultimately be brought out of retirement by a young woman with Force Powers, and would ultimately die. But beyond that, George has had a lot of ideas about the ST, and I'm not sure how many can fully be trusted.

George Lucas's Star Wars Sequel Trilogy Treatments Also Had Luke Skywalker Dying in Episode VIII - Star Wars News Net
Star Wars: Everything We Know About George Lucas' Abandoned Sequel Trilogy - IGN

This is all I have time to write about at the moment, but I hope it helps!


*As an aside, I've always read that "Sacred Jedi Text" aspect to be a meta-commentary on canon and gate-keeping. Luke represented the hardcore Legends fans who claimed Star Wars HAD to be a certain way or you HAVE to have read/liked/known XYZ thing to be a "true fan." Rey represented those who wanted to get into Star Wars, but were turned off by this behavior. Yoda (both as himself and as a speaker for good) comes in a says that it doesn't matter - the old canon was far from perfect, and tearing it down may allow something even better to grow, so long as we learn from what didn't work then.

 

First off, thank you for taking the time to present your POV in such detail. Much appreciated. Second, You've presented A LOT of good stuff to 'chew on' so pardon me if I respond to your comments little bits at a time.

There were A LOT of different ways that RJ could have taken what JJ laid out and ran with it in ST:Film 2 in a way that would have excited old and new SW fans. (Oops...time for a rant break)

**By the way, WHY IN THE HELL WASN'T THE ENTIRE TRILOGY ARC LAID OUT WELL IN ADVANCE OF TFA COMING OUT???** What studio executive in her/his right mind says, 'hey, let's put together each film IN A TRILOGY as we go along based on the individual whims of each writer/director???

(Okay...deep breath, rant over) This leads me to one of your other takes:

I think it would have been incredibly cool to have started the film with a father-daughter reunion when Luke learns -- for the first time that he HAD a daughter. (Nope, Luke is no deadbeat dad.)

I'm sure the creative team could have come up with a logical reason Rey's mother disappeared from the scene before the birth of Rey and why she was so desperate that she left her small daughter on a lonely desert planet (for her safety.) Again there are many ways Johnson could have done this, including a prequel-like segment (like the start of the Star Trek reboot featuring Kirk's father.)

It would have been easy for the audience to buy it because they WANT to buy it. It's also not a stretch for the audience to understand the HUGE psychological impact his force-sensitive daughter would have on him. It renews his old "ROTJ" mojo (while reinforcing the series' thematic emphasis on family).

I'm no screenwriter but it strikes me that playing off of this scenario would have gotten SW fans VERY excited about how the sequel trilogy was playing out. 'nuff said for right now.

 

You're very welcome, and take your time!

I agree here, but also weirdly disagree (not in the standard sense, however). I do agree that there were a lot of different ways that Episode 8 could have gone. RJ could have taken it a few different ways, a different director may have done something else entirely, etc. But looking back, I do think that RJ created a film that did excite old and new fans alike. Post-TLJ, the Star Wars world was free from repeating the OT or PT stories. I could have been a tragedy, a triumph, or something in-between. At the time I certainly didn't feel this way, since I felt sort of burnt out and super confused by the end of my first viewing. Looking back, however, I understand what RJ was trying to do and I respect his choices and philosophies (even if I don't always agree).

I 100% agree with this, and my comments below are going to try and understand why it wasn't. Again, I AGREE WITH YOU, but I also want to understand the other side, if only to prevent it from happening again.

1. Money - Disney invested a LOT of money in buying Lucasfilm, and they wanted their investment back. Movies sell merch and toys and create stories and characters that sell merch and toys, so movies need to be lined up. Heck, Episode 7 was supposed to come out in MAY 2015, and Lucasfilm had to fight for it to be pushed back to December, so it's not as if they didn't want more time for things.

2. Management - This isn't a dig on KK in any way, but she has a particular way of running things that's different to other comparative companies and franchises. Kathleen likes to make products that are interesting for the creators and excite them, not necessarily the consumers. (The consumers get the fan-service stuff.) For the ST, this meant a round-robin production for the most part, where three different teams each work on the movie separately without too much oversight and make something special out of it. This would allow the directors to leave their mark on the movies and the franchise without ruining the story because they'd know it all. That didn't mean that there wasn't ANY collaboration - RJ got TFA's dailies and JJ talked about how they'd change little things for each other, like R2 going to Ach-To instead of BB-8, or how RJ focused on Han's dice at the end of TLJ at the request of Lord and Miller IIRC.

3. Movers and Shakers - Kathleen and Lucasfilm (and all of Hollywood, really) were looking for the next young, trendy director to be their company's Golden Goose - they were all looking for the next Christopher Nolan. You can see this in the directors Kathleen chose for projects:
Rian Johnson was chosen fresh off of Looper (a critical darling*) and his Breaking Bad episodes (considered to be some of the best of the show, and some of the best episodes ever created)
Gareth Edwards was coming hot off of Godzilla and had a critical darling before in Monsters
Josh Trank was loved for Chronicled and had excited fans with his next project, a Fantastic Four reboot
Colin Trevorrow had just finished directing a BILLION dollar movie in Jurassic World and was something of a mentee to Kathleen IIRC.
Lord and Miller had done Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, 21 Jump Street, 22 Jump Street, and The Lego Movie, showing off their versatility and genre prowess.
(JJ was actually a second-pick IIRC, and was a solid choice for the first film due to him breathing life into franchises before, such as the Mission Impossible franchise and Star Trek. He was also a friend and mentee of Kathleen and Spielberg beforehand.)

Because of this mindset, Kathleen and Lucasfilm were in a way "chasing a high" instead of planting seeds, and as such very little went as planned
nothing went as planned.
Gareth's movie was a mess of scenes his editors had to come in and fix; Josh was fired before Fan4stic aired due to controversy and the poor state of the film; Colin couldn't make Episode 9's script work after Carrie's passing, and The Book of Henry soured people on him for Episode 9; and Lord and Miller were more comedic and lax than KK and Kasdan's wanted, and it caused major reshoots that Ron Howard had to step in and direct. Hilariously, Rian's film was the only film that was on budget, ahead of schedule, and had minimal leaks. (This is probably one of the reasons why Lucasfilm wanted him to step in to direct Episode 9 after Colin left.)

Lucasfilm has been working from a "directors for clout, and then story" perspective instead of from a "we have a story idea, let's find a director who can bring that to life" like Zack Snyder's DCEU or the MCU work(ed). (To their credit, Rogue One and Solo were planned in the second fashion - people came to Kathleen with the idea, and then she put together a team to make the movie. The problem was with the people she chose - young and trendy directors.)
The MCU in particular is a weird one, but it's also run differently. Again, Kathleen likes to give the directors a LOT of freedom to do their thing, and only steps in if things aren't looking well or if things are impeding on something else. Kevin Fiege aka the MCU Mastermind plays a more proactive part in MCU films, from looking over who is directing what project (and making some weird but almost always perfect choices about this*) to what the scripts look like, to making sure that directors on different projects collaborate when they need to. James Gunn was on the set of Infinity War talking to the Russo Bros about Star Lord's character. Ryan Coogler knew the Russo Bros and other directors because they were making sure their stories lined up. That didn't mean everyone knew everything about everyone else's movie, but the connected pieces knew enough.
But that goes back to the idea of having a plan, or at least a solid outline of what's coming next.

Nowadays, Lucasfilm is actually planning things out - their High Republic reveal talked about this, and the time they're taking on most projects hints towards this as well.**

I don't disagree! But I do think that changes the dynamic of things. Is Luke now suddenly revitalized for his mission now that he has a long-lost daughter? Who is the mother? How will Rey feel about her father never knowing she even existed? How does this work into the overall theme of the movie? If Luke wants Rey to not become a Jedi, does that cover the same narrative ground as Finn not wanting Rey to come back to a destroyed Resistance? Or are there too many people wanting to push her away from her goals to make the audience want her to achieve her goals? I'm sure these questions and even more were considered.

And then what? Luke goes with his daughter to save the Resistance, cutting short if not entirely invalidating Poe and Finn's arcs? Or they go to Snoke and Kylo, and have a Master/Mentor Two v Two battle? I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that here, and I apologize if I sound that way. The story has to come first, however. It doesn't matter how thematically beautiful something is, or how fan-service-y cool something is if the story it's pined to doesn't work. (Which is ironic coming from me as I can see the themes in TLJ and Luke and am trying to relay them to you, but it doesn't fully work because the story doesn't work for you. I can picture Palpatine's smug face right about now...)

Again, I'm not saying I didn't or even don't want this, but sometimes the easy solution isn't the right one, and I'm just not convinced the story would have worked if we got Rey Skywalker. All I can see is either Luke trying to hold his daughter back from going into danger and then scaring her away, and dying to redeem that line, or Rey shaming Luke's current lifestyle, and Luke then dying in a blaze of glory to show that he's "still got it," which would undermine the entire selfless nature of his canonical death. These of course aren't the only options, but the only outcomes I can see. But even then, changes like this ripple out, so you've got to change Finn and Poe's arc to make sure everything lines up.

Possibly, but I find it hard to fully believe. I think it'd work like a sugar high, or like how TROS worked for me originally - good in the moment, but quickly crashed and burned once the moment is over. Rey is Kylo's cousin, now what? We have a cousin vs cousin fight? Or will it be the Skywalker/Solo Clan vs Snoke? Do all Jedi have to be related to the Skywalker/Solo clan to be of any importance anymore?

Anyways, that's enough for me too right now. Again, I'm not trying to be rude or mean or demeaning or anything of the sort. I'm trying to push the idea beyond it being just simple wish fulfillment and fantasy. It's like when you're a kid (or have a kid) and want a pet - you're thinking about the cool animal that you can pet and walk and snuggle with and show off to your friends. But what about the reality of training the animal, or cleaning it and cleaning up after it, or vet expenses, or logistics when you go on trips, or how to handle its death (or how to handle it in the case it lives after the owner like if it's a parrot or a turtle). There's more to the ideas than just "wouldn't it be cool if...?" and that's what screenwriters have to consider. Some changes don't really ripple in the same way, and are just cool changes and fanservice that could be/could have been easily implemented, but other things, like Rey's heritage, come with a lot of implications and ramifications. So yeah, again, even if I don't agree with RJ's choice for Rey's heritage, I do think it was one of the better decisions.


*Like, seriously. He took the Russo Brothers, who had never directed an action film and were mostly known for Community (which was admittedly a breeding ground for talent) and gave them Captain America 2. They then completely revolutionized the character and went on to direct two of the highest grossing films in HISTORY. Fiege has a very good eye for matching people with projects, and he does it well.
**It's not like they didn't plan things out before with some hints, but it was a lot more subtle.

 

Because of my upbringing and particular background, I’ve always interpreted the ‘dark side’ as a metaphor for addiction. I know that’s not specifically what George was speaking to, but that’s how it’s always made sense to me. It’s this thing that first empowers you and amplifies you and deceptively gives you the illusion that you have some degree of control over it. But ultimately it’s nothing but a trap. Whatever it gives you, it takes so much more in exchange, leaving you hollow and alienated from the people around you. It strands you in a pit of despair that you become convinced is inescapable. “It is too late for me, son.”

Like me, Luke is the son of an addict. His father’s addiction turned him into a monster and threatened to do the same to his son. In his young adulthood, Luke had a brush with the demon that had consumed his father and was able to reject its thrall. But that didn’t magically make him immune to it. It’s something he would have to struggle with for the rest of his life.

Luke Skywalker then is a person in recovery and has been for 30 years. The premise of TLJ Luke is that he relapsed. He’d grown too casual and comfortable with his vice, had a moment of weakness, gave in to his darker impulses, and it had a catastrophic effect on someone he cares about. His understandable reaction to that is one of self-loathing. He no longer trusts himself to be a defender of virtue and so removes himself from the possibility of ever making that same mistake again, convinced that everyone would be better off without him.

He wrongfully believes that his response is in everyone’s best interest and consequently places himself in a similar pit of despair that his father was once trapped in. His journey in the film is one of redemption - a ‘return of the Jedi’. Like father like son.

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion on what this fictional character means to them. I can honestly say his depiction in TLJ is entirely in line with my concept of what a “hero” is.

 

I disagree but nevertheless, that was very well-said.

I think I could have bought 'the journey of remdemption' you experienced for Luke if the catylist has been the sudden appearance of a force-sensitive daughter he never knew he had.

 

Fair enough. I think it works better as a combination of influences. An eager, but entirely unprepared, girl that reminds him of his own youthful optimism and impetuousness. The recognition of a very real, and not theoretical, threat approaching his sister. A literal bonk on the head from his respected mentor, basically saying “snap out of it”. A necessary confrontation with the person who represents his greatest regret, but isn’t at all expressed in violence.

His turn in the final act is an earned slow-burn transformation that comes from multiple avenues that don’t rely on base soap-operatic sentimentality alone. I genuinely appreciate that. When I think about ‘daddy Luke’, I legitimately don’t see how that’s any better than what we got. But that’s me. I’m pretty unimaginative

 

Thanks. When it comes to posting, I tend to keep my posts short so addressing your various points means you'll need to be VERY patient with me -- 'cause I'm also slow.

I actually think Rian Johnson can be a good filmmaker. I thought his 'Knives Out' film was outstanding. But I will always believe that when it came to TLJ, he didn't fully consider the long-term consequences of his decisions to the Star Wars franchise he was directing. The reality of the situation was that RJ seemed to ignore the fact that his film was Part 2 of a Trilogy and behaved like it was a stand-alone. To be fair to him, Kathleen Kennedy and her team sure didn't help matters. Lucasfilm was basking in the glow of the financial success of TFA and apparently thought they could do no wrong. How ANY Lucasfilm executive could have thought TLJ's depiction of Luke and the 'Rey is not a Skywalker' storyline was a good idea is absolutely mindboggling to me!!!

Sorry, you're timeline doesn't fit. Colin left Episode IV months before Carrie's passing. I heard that the real reason he left was because his script included Luke Skywalker -- who Lucasfilm allowed to be killed off in Rian's movie. Colin argued with KK for the appearance of at least a Luke Skywalker 'force ghost' to salvage his Ep. 9 script but that was a no-go --- which, led to their "creative differences" parting of the ways.

This once again illustrates just how crazy it was for Lucasfilm to allow one director to diviate so dramatically from the 'general' framework the trilogy was working under. For the record, the outline the trilogy writers had been working under didn't have either Luke or Snoke dying in Ep. VIII.

After RJ's episode, JJ was brought back in to attempt to pull together all the crazy pieces that RJ had left dangling into some kind of satisfying conclusion. But (IMHO) Episode IV stunk. But I don't blame JJ given the mess he was left to work with.

I'm kind of a 'one trick pony' guy when it comes to posting so I'll leave it here (for now.) Take care.

 

That's not true. The script of EPIX actually leaked some time ago and in this script Luke has a small but significant role as force ghost. He's haunting Kylo Ren and is training Rey. Colin used everything Rian set up in TLJ.

The death of Carrie Fisher was a reason for his departure, but there was also the failure of his previous movie.