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SPECULATION Plot Thoughts

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Ben-K-OB1, Aug 26, 2019.

  1. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    Yeah. I agree. I think ROTS does, as you say, super imply it, but I think Eps I and II have their own nods towards it too (“we will watch your career with great interest... “ yeah I bet you will, you sneaky sneak...!). But the fact it’s implied (however strongly) not directly stated/proven does leave room for a bit of doubt... so I think this would be a good film to remove that doubt, if they are ever going to.
     
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Again, completely unrelated to cloning.

    Pablo said that?

    Again, Pablo said that?

    Again, I'm fairly certain cloning and blood transfusion are different things...

    Cool. It has not been established that they were incapable of creating a couple clones.


    I'm definitely not sold entirely on the clone theory yet, and you definitely do bring up some interesting arguments, but I'm afraid these points are nowhere near as certain as you seem to think.
     
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  3. ITG

    ITG Force Sensitive

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    Sheev’s Master Plan

    Sheev’s ultimate goal was to cheat death and master immortality.

    He had a huge Sith Fleet built and stationed in the Unknown Regions as his contingency plan, if things went Piffers up with Vader and the Sith Order.

    He kept his old masters body (Darth Plagueis) there too, while he experimented with dark side weirdness (like the Acolytes of the Beyond) and needed him to continue with his plan...

    Remember that it was Sheev & Plagueis who were responsible for the creation of Anakin - just ask Pablo Hidalgo!

    Sheev needed a vessel/person that was in a position of power (Plagueis was rich, powerful, had a hand in the creation of the clone armies...and loved gold! #goldmember) if he was to continue with his master plan. Plagueis was the answer.

    When Sheev was “killed” he had already mastered the ability to cheat death which enables his spirit to possess others or remain in Sith Artefacts/Vader’s helmet - where he communes with Ren in his guise as Vader. When Ren discovers the truth (on the Death Star wreckage), it’ll be enough for him to turn back to light and save Rey before meeting his demise. Bendemption confirmed.

    Sheev took/possessed his old masters dead body and ruled as Snoke. This explains why Snoke looked dead and had a hole in his head and neck!! This also ties everything in and explains Snoke’s character, who was in such a position of power and force sensitive. It was all Palpatine’s plan.

    Balance had been restored by Anakin, as the Sith were destroyed - but Sheev had his contingency.

    When Snoke was “killed” by Ren, Palpatine’s Spirit returned to the Unknown Regions/Vader’s Helmet where he continued to manipulate Ren.

    Sheev will possess another being in TROS - Ren, Rey (or Matt Smith’s character?) to continue his plan.

    The only way that Sheev can be defeated is if Skywalker rises. The true form of Anakin Skywalker will appear and (maybe with Luke, Leia and Ben) drag sheev’s spirit ass into the depths of the Netherworld of the Force, sacrificing themselves in the process.

    Rey is left to build a new Jedi Order. No more Sheev. No more Skywalker’s. C3PO shuts down for the last time.

    The end.
     
    #23 ITG, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
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  4. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Similar to my idea, but I put Sheev spirit into a more transportable form. Snokes Ring. Snoke was a powerful dark side user and created the ring from material in the Sith temple under Vaders castle. Then he went to the Death Star ruins to capture Sheev spirit and contain it in the ring. Now he gets to move around with Snoke until Snoke's death.
     
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  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    This is a false statement.

    If a person is not already innately Force-sensitive because their cells do not have a suffiently high-enough Midichlorian count, you cannot pump them full of Midichlorian-rich blood and increase their Force sensitivity.

    Cloning a Force-sensitive person will not make that clone Force-sensitive.

    Palpatine did not "create" Anakin; the Darth Vader comic that seemingly implies otherwise does not in fact do so as per the Lucasfilm Story Group.

    The Imperial remnant that became the First Order was sent into the Unknown Regions on the personal directive of Palpatine himself transmitted in the immediate aftermath of his death as a "contingency".
     
  6. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    lol, no it isn't. The Rise of Skywalker will be current canon when the film is released. Until then it's future canon, not current canon, surely? You can cite current canon all you like, and it's often interesting to do so, but I think it's wrong to say things are literally impossible in a film we haven't seen only because you can't imagine them making sense based only on what we have seen.
     
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  7. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    Pablo said a blood transfusion won't grant you force powers not that you cant clone a Jedi. Also, it is strongly implied that Anakin was created by either Palpatine or Plageous and it was in the original ROTS script. It has also been strongly implied that was always Georges intention. So if Anakin was created, with force powers then someone like Rey can also be created, with force powers.

    Having read the Aftermath books I still think it is possible the plan for the empire to rebirth itself as The First Order could very well just be a ruse. I don't think it is a coincidence that all those Star Destoyers are Imperial and not First Order. To me, it is very possible he wanted the galaxy thrown into chaos so he could sweep in and take over as the savior to the galaxy. Remember he was elected Emporer with cheers in the Senate. It is not his M.O. to simply take over by force.

    I also think that as the Thrawn story grows we might very well find that he is the Admiral of this secret imperial sith fleet. Remember that he was never a fan of the death stars, he thought that having a large fleet of powerful, maneuverable capital ships was the better route to take. And in that image, we are seeing just that.
     
    #27 Ben-K-OB1, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
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  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    The Rise of Skywalker became part of the current Canon the moment it went into production.

    Whether or not an audience has seen it is irrelevant because Canon as a concept is not defined or determined by what an audience experiences; the concept of Canon also holds no true meaning for audiences because audience interaction with Canon is passive.
     
  9. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    This may just be semantics, but I disagree. I think it became part of future canon. That's still canon, just not current canon. I don't think it's current canon until it's finished. But either way, you don't know what is in it yet so it seems premature to rule anything out in the way you have - if you're arguing it is already current canon you surely have even less firm footing to make such declarative statements, apparently relying on your own interpretation of tweets by Pablo (is Snagglepuss current canon? :D j/k) rather than any actual in-universe canon information to point to.

    Like if I say 'current canon proves Luke is definitely not a banana', that seems sensible - we have not seen any evidence of that in Eps I-VIII or any other canon material. But if we are saying Episode IX is current canon because it's going to be released in December and is still being worked on - who is to say Luke will not be revealed as a banana!? :D:p

    (luke)"Wait, I might be a banana now? Nooooooooo!" (lightsaber)
     
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  10. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I personally have many doubts about the new canon being more than something worth to be read per se.
    In pterodactyl words, I am under the impression that is not there to give us clues. I believe is there so that we can enjoy something that does contradict (and spoil) the movies.

    However the point you make about the Imperial Fleet is spot on, regardless what we think about the Aftermath serie.

    But I’d like to add something more....

    The Resistance and the Rebellion are decimated.

    They are in a far worst position than the Rebel Alliance ever was.
    When the movie begins little has change (as some of the cast interviews prove).

    They have not arms, allies, etc...

    In addition, the FO guys seem to be Imperial fanatics.
    They don’t have that much of reasons to not pledge themselves to Sidius, if he comes back.

    Kylo might see that as a problem. But why Hux should?

    Therefore... a team up between Kylo (not the FO as whole) and the Resistance vs Sidius... is possible, but weak imo.

    What may be an interesting alternative, one that can also hold up the tension til the finale...
    is to balance the power of the FO and of the resistance. And that can be achieved if the Imperial fleet is somehow gained by the “good guys”.

    And once the 2 factions are ready to destroy one another, only then Sidius’ master plan (that is to take advantage of such destruction, something that in addition increases the “dark side”) will be made clear.
     
    #30 lealt, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
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  11. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    Nothing is cannon until it is. I think Pablo himself has said that. Pablo isn't the god of the star wars universe, he just makes sure nothing contradicts cannon.

    And the movies have the top priority with regards to cannon. So if JJ wanted to put something in ROS that contradicted a comic or a book or something, he probably could.

    Either way, unless something in cannon has said "you can't clone a Jedi" then that statement isn't cannon.


    Anyway....


    I never understood the Rey as a Luke clone theory. Wouldn't Luke's clone be...you know..male? And wouldn't it require a lot of unnecessary explanation to say why she is female?


    Now, I could see her being a clone or a creation of the Emperor. Maybe that plastic looking evil Rey isn't a vision of the (possible)future, but a flashback to the original copy so to speak? In other words, maybe Rey is a clone (one of many?) of a sith from back in the day?

    I doubt it, just throwing that out there.


    I hoped she would be a Solo or Luke's thought dead daughter.

    My next favored option is she is essentially the reincarnation of the chosen one, of Anakin.

    I suppose "the emperor created her just as he did Anakin" is close to that option. I guess that would make Rey Luke's aunt.


    But a female (for some reason) clone of Luke's severed hand? I dunno. I doubt it.


    I'll say this, if the evil Rey thing is just a ESB-type vision for Rey or Kylo, I'm going to be pretty disappointed. It just seems too obvious.
     
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  12. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Liked your theory but I hope you're wrong. Otherwise you would have spoiled the movie for me...:D
     
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  13. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    I doubt it too... but just for argument’s sake a couple of thoughts on the idea -

    First of all why female? Well why not?

    The how: One thing we do know about clones in Star Wars that definitely is canon is that they can be modified or unmodified (clone troopers vs Boba). So if they can be modified like the clone troopers were, a simple change like male to female would be a very minor thing I think.

    The why: Could be any number of reasons depending on exactly the purpose - perhaps it could have been the simplest way to disguise she is a Luke clone. Or perhaps several clones were made with various differences and she was the most naturally force-sensitive (to the earlier discussion, not through blood transfusions!!!! :D).

    Secondly, it would be quite amusing to go back and watch TLJ again as gives herself/himself a good talking to lol, and seeing Snoke fooled that Skywalker hadn’t turned up when he(she) kind of had.

    Lastly it would be the ‘have your cake and eat it’ solution to being a Skywalker but not a relative exactly... and the message that some took and liked in TLJ that ‘anyone could be a Jedi’... maybe more ‘a Jedi could be anyone’, if you see the subtle distinction - that male or female, clone or not, the potential is there...

    I’m starting to convince myself now. :D

    I don’t know. But I do feel it’s something. I don’t think it’s just Rey was an ordinary orphan with bad parents and she happened to be powerful. I think there is more to her. It might be something simple, it might be super-crazy huge. But something.

    But that is not to say I am pinning my hopes of the movie on that. It could be great and she truly is a ‘nobody’, or it could be she has some epic reveal about being a clone/chosen one/Skywalker relative/reincarnation and not be so great. It’s fun wondering and it’ll be fun finding out either way for me I think.
     
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  14. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    That's no longer how things work.

    No part of the current Star Wars Canon is more important than any other, and the Story Group exists for the sole and specific purpose of ensuring that there are no contradictions between one piece of the Canon and any other pieces of the Canon.
     
  15. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    I’m pretty sure Pablo himself has said movies take precedence.

    And I’m fairly certain there is already an example. Poe and Rey met in the TFA novel, didn’t they?

    TLJ outranks that.

    Fairly minor, but it does prove that Pablo isn’t in a room approving things.

    Also, I mean no disrespect, but of course Disney is going to SAY it’s all aligned and there will be zero contradictions. If they said otherwise, a lot of people wouldn’t bother with the supplemental stuff.

    At the end of the day a movie that makes billions is going to be a lot more important than novels, etc.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they try. But Pablo isn’t going to veto JJ Abrams based on something in a novel or comic.

    Like he didn’t veto having Rey and Poe meet in TLJ.

    (One could argue TLJ didn’t even align with TFA the movie in ways, but I’ll ignore that here)

    Even then, something isn’t cannon until it is. Pablo tweets aren’t cannon. If JJ said “let’s make Rey a Luke clone” then it happens
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 28, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 28, 2019 ---
    Well, I’ll say this. When I first read the theory, it made the TFA severed hand opening make more sense.

    There is no other not gross reason to even consider that opening- you could just show the saber dropping if you wanted to show the journey of the saber.

    So, I don’t think it’s completely off the wall- I just think it’s unlikely due to having to explain why lukes clone is a woman.

    That said, I don’t hate it. It’s better than Rey nobody. It also makes the title of the movie make more sense.

    I think dark Rey is a vision Kylo has. I think it’s a pretty bogus trick to pull, but I think it’s most likely.

    As far as who Rey is, I’m still pulling for a skywalker or solo somehow. If that means Luke clone, I’ll take it as my last choice lol
     
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  16. Darth Sploder

    Darth Sploder Rebel Commander

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    When the og star wars: a new hope “went into production” Luke’s last name was Starkiller. I guess we all can’t wait for “The Rise of Starkiller.”
     
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  17. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    "Production" in this case means "filming".

    The concept of Canon is often misinterpreted by fans of any given property to be something that they - as fans - need to be worried about and that is sacrosanct, but this isn't really the case. The only people who need - and ought - to be worried about the concept of Canon are those responsible for officially creating content for a given property.

    Canon, as a concept, isn't "a stick to beat people with"; it's a creative framework intended to help facilitate and shape the creation of content.
     
  18. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    As @Porco Azzurro said
    An unaltered Luke would look like well Luke. Modifying the Clone to be female would probably the best way to disguise who the person is.
    Not that I like the clone idea, but it's not that it's impossible.
    Deal in absolutes only a sith would do.
     
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  19. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    That seems a very arbitrary definition. Why not at the script-writing stage? Or concept art? Or post-production (FX, editing, scoring)? What about when alternate takes that materially affect factual information are filmed? Which one is “current canon” then?

    Ok, so next time you tell us something is impossible because of what “current canon” says (however you decide to define that), we can all just shrug and say ‘I don’t need to worry about that...’. Thanks ;)

    Seriously, I do take your point that canon is determined by creators, not audiences. But I believe you were the one who brought it up. I don’t think there is anything wrong with doing so, and I think it’s only natural that fans will want to frame their thoughts and speculation through the lens of what is or is not considered canon.

    However, in Star Wars the concept of canon has been a long and winding road. I think one has to be extra-careful when making bold proclamations about what is and isn’t possible due to canon because “many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view” and there is a lot of stuff in Star Wars that we see a certain way until new, canon, information comes along that up-ends it totally and re-contextualises it.

    On a meta-level, Star Wars kind of is all about continual re-contextualisation. George Lucas talked about his love of re-using concepts and ideas but in slightly different ways than before, from characters, to dialogue, design, plot points etc etc (and the same is very very much true of John Williams’ music for the saga).

    All of which is a very meandering way of saying I think it’s great to pay attention to canon, but getting too hung up on interpretations of what may not be possible because of it is often a waste of time IMHO. I think it’s much more fun to imagine the possibilities, however unlikely-seeming, until one knows for certain what actually happens in the canon material.
     
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  20. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    To put what I said another way, "Creators define Canon; fans don't".

    That is one of the reasons that what creators say about the thing they are creating is super-important, particularly if they are saying things about their creation without being promoted to do so.

    And Pablo, as a member of the Story Group, is very much a creator of SW content.
     
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