1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Predetermination in Star Wars apologetics

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by metadude, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Posts:
    243
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    1,020
    Ratings:
    +656 / 11 / -5
    Star Wars contains a pretty apparent predeterminstic quality. We're always hearing things like "your destiny" and "will of the force" "all is as the force wills it" "no such thing as luck" and so on. My question is, how would you think this plays into the events of the films as a means of justification of, well, everything happening. For instance, when watching a movie you can often find yourself, or someone else, saying "That's too much of a coincidence that he just happens to be in that place at that time" or just, general critiquing of such "improbably lucky events"

    There's an anecdote of mine in which I wrote a short story called "A Date With Destiny" and it was about this girl who was supposed to meet someone for a date, and everything was going wrong along the way. She was lamenting about her luck as circumstance after circumstance keep derailing her attempt. Well it all goes tragically wrong(?), she ends up learning that the date was really a joke being played on her by a cruel guy and his friends, and she ends up weeping on a bench at a bus stop in the rain. The rain stops falling on her and she looks up and there's this guy with his umbrella over her. He's looking at her with empathy, and he's holding a book. She looks at the title and it connects with something she said at the beginning of the story. She smiles as she understands what has transpired.

    So I actually got rejections back from publishers which said they liked the story but "the ending was just too improbable" and I would think "Did these people not read the title of the story? It's about destiny. Not only is this ending probable - it's unavoidable! The girl was being actively directed to be in that specific place at that specific time." Now the point of this being the question, when is it reasonably valid to question the events or choices of characters in the Star Wars movies? When is the answer "Because it's predetermined and has to happen this way" not sufficient?

    It's a question I'm hesitant to ask because, in my experience, there are a fair amount of people who just don't like the idea of things being predetermined and so that clouds their ability to approach the idea in a way that is purely detached from presuppositions. But, I'm going to go ahead and put it out there. In a random world of luck-based events, the characters and events of Star Wars are off-the-charts improbable. It's staggeringly improbable occurrence after staggering improbable occurrence. But in a predetermined world of destiny-based events, it's all exactly as it should be and couldn't be any other way.

    What are you thoughts on this?
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  2. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    14,351
    Trophy Points:
    146,617
    Credits:
    11,728
    Ratings:
    +16,062 / 29 / -4
    John Calvin: A Star Wars Story


    I mean, the movies imply that the Force guides certain events. But characters also make choices. If I had to argue purely on the evidence of the films, it seems that the Force sets up certain occurrences but allows individual actors to influence things from there. A Chosen One will bring balance to the Force. If Anakin turns to Vader, the Force will bring up Luke. If Luke goes away to an island and hides away, the Force will bring up Rey. It seems like a great influencing spiritual force moreso than a God-like sovereign actor.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    6,967
    Trophy Points:
    87,467
    Credits:
    6,863
    Ratings:
    +10,331 / 40 / -11
    Well, going by George’s recent comments on the matter, the Whills are apparently Force beings that do in fact influence events in the material world. If they’re actively guiding things to some preferred outcome, is that predeterminism or is it just ‘encouragement’?
     
    • Wise Wise x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    while it does play a big part in the past (and that's certainly true of almost any fantasy in which you have things like "chosen ones"), i do think the ST is trying to kick that a little. the tension between Rey and Ben is that Rey was "chosen" but she's determined to carve her own fate whereas Ben (also "chosen"), has really given up on the idea of free will when we first meet him.

    his first apparent act of autonomy is to kill his "master", but even then he can't "let go" of the belief that he's destined to rule the galaxy and so killing Snoke becomes a logical necessity toward this end (you can literally see him puzzling this out in the throne room after he and Rey dispatch the guards).
    Rey's journey, on the other hand, was one in which she came to believe she was destined to turn Ben ~ but she got schooled on that point in TLJ rather hard.
    now she is actively looking to choose for herself.

    i suspect both of them will discover that they have to make choices/decisions for themselves ~ that destiny is not going to make things happen for them.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Posts:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,511
    Trophy Points:
    6,192
    Credits:
    2,608
    Ratings:
    +2,411 / 394 / -178

    I don't quite agree. It's one thing to say that certain characters in the saga are obviously believers in predetermination. But I don't think the saga's narrative supports or accepts predetermination. I think it conveyed that in the end, a person's fate basically comes about by choice, even if that person makes the mistake in believing that destiny determines everything in our lives.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2017
    Posts:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    4,967
    Credits:
    1,920
    Ratings:
    +1,645 / 29 / -27
    I agree, and I like it. I see no conflict between predetermination and free will. Let me put it like this...You can become anything you want (free will), but what you want depends on what you already are (predetermination). See? No conflict.

    I love that!

    Too improbable? In fiction? That's what they actually said? Then they were idiots. And ironically, the fact that you only came across idiots when trying to publish that story (an improbable situation) proved their point wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Posts:
    243
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    1,020
    Ratings:
    +656 / 11 / -5
    I presume you'd agree that there are then a lot of people, force-sensitive or not, that are espousing the notion that everything is predetermined. The Jedi, the Sith, the blind guy from Rogue One. Basically most, if not all, of the people who say anything about the subject seem pretty consistent on the paradigm. When Luke asks Han about his lack of belief in the force, Han responds something like "Never seen anything to make me believe there's some all-powerful force controlling, everything." So it's the proverbial word on the street, and all of the people seem to be agreeing that it's the case. I'd be interested in hearing what in the narrative do you think disputes it.

    Bear in mind that when you say "fate comes about by choice" you are actually describing a model of a predetermination. I'm not sure if that's your intent, though.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2018 ---
    Sure. Makes sense.

    It was the only story I've written that was based in the "real" world and had no fantasy/sci-fi/etc elements and it was one of, if not my favorite. Lots of threads tying into the end. She didn't think anyone would like her as she was, so she was trying to make herself someone different for the date, you know like putting on make-up to hide her "flaws" and different things. Then in the end of course the rain had washed it all away and she was herself for the "real" date. I guess I felt it had the ring of truth which is why I probably liked it so much. It's the only story I didn't feel the need to endlessly rework so it had some quality to it that satisfied my fevered perfectionism of the day.

    Yeah, rejection is fine and expected but at least reject the story for a reason that makes sense. Not because destiny is too improbable.
     
    #7 metadude, Aug 25, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,221
    Trophy Points:
    13,167
    Credits:
    7,326
    Ratings:
    +5,168 / 26 / -7
    I like how SW navigates the tension between fate/destiny and freewill/agency and how it leaves some ambiguity around the Forces at work and will/conscious intent.

    It works if, instead of sentience or conscious intent, the "will" of The Force remains an interpretation of the behavior of a natural phenomenon like magnetism or waveforms - like lightening being the result of opposing particles "seeking balance" and the wind being a result of opposing air pressures "seeking equilibrium".
    The Force could influence lifeforms and vice versa and the lore could just be the result of narratives and prophesies projected onto a mysterious natural phenomena!

    Of course it also works as forces of destiny - a turning of fate, a wheel of the chosen ones, or "great cycle" prophecy which ties with a Mortis interpretation.

    Whatever the case with predetermination I think Force ambiguity in this regard is a strength in SW. I like how it works multiple ways just like the "Light and Dark sides" concept works equally well whether stemming from sides of The Force or sides of the user.

    I hope these things always remain open to interpretation within universe and without.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2017
    Posts:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    4,967
    Credits:
    1,920
    Ratings:
    +1,645 / 29 / -27
    Aww...that's such a sweet story! The kind that would brighten anyone's day. I hope you do get to publish it eventually.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Posts:
    835
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Trophy Points:
    7,392
    Credits:
    2,721
    Ratings:
    +1,771 / 57 / -11
    IMHO, in hindsight there are (too) many connections Lucas retroactively created that contribute to a preterministic quality.

    But going all the way back to ANH I really don't see that much hints for "fate" and "destiny" when I look at the contexts.

    HAN Kid, I've flown from one side of
    this galaxy to the other. I've seen
    a lot of strange stuff, but I've
    never seen anything to make me believe
    there's one all-powerful force
    controlling everything. There's no
    mystical energy field that controls
    my destiny.

    The context here is "does the Force control someone's actions?" Kenobi earlier said it partially does (Solo disagrees), but Solo is the only one here invoking "destiny".
    Quite possible that Kenobi smiles because of Solo's (erroneous) assumption that the Force supposedly controls destinies.

    BEN In my experience, there's no such
    thing as luck.


    Ambiguous. That's not a clue that Kenobi believes in destiny, it might just as well be that he'd agree with the Merowingian from MATRIX RELOADED, i.e. it's essentially all about action and reaction.

    BEN They must be delivered safely or
    other star systems will suffer the
    same fate as Alderaan. Your destiny
    lies along a different path than
    mine. The Force will be with you...
    always!


    Admittedly sounds like fate, but who does control it? Kenobi knows that he will have to stay behind for his confrontation with Vader, which is objectively a different path than Luke's and something he knows will be happening. Regarding Luke his path and destiny HAVE to be different.

    VADER Your destiny lies with me,
    Skywalker. Obi-Wan knew this to
    be true.


    I'd say that's were the concept of destiny is revealed to be merely a took utilized by the main antagonist. As we will further find out, Luke's destiny will most assuredly NOT lie with Vader.

    VADER Luke. You can destroy the Emperor.
    He has foreseen this. It is your
    destiny.


    Again, Luke will not destroy the Emperor so there goes "his destiny". Nevertheless it's remarkable that the Emperor has supposedly "foreseen" it (as if that had been predetermined) unless it's a trick of Vader.
    Actually, all the Emperor had said was this:

    EMPEROR He could destroy us.

    Fast forward to ROJ

    LUKE I will not turn...and you'll be forced to kill me.

    VADER If that is your destiny.


    Interesting, perhaps destiny is actually quite a Sith thing.

    EMPEROR It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now
    mine!


    VADER You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight,
    then you will meet
    your destiny.


    EMPEROR Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and
    take your father's
    place at my side!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Posts:
    243
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    1,020
    Ratings:
    +656 / 11 / -5
    Looks like bringing up the idea in Star Wars creates the same kind of discussion as bringing it up in our own experience. That makes it so that any response I might make at this point wants to go where I'm not sure anyone wants to go. Just saying this so no one feels like I'm ignoring the replies. I thought the idea in Star Wars was solid enough to ask the question about, how it affects the apologetics, without it moving in the direction of "real world" experience so that could be avoided; but that's not the case so the thread is becoming something different than I intended. Which is fine. I'm just saying, not sure if anyone is actually wanting to go down that other road, so I'm not sure of responses.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Posts:
    2,778
    Likes Received:
    29,668
    Trophy Points:
    154,567
    Credits:
    3,866
    Ratings:
    +32,478 / 17 / -6
    Funny how heavy ideas can do that, eh? :)

    I think that was partly what Lucas had intended to do, anyway. He saw there was a lack of "spirituality" in life, values were becoming more grey and optimism seemed like a fantasy. Creating a mythos that combined spiritualism and hope, while maintaining high adventure and relatable characters was the intentioned plan.

    Even if we don't agree on real life questions about the existence of God, or spiritual realms unseen, Star Wars makes us question it and look for answers. I personally believe there is one God who has a plan for each and every one of us, and when I watch Star Wars, I can't help but see parallels with the Force and the way I see reality.
    As C.S. Lewis said:
    “If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.”
    When I watch Luke Skywalker struggling with his destiny, trying to figure out what his purpose and mission in life is, I relate to it not only on the most basic "when is life going to get moving!" level, but also on the level of finding spiritual satisfaction and the knowledge of the spiritual things that brings peace and understanding.

    As for me, yes, I see that even in Star Wars things are predetermined, but that's because I see that in how reality around me goes. Sometimes things are fuzzy, sometimes things don't make sense, but that's because we haven't learned to see from other side or because we can't see the future and understand the trials our mythical heroes (and ourselves) are going through. In time things will make sense, but all we need is a little faith.

    I know people may lambast me for my beliefs and how on earth I could see those things in Star Wars, a made up universe with its own laws and rules... but that's part of the reason I like this galaxy from a long time ago: It speaks different things to different people. Perhaps if we could learn to tolerate each others crazy ideas on something silly like this, we could learn to tolerate each others opinions and perspectives on real life topics and beliefs, and from there have meaningful conversations.
    ... but that starts with meaningful(ish) conversations about the Galaxy Far, Far Away....
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    not crazy at all! : D

    and strangely i agree with you and also i don't ~ ha!
    Luke's rejection of Obi Wan's and Yoda's directives has always told me that goodness and sacrifice are choices, not destinies.
    there is a "big picture" in which i believe things require faith--that all works out as it should--but our choices can make that a hard road or an easy one and no matter what there will be suffering along the way because suffering is a necessary part of life.

    sometimes the hard road is us in a misguided fight against what we know we need to do (but maybe don't have the strength to do it), and sometimes the hard choice is taking a risk or making a sacrifice and trusting that it's the right thing on pure faith (like Luke surrendering to Vader).
    but no matter what, the choices impact the "destiny", our growth, the quality of our mortal time, and the experiences of others connected to us on their own journeys.

    i don't believe in predestination per se except in that C. S. Lewis kind of "we're all headed back to the same well at the end of the day" way.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Posts:
    2,778
    Likes Received:
    29,668
    Trophy Points:
    154,567
    Credits:
    3,866
    Ratings:
    +32,478 / 17 / -6
    Nooo! You have to agree on everything I say or you're living a lie! GaahhhH!!

    I think part of the "nit-picking" of these conversations are scruples and differing ideas on what Destiny and Fate are. In fact, I think even the characters in Star Wars argue over what those are!
    Vader:
    Yoda:
    Ben:
    Palpatine:
    The one unifying point they have is that Luke must confront his father. But, for those who see past this event... it is different outcomes and possibilities. The Emperor is convinced that Luke will turn. Vader believes the Emperor is right... Obi-Wan and Yoda are unsure...
    Of course the critical flaws for the Emperor is that he underestimated Luke's will power to do the right thing, and the fact that there was still enough good in Vader to turn back to the Light. But! Through spiritual means he saw a future he had planned, he had constructed... Is that something he truly saw? Was that the Force playing a cruel joke? Even Yoda does not know what the future holds... he knows things are moving and changing and becoming something new... Which I would agree with you, that is shaped by the actions of each individual.

    However, does destiny change, or is just not understood?

    Did Yoda not see an outcome because he has (from my perspective) true wisdom, which does not cloud his visions? Did the Emperor see a future because he was plotting things out, so what he saw was a potential, if X,Y, and Z work accordingly... and he could not see any other possibilities because of his pride and hubris?

    Is Destiny a force that surrounds us and pushes us to make decisions that sitting on our easy chair would seem crazy? Destiny pushes us into unknown places, and destiny gives us the opportunity to make hard decisions.
    Luke was not "ready" to confront Vader in ESB, because he didn't pass the tests in school. But, when push came to shove: "Join me..." he refused. He did the right thing. He passed the real test. His destiny was not to join Vader. It never was. And never would be, even when he and his father converse in ROTJ.
    It was believed that "Destiny" would show Luke and Vader standing side by side serving the Emperor... but Destiny proves that Luke and Anakin would stand side by side against the Emperor.

    Your destiny is partly what you put in it. Make bad decisions, your destiny will probably not have a good outcome... but there is always hope, because even Vader had a change of heart at the last moment. He didn't survive, which is not strictly "good," but something better happened: He become righteous, restored. And even in this "bad" outcome of his death, something better happened because of his goodness: He became one with the Force, something better than living in "this crude matter."

    So, like a thief on a cross or an apostle who thrice denied his savior and king, or being caught in trying circumstances at work where coworkers are cutthroats and blackmailing each other or friends betray and fail you, if Destiny is a work of good, and you hold fast to faith that all things work together for good, even if you recognize the mistakes you make along the way, when you confront your failures, your friends, your coworkers, your enemies, goodness will prevail.
    Doing the right thing is always what we should do, no matter the cost, no matter how hard, no matter how futile it seems. Goodness prevails because it is predestined to ultimately win.

    That is something, I think, we see in the life of Luke Skywalker. His destiny, his confrontations, his triumphs. And that is something we can learn from and aspire to.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    if you mean that destiny is a good work and that goodness prevails because sometimes no matter what (even good) choices you make you might suffer and die horribly, but that's okay because ultimately you will be spiritually fine, then okay we actually agree completely. : D
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Posts:
    2,778
    Likes Received:
    29,668
    Trophy Points:
    154,567
    Credits:
    3,866
    Ratings:
    +32,478 / 17 / -6
    Haha, yes! Also in the sense that destiny is an act of justice. The Emperor made some walloping evil decisions, and life was great for him (aside from the disfigurement, but he doesn't seem to mind), and when destiny acts, his mighty works come crashing down on him, and he has no reward in life and death.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I guess Anakin used to play this song all the time when he heard about the prophecy.

    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 16, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 16, 2020 ---
    I know in the Horus Heresy: Primarchs series, Konrad Curze also believed in fate and that the future he saw in his visions was immutable and fixed. But at the end of the book, Curze had a devastating revelation: that what he saw was just one probability among countless others and all the evil that he wrought, his downfall and descent into madness was all on him.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 16, 2020 ---
    [​IMG]
     
Loading...

Share This Page