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Poll: Who do you think is telling the truth about TFA story authorship, JJ or Lucas?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Hopsa Vialb, Nov 21, 2015.

?

Who do you think is telling the truth about the TFA story.

  1. Lucas is telling the truth that they scrapped his story and made up their own.

    34 vote(s)
    42.5%
  2. JJ is telling the truth that the story is by George Lucas.

    21 vote(s)
    26.3%
  3. JJ is just referring to the OT when he says Lucas wrote the ST.

    28 vote(s)
    35.0%
  4. JJ was telling the truth when he said he and Kasdan made up their own story.

    32 vote(s)
    40.0%
  5. No story existed. Lucasfilm and Bob Iger lied about detailed treatments being completed before sale.

    3 vote(s)
    3.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Old Biff from the Future

    Old Biff from the Future Dune Sea Hermit

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    On the general chronological relationship of the ST to the overall Saga as then envisioned, discussed in an interview with Lucas, held in the study of his San Anselmo editing facility in Marin County, California on Monday, 29 May 1979, by Alan Arnold for his book Once Upon a Galaxy: A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes

    Back
    , Del Rey, 1980 (p. 247-248):
    AA: Tell me more about the overall concept of the Star Wars saga.
    GL: There are a series of nine films in a series of three trilogies. The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twenty years before the second trilogy which includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years.
    AA: How much is written?
    GL: I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes, histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes. Some of it will be used, some not. Originally, when I wrote Star Wars, it developed into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So it cut it in half, but it was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars I added anothet trilogy but stopped there, primarily because reality took over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars picture. How many years are left? So I'm still left with three trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen hours of film!
    AA: What will the next chapter be?
    GL: The next chapter is called "Revenge of the Jedi." It's the end of this particular trilogy, the conclusion of the conflict begun in Star Wars between Luke and Darth Vader. It resolves that situation once and for all. I won't say who survives and who doesn't, but if we are ever able to link together all three you'd find the story progresses in a very logical fashion.

    Iinterviewer: Will Luke Skywalker ever get married ?
    Lucas: Not in the next three, since he is not born.
    Interviewer: In the final trilogy ?
    Lucas: I don't know. I'm not sure which kind of characters will be in the sequels. Nothing definitive. We'll have to wait and see.
    - Youth TV interview, 1997


    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2015 ---
    In a 2008 interview in Total Film, Lucas more categorically ruled out anybody else ever making the sequel trilogy - or other future Star Wars features. Asked if he was happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after he was gone, Lucas replied:

    "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."
     
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  2. Hopsa Vialb

    Hopsa Vialb Clone

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    If they wanted Lucas to pretend he had nothing to do with it, why wait until Arndt left?

    Can someone point out the lie?
     
    #42 Hopsa Vialb, Nov 21, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  3. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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  4. patriot8813

    patriot8813 Rebel Official

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    I'm probably way off. Its just Lucas hand picked Kennedy to run Lucasfim, set up treatments with Arndt and then got the big 3 to come back before selling to Disney, according to reports anyway. It was all set up for them. I don't believe Kennedy and Disney sacked everything they worked on to come up with brand new everything. I think they used Lucas/Arndt story as a baseline and delayed the films release to write their own movie when they didn't find Arndt's screenplay satisfactory. Initially when Disney bought the franchise, they did a lot of public stuff about how Lucas would be involved and then we got all this negative backlash to that. And everything about the marketing of the film has been about separating it from the prequels and recapturing the original trilogy. What better way to do that, then in the lead up to the movie have Lucas do interviews talking about how he isn't involved in these films at all. Crappy conspiracy theory I guess, haha.
     
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  5. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I am thinking that he is saying not that there were never plans but gave up the plans and "there are no stories because I didn't write them" reffers to complete stories not loose outlines.
     
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  6. Hopsa Vialb

    Hopsa Vialb Clone

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    Put yourself in the shoes of a story writer who was told your story was rejected, and you left. How would you know what they were doing instead? You would still know they rejected your story, but you wouldn't know what they were doing. If they changed their minds, you would think someone would tell him.
     
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  7. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    We know how Lucas develops his Star Wars movies, because we've seen the process before.
    Firstly, we know he grew to hate the the writing process - he has said so himself numerous times over the years, and that is why he decided to bring other writers in for the subsequent movies.

    "I'm very, very adamant about my creative work. Even when I was young I was not that willing to even listen to other people's ideas - I wanted everything to be my way. Over the years, starting in film school, I did start to work with others, because film is so collaborative, but I was still pretty closed-minded. [...] I fought for many years to make sure no-one could tell me what to do." - George Lucas

    He tends to compile notes; lists of names, things that he thinks he may be able to use at some point, even though he may not be sure how at the time. As we know, these lists have been mined over and over again throughout the creation of all six movies - names like Whitesun, Mace, Windu, Utapau for example can be traced right back to the lists created for the very first movie despite not getting used until the prequels.
    [​IMG]

    This is often done before any realistic consideration has even been given to the story:
    "I was searching around for a story. I had some scenes - the cantina scene and the space battle scene - but I couldn't think of a basic plot. Originally, the film was a concept in search of a story. And then I thought of Hidden Fortress, which I'd seen ing 1972 or 73, and so the plots were very much like it." - George Lucas

    The actual process of crafting a story doesn't come easy to Lucas; he has explained how he has to regiment his working day, and how the bulk of the work is done at the last minute when he is under most pressure get things done:
    "I put a big calendar on my wall. Tuesday I have to be on page 25, Wednesday page 30, and so on. And every day I 'X' it off - I did those five pages. And if I do my five pages early, I get to quit. Never happens. I've always got about one page done by four o'clock in the afternoon and during the next hour I usually write the rest. Sometimes I'll get up early and write a lot of pages, but that doesn't really happen much." - George Lucas

    As the story takes shape, it seems Lucas tends to set out vague objectives the plot must achieve.

    [​IMG]

    The prequel making of documentaries reveal that little has changed since then, at least not while he was developing those movies 10-15 years ago anyway. The Phantom Menace was basically one draft. At one point we see Lucas, almost apologetic, handing in a finished draft for ROTS while production is well under way.




    Don't get me wrong here - I'm not saying there is anything wrong or unusual in this. I'm sure writers/filmmakers all have their own unique methods, and I'm sure countless filmmakers probably work, or have worked, in a similar way to Lucas.

    All I am getting at is that Lucas has, over the years, retrospectively given the impression he had the movies pretty much figured out, when the reality was he certainly had lots of ideas and books full of notes... but nothing approaching an actual story treatment as we would understand it, much less a script.

    I mean, this is the reality of precisely where he was after completing the first movie.

    [​IMG]

    You've got to appreciate that having lots of ideas flying around inside your head about where a story may go, or having loads of notebooks full of names and possible plot points is light years away from actually sitting down and developing a working story treatment and eventual draft of a movie screenplay for production.
    Understandably, I suppose, Lucas has often spoken about these vague concepts as if he has already gone through that process of translating what is in his mind on to the page, which is easy to do retrospectively after you have finally gone through that process (in other words "I had it all figured out beforehand; I must have done because I did come up with that script and it was based on my ideas and notebooks.")


    So lets have a look at some quotes from Lucas in "Star Wars is done" mode, just to get that out of the way:

    "The whole story has six episodes... If I ever went beyond that, it would be something that was made up. I really don't have any notion other than, 'Gee, it would be interesting to do Luke Skywalker later on.' It wouldn't be part of the main story, but a sequel to this thing."
    - George Lucas, 1997

    "Right at this moment, the answer is no. Once the prequel trilogy is complete I plan to put Star Wars on the shelf and walk away from it for good. There are many other kinds of films I would like to make."
    - George Lucas, 1997

    "When you see it in six parts, you'll understand. It really ends at part six. I never had a story for the sequels, for the later ones."
    - George Lucas, 1999

    "I will not do VII, VIII and IX. No. They [someone else] will not. This is it. This is all there is."
    - George Lucas, 1999

    "Han and Leia did get married. They settled down. She became a senator, and they got a nice little house with a white picket fence. Han Solo is out there cooking burgers on the grill. Is that a movie? I don't think so."
    - George Lucas, 2005

    "The movies were the story of Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker, and when Luke saves the galaxy and redeems his father, that's where that story ends."
    - George Lucas, 2008

    "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."
    - George Lucas, 2008





    And the flip-side of that coin?

    "Based on the second of twelve stories in George Lucas’ Adventures of Luke Skywalker series, the first draft of the screenplay [of Empire Strikes Back] was written by Leigh Brackett."
    - Bantha Tracks 1978

    "The sequel will be based directly on the second of twelve stories George Lucas wrote in the Adventures of Luke Skywalker."
    - Bantha Tracks #3, 1978

    "Lucas has set up four corporations: Star Wars Corp. will make STAR WARS II, and then, count them, ten other planned sequels."
    - TIME Magazine, March 6 1978

    "Overseeing it all are Director Irvin Kershner... and Executive Producer George Lucas, making sure that every phase of production keeps to his vision for the entire twelve part saga."
    - Bantha Tracks, autumn 1979

    "I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes, histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes. Some of it will be used, some not. Originally, when I wrote Star Wars, it developed into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So it cut it in half, but it was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars I added anothet trilogy but stopped there, primarily because reality took over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars picture. How many years are left? So I'm still left with three trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen hours of film!
    "The next chapter is called 'Revenge of the Jedi'. It's the end of this particular trilogy, the conclusion of the conflict begun in Star Wars between Luke and Darth Vader. It resolves that situation once and for all. I won't say who survives and who doesn't, but if we are ever able to link together all three you'd find the story progresses in a very logical fashion."
    - George Lucas, 1979

    "It [the sequel trilogy] deals with the character who survives Star Wars III [Return of the Jedi] and his adventures."
    - George Lucas to Bantha Tracks, Spring 1980

    Rolling Stone: "Do you have story lines for the seven Star Wars movies left to be done?"
    George Lucas: "Yes, twelve-page outlines."
    - Rolling Stone, June 1980

    Starlog: "Is there going to be character continuity among all three trilogies?"
    Lucas: "No - possibly the robots, but they weren't originally designed to go through the whole... nobody was designed to go through all three [trilogies]. I'd like to see the robots go through them, but I don't know whether they will."
    - Starlog, July 1981

    "The third [trilogy will] deal with moral and philosophical problems. In Star Wars, there is a very clear line drawn between good and evil. Eventually you have to face the fact that good and evil aren't that clear-cut and the real issue is trying to understand the difference. The sequel is about Jedi knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."
    - George Lucas, Worrell, Icons: Intimate Portraits, 1983

    Starlog: "Will you return to the Star Wars universe?"
    Lucas: "Hopefully, I will someday be doing the next three Star Wars, but I'm not sure when. The next three would take place 20 or 30 years before the films they're celebrating here today. I'll do the first trilogy first. There are nine [films] floating around there somewhere. I'll guarantee that the first three are pretty much organized in my head, but the other three are kind of out there somewhere."
    Starlog: "Why didn't you give Luke a girl?"
    Lucas: "You haven't seen the last three yet."
    - Starlog, issue 127, February 1988


    "Luke would now be a 60-something mentor figure like Kenobi. Hamill and the others will get first crack at the roles – if they look old enough.”
    - George Lucas, 1983

    "[Episodes VII, VIII and IX deal with] the rebuilding of the Republic [and] the necessity for moral choices and the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong. If the first trilogy is social and political and talks about how society evolves, Star Wars is more about personal growth and self-realization, and the third deals with moral and philosophical problems. In Star Wars there is a very clear line drawn between good and evil. Eventually you have to face the fact that good and evil aren’t that clear cut, and the real issue is trying to understand the difference. The sequel is about Jedi Knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."
    George Lucas, 1983

    "Empire and Jedi were what that first film was supposed to be. And after that, I can tell another story about what happens to Luke after this trilogy ends. All the prequel stories exist: where Darth Vader came from, the whole story about Darth and Ben Kenobi, and it all takes place before Luke was born. The other one - what happens to Luke afterwards - is much more ethereal. I have a tiny notebook full of notes on that. If I'm really ambitious, I could proceed to figure out what would have happened to Luke."
    George Lucas, circa 1990

    Interviewer: "Will Luke Skywalker ever get married?"
    George Lucas: "Not in the next three, since he is not born."
    I: "In the final trilogy?"
    GL: "I don't know. I'm not sure which kind of characters will be in the sequels. Nothing definitive. We'll have to wait and see."
    - Youth TV interview, 1997

    Johnny Vaughan: "The way I imagine it is that George has this great big leather book, covered in dust, it's the Chronicles of Space and you've written the whole thing already and it's complete in your own mind. Is that right?"
    George Lucas: "No, that's wrong."
    JV: "You don't have the complete story, mapped out from the start, all those years ago?"
    GL: "No."
    JV: "Okay, nice one, so you're winging it."
    GL: "No, I have a little story treatment, a little outline that says this happened here, this happened here and, in the first one I had all the scripts, but I had to rewrite the scripts so they went along because since they became three movies, they had to have different structures and things, but the ones I'm working on now, was the back story which I'd written out, which was this was where he comes from, this was were he comes from, this is what the Clone Wars were about; it's just a little outline that goes right through the plot of the movie and where the characters came from and what they did - it's only about seven or eight pages."
    JV: "Oh, that's brilliant, all those people that think you've schemed the whole thing up, but in fact, George Lucas, he makes it up as he goes along."
    GL: (Chuckles)
    - The Big Breakfast, BBC Television, July 16th, 1999

    "The story of Star Wars is actually recounted by R2-D2... [to a Shaman of the Whills] 100 years after Return of the Jedi."
    - Making of ROTS, 2005

    "The final episode is the restoration of the Republic."
    - Making of TESB, 2010

    "So once Kathy came on board we starting working with writers and started working on all the processes of doing the films. So, we've got a plan for seven, eight and nine, which is the end of the trilogy, and other films also. So, we have a large group of ideas and characters and books and all kinds of things, we could go on making Star Wars for the next hundred years. I have story treatments of seven, eight and nine and a bunch of other movies. And obviously we have hundreds of books and comics and everything you can possibly imagine. So, you know, I've sorta moved that treasure trove of stories and various things to [Kathleen Kennedy] and have I complete confidence that she's gonna take them and make great movies."
    - October 2012

    "It was originally a 12-part saga. The three most exciting stories were 7, 8 and 9. They had propulsive action, really interesting new worlds, new characters. I remember thinking, ‘I want to see these 3 movies."
    - Dale Pollock, October 2012

    "Ultimately you have to say, ‘Look, I know what I’m doing. Buying my stories is part of what the deal is.’ I’ve worked at this for 40 years, and I’ve been pretty successful, I mean, I could have said, ‘Fine, well, I’ll just sell the company to somebody else.’?”
    “I mostly say, ‘You can’t do this. You can do that,’?” Lucas says. “You know, ‘The cars don’t have wheels. They fly with antigravity.’ There’s a million little pieces. Or I can say, ‘He doesn’t have the power to do that, or he has to do this.’ I know all that stuff.”
    - Businessweek, March 7, 2013




    Okay, so what are we supposed to make of all this conflicting information?

    Personally, I think the key thing to always keep in mind, as I mentioned earlier, is the huge void between "a story" and an actual treatment or script that can be developed, in a practical sense, into a movie.
    To put that into perspective, we know for a fact that Lucas's own 10-page hand-written treatment for "The Star Wars" dated May 1973 was radically different to the film he eventually made.
    (But then, he's never going to get mad at himself for chucking out most of his own movie treatment.)
    Really, all Abrams and Kasdan have done is develop the movie from the story outlines, as they were employed to do. Just like Lucas did decades ago, and may even have done again this time around if he was the one at the helm once again.

    So for me, the issue is not really "Did Lucas really intend to make the sequels; how far developed were those movies?"
    Because we know they were not developed enough for Ardnt to have turned in a completed script, yet developed enough for Lucas to discuss the broader themes he was intending to cover and even for a third party - Dale Pollock - to claim to have seen them and be impressed by them.

    Think about this - if Lucas is wanting to be "surprised" by the movies; if he doesn't want Kennedy to tell them about how they are progressing, then how can he know how much exactly they have deviated from his original ideas.
    Seems to me more like the collaboration simply broke down, if there ever was a "collaboration" in the traditional sense - seems to me more like Lucas was only ever a kind of go-to consultant on the technical aspects of the galaxy far, far away from the get-go.

    Abrams has subtly tried to distance his Star Wars movie form the prequels, and Lucas has consequently tried to distance himself from Abrams's production. It's pretty obvious what is going on, it's a fairly polite piece of Piffer-for-tat between the two directors.

    Don't forget - Lucas was still dead against the idea of sequels in 2008. He was involved in Red Tails shortly after that. Disney had purchased Star Wars by October 2012.
    Logic dictates whatever energies Lucas put into the sequels in recent years, the actual net product must have been, comparatively speaking, fairly insubstantial.
    And taking into account how he has always worked in the past, the burden must have fallen back on Lucas's notebooks - the "treasure trove" referred in the Kennedy interviews.

    So I don't think anyone is "lying" really - it's kinda more complex than that.
    Episode VII was always going to "move on" from where it was when Lucas handed LucasFilm over to Disney - that is what developing a movie is all about.
    It's possible Abrams and Kasdan have changed something fundamental about Lucas's general themes for the sequels, but I doubt that would be making some of the protagonists - what 19-25 years old rather than 13-16 years old, for example - it would have to be something bigger than that, IMHO.
    I think it's more likely that Lucas is simply reacting to the fact that Arndt was dropped and Abrams and co publicly distancing themselves from the prequels, reading between the lines...








    TL - DR version:

    Abrams and Kasdan's description of "some notes on a board", and Lucas's idea of "story treatments for the sequels" may actually be pretty much the same thing...
     
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  8. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    If he stays we'd probably get things like the horde of CG monkeys we saw in the Crystal Skull. No disrespect to Lucas, but you can't tell me that was Spielberg's idea.
     
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  9. Hopsa Vialb

    Hopsa Vialb Clone

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    So then you don't believe in the detailed treatments Disney said they bought?
     
  10. Old Biff from the Future

    Old Biff from the Future Dune Sea Hermit

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    #50 Old Biff from the Future, Nov 21, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
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  11. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    I don't believe they were necessarily "detailed"...
    Regardless I think it's only natural they evolved from that point onwards, just like Lucas's treatment for the original films, and every film ever made to a greater or lesser degree...
     
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  12. Hopsa Vialb

    Hopsa Vialb Clone

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    JJ was directing anyway, so they would be practical monkies. Or Andy Serkis.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2015 ---
    Nov 14th, 2012
    Disney CEO Bob Iger stated they feel “really good” about the “extensive and detailed treatment for what would be the next three movies"
    http://airlockalpha.com/9418/lucas-announces-episode-vii-screenwriter-html

    "Arndt has written a 40-50 page treatment for the subsequent Star Wars films to be released by Disney, which will comprise what is being dubbed the Sequel Trilogy"
     
    #52 Hopsa Vialb, Nov 21, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
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  13. Old Biff from the Future

    Old Biff from the Future Dune Sea Hermit

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    Interesting
     
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  14. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    GL storytelling at it's best - playing with scale, depth, space & time... *wistful sigh*
     
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  15. Solo

    Solo Rebel Official

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    What? Is it not possible to have both? I don't understand his thinking tbh.

    Personally, I think less George the better going forward with the franchise. He had his time.
     
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  16. Assy McGee

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    Thanks for posting that, though I have read some of it before, it's interesting to see how much his claims have contracted each other. It's apparent to me that he really didn't have anything solid laid out for ST and he likes to embellish a lot.
    I imagine he gave KK a rough outline of where things were going and even at that, he could and possibly would have altered that outline himself.
    I would be very surprised if they haven't used his ideas here and there when developing TFA.
     
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  17. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous Rebel General

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    A lot of that seems clear to me but another way to look at it instead of how some people see it as a 'rebooting' is a 'RESETTING'.

    Ie. To get the franchise back on track by fixing all the problems of the prequels and get back to the style/story/effects of the original.

    It is not going to be easy to do all this and come up with Super original ideas. I think the priority is get the head above water and get back on track, then go for home runs.

    It is like a business metaphor. If you are loss making, before you can 'make a profit' you have to 'break even'.
    If you are playing sport and are injured, before you swing for the fences, you have to recover and rehabilitate etc..

    They are looking at balancing the books (i.e. the books of the OT and PT) and to find equilibrium.

    Hope this makes sense!
     
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  18. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    You're missing my point - you asked me what I believe. The whole point of my post was I don't believe the definition of "detailed treatment" being used here is necessarily what actually comprises a detailed treatment in a more realistic sense. But both are applicable within the context they are being used...
    :)
     
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  19. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    Haha yes I agree, i'm still holding out to see the movie but ya know.. Star Wars is George Lucas. I'll make up my mind on the 18th :)
     
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  20. Emperor Abrams

    Emperor Abrams Rebel General

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    Lucas is telling the truth. He has nothing to lose.


    That said, although it's unlikely he wouldn't know what the movie is about if he wanted to find out, it could just be he hasn't seen the movie, and Disney/JJ did use his ideas, but tweaked some things. I'd like to think JJ isn't "lying", but I trust George.
     
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