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OPINION: What Lucasfilm Got Wrong About Fandom

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Jaxxon, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Dont understand. George didnt consider EU canon so it couldnt break his storylines. Really expect that after TROS is released you will get announcements of books and other projects that fill in the gaps between ROTJ and TFA for key characters.
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I meant he was pretty open about spoilers. He had a lot of spoiler-ish footage leading up the releases of the PT.

    But that's the point. We only get them AFTER the ST is finished. The story is done then and I'm not interested anymore in something what's already finished. I want an EU which supports the movies and not an EU which is filling the gaps after they have been noticed by the makers.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    There were spoilers in the PT?
    I mean Anakin becomes Vader. Palpatine is Sidious.
    You knew most of the other characters probably died since they weren't in the OT....
     
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  4. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    I like how LFL treated the EU. By "deligating" it to a legendary status, they created a mythos of what people in the Star Wars universe might tell each other and believe to have happened. And while all of it might have curdles of truth to it (i.e. LFL can mine & reuse the EU for what makes the best stories in the "new" canon) the current stories are not beholden to the vast amount of games and novels and comics and whathaveyou that made up the old EU (much of which was of very questionable quality, if you ask me... and much better left discarded).

    This is quite clever and a very sensible way to go forward.

    So, instead of LFL going through everything belonging to the old EU and deciding that, "this book is canon, except for such and such scenes and this character, while this book is not canon, except for this technology" or whatever, we now have a situation where the Legends material exists in-story and is available to be (re-)included into canon in a sensible and well-reflected manner, at a sane and managable pace, rather than the storytellers having to try and wringe new tales out of a million-pages-long, all-encompassing EU story bible.

    So, go ahead and read... Dark Empire, or whatever. It is still just as valid as before; a great piece of SciFi drama, and it represents a tale that some culture out there tells one another happened post RotJ. And who knows (looking at RoS), perhaps some of it is even true?
     
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  5. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    First off, Lucasfilm, Disney, JJ, Rian, etc. have never “blamed” the fans for anything. I don’t know where this false notion came from, but with how easy it is for misinformation to spread these days, I don’t blame people for believing stuff like this to be true.

    Second off, the story group at Lucasfilm decided to wipe the slate clean when George was working on his version of the ST either just before, during, or just after the Disney acquisition. Had he had his version of the Sequels made, George would have ignored the EU too (just like he did when working on The Clone Wars 2008 series), so regardless of who made these movies, they would be contradicting the old books and comics.

    IMO, wiping the slate clean and making a clear distinction between the old Expanded Universe and the new canonical books and comics we have today was inevitable and the best solution. And as long as they make a clear distinction on what takes place in which universe, I still think that they could have content coming out from both universes at the same time.

    Lastly, Star Wars and the MCU are two very different things. The MCU movies and the Marvel comics were never a part of the same universe, as the movies are usually (loose) adaptations of the comics featuring different versions of the same characters, while the Star Wars books and comics were always part of the same universe as the films and used the same versions of the same characters. This gives the two franchises their own separate identities and this is also why some Star Wars fans get so up in arms whenever Lucasfilm comes out with something they don’t like: there is multiple different versions of the Marvel characters they can choose from but only two universes for Star Wars (and one of them is defunct now.)

    Despite that, I don’t want new creators to feel beholden to what came before, both in terms of the films and the material outside the films. This is why I don’t believe applying the MCU/superhero formula to Star Wars movies would work, or at the least, why I wouldn’t want to see it happen.

    When it comes to Star Wars, I personally want to see new stories on the big screen, not movies that take a bunch of ideas from the old continuity. (Though Lucasfilm has used plenty of ideas from Legends in the new books, comics, shows, and, yes, the movies.)

    In short, no, I don’t think wiping the slate clean and making the new films the way they want to was a bad move. I also am glad that the movies aren’t using all of the same ideas and characters from Legends and have their own different flavor to what came before (though the ST can be a bit derivative of the OT sometimes.) I agree with parts of what @Jaxxon has said, but I think that instead of handling the movies and shows the MCU way, they should have handled the books and comics the Marvel way: where they have multiple stories coming from more than one universe,

    What I do feel was a misguided move by Lucasfilm was not continuing, or, at the least, finishing the storylines from Legends separately from the current canon stuff, which is what @Jaxxon was getting at in his post. All they would have to do is clearly denote the books and comics as “Legends” and “Canon” or whatever people would prefer for them to be called.

    I also believe that the LFL Story Group was not expecting people to be as passionate about the old Expanded Universe as they were. And I don’t blame them. As someone who has read very little of Legends, I know that I’ve been surprised that people are still hardcore fans of it and I commend them for that. The good thing is that those stories will always exist and can alway be enjoyed, and fortunately, there is quite a lot of content to enjoy in that universe. :)
     
    #25 The Hero With No Fear, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  6. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    EU by its very nature is a another universe. Is not canon so doesnt effect the films. As for books that are canon it is impossible for them to not effect the films unless it is totally unrelated story with really just supporting or new characters. You are just asking for the books to lead the movies and most people wont read the books.
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I'm asking for an EU (which means EXPANDED Universe and not another universe) which enhances the movie experience. For example: people are begging for more information about Luke, Ben and Snoke. They go through every single media, just to look for small titbits or hints. Of course these people are disappointed then.

    Then why bother making books at all? That's my point. The current EU canon is useless IMO.

    Yes, there were spoilers. There is more than story spoilers, you can also spoil visuals and stuff like that.

    Well, and that's it. Everything else was a blank sheet.
     
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  8. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    You have what you want then. We call them books. Specifically the new books. You dont put out books that tell stories about Luke, Ben, Snoke, etc. that give away where the movies are going. Or should say you dont put out many. During the OT timeframe I believe the only book that came out was Splinter of a Minds Eye. During the PT it was just like this timeframe. A few very controlled books and other media. Yet we also knew the general structure of the characters arc's. We have had books that have provided information about many characters involved in the ST. Some core characters events have not been written about yet. Key word is yet. Only disappointed if you want surprise and mystery taken away.

    There have been some very good books that lead up to the films and since TROS doesnt continue directly from TLJ we have multiple books that will come out before TROS releases. If you want the story spoiled thats OK, but really if any size able amount of people dont want things spoiled you just have to wait.
     
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  9. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

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    This is the main point where we agree, and it's really the crux of my argument.

    I think the EU had a way bigger following than LFL anticipated. But even more importantly, I think it infiltrated fandom on a deeper level than they expected.

    Take Luke's character arc in The Last Jedi. In my opinion, it makes total sense in light of the films. We only saw Luke as a heroic Jedi for one movie (RotJ), and even then he nearly killed Palpatine out of anger.

    And yet, so many fans just couldn't handle the darker Luke of TLJ. I really believe that, in large part, this is because fandom truly absorbed the image of Jedi Master Luke from the EU. A Luke who becomes a nearly flawless, Dumbledore-esque figure.
     
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  10. bferr1972

    bferr1972 Rebel General

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    Chewbacca might have been one of the main reasons Disney/Lucasfilm decanonized the EU. They apparently wanted to be able to use him in the ST, but he had been killed off in one of the books.

    Source
     
    #30 bferr1972, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Also in perhaps the most beloved of the EU books the Thrawn trilogy they made it so force ghosts had only a short time frame to contact living people. Early on in the 1st book Obi-Wan informs Luke soon he wont be able to contact him any longer.
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I totally get that frustration, but I think we're almost certainly going to get stuff like that in the years following TROS.

    The sequel era is still shrouded in mystery, but I'm sure it'll be fleshed out once the movies wrap.
     
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  13. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I agree they made a huge mistake by throwing out the EU (since there were levels of "cannon" in the old system when George still owned LFL, why not just simply add another level to the system, call it D-cannon)

    As far as Luke is concerned, I'll preface my next comment(s) with this: I was never a huge Luke fan. Yeah, after seeing Star Wars I was (I was 7 so of course I loved Luke). But after Empire Strikes Back I became team Empire. LOL Okay, so when it comes to "grumpy" Luke or whatever, I didn't think it made sense, based on what we were told. But this isn't the thread for that.

    I remember one of my students, when Disney announced they were going to jettison the EU, was really upset. He was like "why did I read all of those books if they were just gonna throw them out?" My response was "because you enjoyed them." But people took it personally. I think you are right, then underestimated the depth of love for it by those hard core fans who enjoyed those books.
     
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  14. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Rebel Official

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    All the old EU exists... it’s just not in the same canon universe as the new EU.

    Parts of the old EU meant something to me for sure, but I think they made the right decision by resetting it when starting the sequel trilogy. I think they had to really, to free themselves creatively. I’ve read a decent amount of the new EU and I have to say the standard is generally quite high IMHO. It has enriched my enjoyment of the new films. There’s almost too many to keep up with, and I hope to fill in the gaps and revisit a few after TRoS.

    I’ve enjoyed many of them as audiobooks but unfortunately they’re not all available in the UK, so if they have got anything wrong with fandom from my perspective I think they have unfortunately continued an unnecessary tradition of treating different countries with less respect than ‘domestic’ fans at times.

    Anyway, in terms of the old EU, one can still enjoy it I think, and just imagine it’s an alternative/parallel universe, or a different account of a lost history...
     
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  15. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Of course one can still enjoy it. But by taking it out and no longer publishing anything in that "level of cannon" for lack of a better term, they made enemies out of some hard core fans. Like what was the point of that? Back in those days there were levels of cannon. Just make a "D-level" and publish your new material in that level. Then continue to publish stuff in the old EU. That would make everyone happy, or at least most fans happy. The stated reason was contradictions in the old EU and the fact that Chewie was dead in the EU. Easily solved. All they had to do was continue to have the films as the top level of cannon. As for contradictions, they already had Chuck Wendig screw the timeline up, so there goes that. :(
     
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  16. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Rebel Official

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    I think the point was they wanted as consistent a universe as possible and a unified canon that supported the films on a more equal footing.

    I personally think it makes sense for a bunch of reasons. Firstly there isn’t one single creative vision behind the whole thing anymore who one can say ‘THAT is the guy who says what goes’ in terms of story. When George was in charge he could (and did) essentially ignore the EU when he felt like it. I think when you have a story group, various directors and writers, and a view to creating a more varied and numerous line-up of on-screen material, trying to navigate the old EU at the same time would have been impossible.

    The whole ‘levels’ of canon thing was fine, but it’s kind of what still exists, in a simplified form. I will concede they made a rod for their own back a little by not emphasising more that the ‘legends’ category can be seen as another level of canon rather than simply ‘not canon at all’. Many of the truths we cling to... yada yada... ;) But I think they were going for a clean, unambiguous break/reset.

    I think it’s a shame if people feel dismissed or that they have wasted time and energy on the old EU, but whilst I can understand that a little I think it is to some degree a choice of perception that lies with the reader as much as the content creators (both old and new).

    Zahn’s original Heir to the Empire/Thrawn Trilogy books especially were very important to me as I might expound upon some other time, and I still count Luceno’s Darth Plagueis as one of my favourite Star Wars books regardless of canon status. But whether one regards canon as in ‘legit’ levels or a binary ‘yay or nay’ status is a power we all actually have. I hesitate to say it’s just semantics, because I understand the strength of feeling from some on the subject, but I do think if people feel they were made an ‘enemy’ of Lucasfilm by the reset it is in their power to define in their own minds how they choose to perceive things and they’d likely be happier by adjusting their point of view in response rather than railing against something that probably isn’t going to change.

    Finally, I’m not sure exactly of the contradictions you refer to, but there will be contradictions with in-going new Star Wars content being made, I think Lucasfilm were just trying to minimise them as much as possible. I think they’ve done an amazing job in that regard so far.
     
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  17. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Personally, and this is just my opinion, I have no evidence to support it, they simply wiped away the old EU to sell more stuff. Which is cool. I realize Disney isn't a charity, and they need to make that money back. But as you rightly pointed out, they created a rod for their own back. All they had to do is say there would be two product lines: EU and Disney cannon. Heck I'd say they could make money by continuing to publish stories in the "Legends" product line, as there are plenty of fans who love those stories. I wasn't one who was upset with them for what they did, but I know plenty of fans who were/are. It just seems like they didn't think that through.

    I loved Heir to the Empire and yes, Luceno's book is just fantastic. Easily my favorite Star Wars book ever.

    Chuck's Vader comic supposedly had big time continuity errors. I don't keep up with the comics as they are just putting out WAY WAY WAY too much product for me to even attempt to keep up, so I can't say exactly what the continuity contradictions were. I can say I wasn't impressed with his first book in the Aftermath series so this doesn't surprise me. That book felt slapped together and while the series did get better, that first one is just bad. The problem with this is, of course, one of the justifications for ending the EU and labelling it "legends" was to keep a "consistent universe" as you noted, only to then allow Chuck to do whatever he wanted.

    In the end, this is indicative of what I think they got wrong about the fandom, and continue to get wrong. The Star Wars fandom isn't stupid, and they pay attention to what they are being told. We were told LFL under Disney wanted to do an MCU in that they wanted the films/books/comics/etc. to all tie in and they wanted consistency. But then they allow Chuck Wendig (amongst others) to disregard cannon and the material that came before and simply do what he wanted. They said they'd have a "story group" to prevent this but then that very story group does what exactly?

    I'm not bashing the New E.U. (NEU) as some of the stuff is fantastic. I loved the Rogue One prequel! Which makes me wonder why they gave Chuck Wendig a Vader comic after Aftermath but haven't brought James Luceno back? If there is any author I'd not have brought back, it is Chuck, and if there is any author I'd be looking to give more work to, it has to be James Luceno (and of course Timothy Zahn). I also loved Claudia Grey's Bloodline and enjoyed her book on ObiWan and Qui Gonn (although I really didn't like the other Jedi in there).

    Anyway, sorry for the rambling rant. :)
     
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  18. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Rebel Official

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    Nothing to apologise for, it’s all good. :)

    I agree with some of what you say. I have bought some of the recent comics but I struggle to keep up with all them as well as the novels too. I haven’t read the Vader one you refer to yet, so that makes sense! I have mixed feelings on the Aftermath series too.

    Luceno’s Tarkin is canon too of course, and well worth it if you haven’t read it and you liked Darth Plagueis and Catylast.

    Agreed on Bloodline as well, it was fantastic. I keep starting Grey’s Lost Stars, as a lot of people seem to love that, but then I get distracted and have to re-start... this is why I like audiobooks, I get through them quicker that way, and Lost Stars is one of the ones that is inexplicably unavailable in the UK unfortunately.

    It remains to be seen of course, but given the apparent presence of the Death Star II and Vader/Palpatine stuff in EpIX, hopefully we could get another Luceno novel that wraps some stuff up after TRoS... maybe something set between VIII and XI could work.
     
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  19. Darth Wardawg

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    YES!!!! The Tarkin book is really good. I totally loved that. I also tend to listen to books on audio, and really enjoyed that one. Some I will read (I read the Obi-Wan Qui Gonn Jinn book). I might have to try Lost Stars on audio as I've not been able to get into the physical one. Bloodline was very good. Definitely one of my favorites.
     
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  20. bferr1972

    bferr1972 Rebel General

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    ^ Ditto on Bloodline.
     
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