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Palpatine's ever changing plan

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Darth Chewie, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel General

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    I have seen in a few threads people complaining or being confused by Palpy's plan in TROS.

    In the beginning he greets Kylo as if he was expected and offers him the fleet and an Empire if he simply kills Rey. In fact he asks him to do this twice if my memory serve me correct.

    Kylo comes very close, as we see Rey completely over come by Kylo's power during their duel on the Death Star wreckage. It is only Leia's interference through the force that Ren become distracted long enough for Rey to save herself and strike him down. Rey then saves his life, leaves and we see the final transformation of Kylo coming back to become Ben Solo thanks to the memory of his father. (Was the most touching and heartfelt scene in the movie IMO.)

    Palpy, talking to Pryde insist that Leia has interrupted is plans, and orders Pryde to destroy a planet meaningful enough to lure Rey and the Resistance to Exogol.

    Once Rey arrives there with some encouragement from Master Luke, she is informed by Palpy that he never wanted her dead, but brought here for her to take her place on the Sith Throne. Now this adds up to what D-O told Finn and about Palpy wanting 'child Rey' brought to him many years before, but that may have been because at the time, she was a young innocent non-threatening child that he could raise and manipulate to his will. Now however, she is a nearly full fledged Jedi with immense power that is a major threat to him and would be much harder to convert at this point, which makes sense why he simply ordered her to be killed at the beginning of the movie.

    So what changed? Did he really want her dead? What if Kylo had succeeded and struck her down on the Endor planet? Did he originally plan to have Kylo rule in his place, or was he going to murder him, and take his force energy to revive himself? Or was he going to insist that Ren strike him down as he wanted Rey to do, so he could pass his force energy to him and rule through Ren? Obviously Palpy was hoping to avoid having to deal with them both at the same time, as that was a lesson he learned with Anikan and Luke.

    While I don't find this drastic change of plans to be a negative for the film as Palps was always a liar and manipulator, but the way it was revealed as a plot twist, it's a bit confusing upon reflection as it just wasn't clear what his #1 plan actually was. Maybe that was the point??

    What are everyone's thoughts on the matter as this was arguably the central plot point to the entire film.
     
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  2. Mbruno

    Mbruno Rebelscum

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    I suppose Palpatine’s real plan was for Rey to kill Ben , which would draw her even closer to the dark side. He also needed Ben to tell her about her parents’ death to stir up her anger, which was necessary for the Sith sacrifice to succeed.

    I am convinced that Palpatine never intended that Kylo Ren would be the new emperor. He was merely using him .
     
    #2 Mbruno, Dec 30, 2019
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  3. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I really enjoyed TROS but I still have no idea what Palpatine’s plan was after 2 viewings? The ending (when Rey confronts Palpatine) is the only part that I feel the movie loses its luster. I think on subsequent viewings at home when it comes to Blu-ray, I will be able to answer this question better.
     
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  4. Mbruno

    Mbruno Rebelscum

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    The novelization might also give further insight.
     
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  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    Palpatine is a master of "thinking on the fly" and adjusting his machinations in an instant.

    He did it in TPM with Padme escaping Naboo and coming to speak with the Senate in person, he did it in AotC with convincing Jar-Jar to spark an Emergency Powers vote, and he did it in the Sequel Trilogy (offscreen) in response to Rey and Ben's respective ascensions to power.
     
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  6. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Palpatine is alive and he ended the Skywalker line.
     
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  7. Matsemitsu

    Matsemitsu Rebel Trooper

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    I was also wondering about that part, especially considering our new knowledge that Snoke was essentially Palpatine's puppet. Remember that what Snoke wanted was primarily to find and kill Luke (remove the competition, as it were). Once he learned what he wanted from Rey, he wanted to kill her. That does line up with Palpatine's intentions early in TROS. My question at this point was: Snoke acted a bit surprised when he learned of Rey's existence (in TFA) and then her strength (in TLJ) - wouldn't Palpatine have had a sense of that? After all, he did want young Rey around originally. But I agree: both Palps and Snoke probably realized that adult Rey had already been set on a path that was so light side that it would be hard to turn her. Palps would know because he tried and failed with Luke. So killing her is easier as what he wants is a dark side successor, which he sees in Kylo.

    I believe that he doesn't realize until much later that his plan needs to change, and twice. First, and this is made explicit when he talks to Pryde, Leia's intervention "kills" Kylo Ren, so the dark side successor is gone. So his attention shifts to Rey, who he almost succeeds in goading into submitting to his ritual. (Did you all see it the same way that Rey was willing at the end to take part in order to save her friends?) When Ben shows up and he attacks them, he then finally realizes that he can drain their force powers or life energies or whatever it was to rejuvenate himself - why bother with a successor if they're so unreliable?

    So like much in TROS, it's a bit convoluted, but it does make sense.
     
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  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    Although Palpatine artificially created Snoke, they were never the same being, and Snoke had full autonomy.

    Palpatine used Snoke as a 'puppet King' to keep the First Order distracting the galaxy, but he did not impose his will upon him.
     
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  9. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    My initial thoughts on this were that Sidious was simply pitting potential against one another to see which would come out on top. Survival of the fittest, as it were. That seems to be his method of operation throughout the saga. He wanted Rey when she was young, but her parents hid her so she was off the table. After Kylo turned, I think he saw him as the most likely candidate. But since Rey won (through interference by Leia, but still a W nonetheless, moving Kylo off the table) and got to him he figured he'd try to turn her. Then it all came back on him and blew up in his face. His last thought was probably regret for having ever gotten involved with that insipid Anakin Skywalker. The last words he thought were probably to Anakin about his granddaughter, "You turned her against me!" "You have done that yourself!"
     
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  10. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Palpatine wanted the strongest force sensitive known being to take over. He didnt care if Rey or Ben. Just wanted who was the strongest. So he pits them against each other. When Ben turns he knows he cant win him over so Rey is the candidate.
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Agreed.

    I find it kind of humorous that people seem to think Palpatine has ever had a straightforward plan. They're all convoluted. Consider Endor, the raising of Anakin Skywalker, the World Between Worlds... I think it's fair to argue that he's not the master tactician that he claims to be, and acts on the fly, or inversely to believe that he really is always playing six dimensional chess. But to act like this is the first time he's had a complicated, and even seemingly conflicting plan, is kinda silly.
     
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  12. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    I don't think so... they had a "Force skype" moment after he arrived on Exogol and was confronting the Knights of Ren. I forget which one did it, but one of them kind of "nodded" in an unspoken agreement that Rey would fake it and Force-fax the lightsaber to him. So her willingness to pledge herself to the Sith was fake and intended to fool Palpatine and give Ben Solo a saber with which to fight the Knights of Ren at the same time.

    At least that's how I remember it.
     
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  13. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel General

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    Not quite. I just rewatched the movie. Rey at the site of her friends dying, nods and agreed to take part in the ritual. It's not until after, while she is grabbing her saber and walking towards Palpatine that she connects with Ben. It is at that moment Ben gives her the nod, and she decides to trick Palpatine and give Ben her saber through their force connection.

    Bottom line, Rey's body language and teary eyes at the moment she nods to Palpatine tell the audience she was 100% about to give in to the dark side to save her friends, just like Anikan did. Ben's arrival changed that at the last moment.
     
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  14. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel Commander

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    The overall plan is bats. Complete hash.
     
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  15. Rodney-2187

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    Palpatine is looking for someone to be the next recipient of all that is Sith. I doubt he would want to pass everything to Kylo who is obviously conflicted, despite how much he claims otherwise. Palpatine sends Kylo out so not only will Rey come to Exegol, but she will be emotionally compromised after learning she is Palpatine's granddaughter. It's part of making her feel she has no choice. Kylo wants to team up with Rey to defeat Palpatine, just as Dooku made a similar offer to Obi-Wan and also Vader to Luke. Palpatine probably expects something like that, but doesn't care either way, just so long as Rey gets to Exegol so he can manipulate her.

    But then something happens Palpatine didn't expect.

    Leia.

    Kylo tells Rey she is Palpatine's granddaughter, and that she can't go back, just as he can't go back. But Leia reaches out one last time to Ben. Unconditional love and forgiveness does want nothing else can and Ben is brought back. I think it's significant that Leia doesn't disappear until Ben does. The special bond between a mother and child.

    Rey still needs a little sage advice from master Luke, but by the time Rey and Ben are before Palpatine, it's definitely not the dynamic he was looking for. So his plan has essentially failed. Rey will not turn to the dark side, similar to how Luke threw down his lightsaber in Return of the Jedi. Then of course Palpatine discovers the special power associated with the dyad of Rey and Ben. He is restored but only to be destroyed, not by dark side hate, but the light of all the Jedi to save the galaxy.

    Ben comes up on the lifeless body of Rey and in a way does what he says in The Force Awakens. He finishes what Anakin started by stopping the one he loves from dying.
     
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  16. Pig-in-a-snoke

    Pig-in-a-snoke Rebelscum

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    The way I see it (and I posted something similar on another thread) is that the emperor wanted the Jedi eliminated and the sith to rise. Plain and simple.

    He created Snoke for the purpose of eliminating the last Jedi - Luke. Snoke states that through TFA and TLJ several times. Since we now know the emperor created Snoke, he was effectively carrying out his plan.

    That makes sense- Palps was weak when we saw him, no way would he stand a chance against Luke. Based on TROS- Luke sensed Palpatine was always out there, hence his search for Exogol. So Snoke was his puppet - he had a hand in destroying everything Luke built. Wearing the Jedi.

    at the beginning of TROS he senses Kylo’s power and decides to make his move. His move could go one of two ways in his mind as I see it.
    Easiest path- Kylo kills Rey the Jedi are eliminated Palps would then possess Kylo and rule again.
    Plan B- Eey kills Kylo and hints down the emperor where he would turn her based on blood etc.
    but in this case his “overconfidence was his weakness” and neglected to consider Leia (as he did in the OT) and her influence on Kylo which upended his plans.

    I really thought it was a well done conclusion to the saga given the circumstances. I hear people asking why did he want Rey when she was a child and want to kill her now. That’s an easy answer in my mind. As a child he could manipulate her, now she’s been corrupted by the Skywalkers.

    In any event, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and thought JJ did a grear job considering the hand he was dealt.

    haply New Year to all!!
     
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  17. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel General

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    Exactly. Excellent post and bang on points. Young Rey could have been raised to become the Empress of the new Empire. My original post was not so much confusion on my part, as I laid out most of the common sense points myself, but was very curious if others saw it as confusing as some haters were arguing.

    Cheers!
     
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  19. ichthys

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    Palpatine pretends that he is omniscient but he is just a goober.

    In Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader tells him that Luke is on Endor, and then Palpatine says something like, "Are you sure? Odd that I have not felt it." and then when Vader doubles down on this, Palpatine says, "Go- Luke will come to you, I have foreseen it." Man, you didn't foreseen anything, one second ago you didn't even believe Luke was on Endor.

    He does the same thing in Rise of Skywalker. I think his original plan was to goad Ben into killing Rey, maybe to stoke his hatred of Palpatine, and eventually possess Ben as his new host. When Leia helped redeem Ben though, Palpatine had to turn his sight to Rey, and when he meets her on Exegol, he is all like, "Ooooh yes, this was my plan the entire time. HEE HA HAAA HAAA, I AM A MASTERMIND" but in secret he confides to General Pryde that Leia totally messed up his plot.

    Also something to note- I suspect that Palpatine had a whole list of "Orders"- contingency plans.
    If we assume that Palpatine's plan was to subjugate the galaxy, then the similarity of the First Order to the Empire makes sense. Palpatine's First Order was to create an army with which he could control the galaxy. He did this with the clones, and then when he lost the Empire, he did this again with the First Order troops.

    Order 66 is to eliminate all the Jedi, the sixty-sixth step of his plan to take over the universe... and then The Final Order in his plan is to create a super weapon which can destroy all of his enemies. Hence why he keeps trying to build Death Stars. That's the final piece of his multi-step plan. I am curious to know what the other orders were though lol
     
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  20. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    I think if there was a chance of a plan, Rey was plan 'A' because apparently from the book leaks, she was the perfect vessel. Palps slaughtered her parents but she disappeared. Ben was plan B. But I just don't understand the Snoke angle. Maybe Snokey Palps grew close to Kylo. I dunno why he would switch back to Rey. But he did say bring the girl to him. Maybe he was testing both. Remember The Rule of Two requires the apprentice to kill the master, Kylo did that. Then beginning with RoS he's back with Kylo but then probably switched again after the sith lightning. That's one thing Kylo could not do. Plus Rey is technically the heir to the empire. She is by blood the next young empress

    Or maybe it's just bad writing.
     
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