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Problems with the Sequel Trilogy So Far...

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DailyPlunge, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    I thought this might be a helpful thread for those of us who like TFA and TLJ but have issues with the trilogy as a whole so far. After two films I think most of my issues are story choices that happened before Rian Johnson started writing the second film.

    The First Order

    The whole First Order/New Republic/Resistance conflict doesn't really make that much sense. 25 years after the fall of the Republic the First Order not only recreates a military out of practically nothing. Even worse they built a super weapon stronger than the Death Star? The New Republic should have been fighting a new enemy and not the Faux Empire.

    The Jedi Order

    One it was decided that Luke left after the fall of Ben Solo I'm not sure there was much more RJ could do with the story. Luke leaving is a huge departure for the character. If Rey goes to the island and Luke is the Luke from 30 years ago it would be bizarre. This trilogy should have been about the return of the Jedi Order. That may happen in the 3rd film, but Rey should have been Luke's star pupil and it would have solved a lot of the issues.

    Han Solo

    I like Han Solo in TFA, but unlike Leia/Luke he was basically the same guy. There wasn't much character development and having him die at his son's hand is a real problem now that there is no final confrontation between Ben and Leia.

    My other complaints are smaller.

    I'm hopeful that with a blank slate Rian Johnson can create something original. Also, Lucasfilm has probably learned their lesson. It's difficult to make a trilogy without a clear concept of where they're going. Having an outline for a 3 act story should be a huge improvement.
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Furthermore the FO doesn't feel like a threat, especially not in TLJ. Hopefully this canges in IX.

    IMO the biggest problem of the ST is the feel. The SW galaxy never felt so small. Everything seems to be very close (planets, characters etc.) This problem mainly exists because of the pacing.
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Part of this is due to how the story has been told so far. The two films take place over the course of a couple of weeks? It might be even less.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    My complaints:

    I know pacing issues are basically a staple of Star Wars at this point (all 9 movies have them), but sweet baby J, let's find a way to get beyond this.

    Starkiller Base. Still hate it. It was easily the worst choice made in any of the new films. Wholly unnecessary and so glad Rian steered so far from even mentioning it.

    The JJ Mystery Boxes. Blaaaah. I get them. I do. But just...too many JJ. Too freaking many. Again, glad Rian ended that shizz.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2017 ---
    I actually don't hate this as much simply because it's different. Does it always work? No. But it's worth trying.
    Maybe they never do it again. But I'm glad they tried it.
     
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  5. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    The sequel trilogy is charismatic, humane, elegant and atmospheric - there are no problems
     
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  6. King Chewie

    King Chewie Rebelscum

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    I agree with your criticism on "where did this First Order come from?" I mean, either (1) it makes no sense that the remnants of the empire should become so powerful after the empire falls; or (2) the galaxy is just really all about living under an empire, they tend to it time and again, which makes one start to wonder - are the rebels/resistance really just terrorists in this galaxy? Like, are they completely ignoring Lockesian notions of government by consent and trying to instill their own form of government in a galaxy that for whatever reason favors empires and dictatorships? If so, I can see why they struggle so much and why no one comes to their aid on Crait. It also may be time for them to start looking in a mirror and asking what it is they are trying to accomplish!

    All that being said, I'm having a blast with the Sequel Trilogy. It feels very Star Wars, even if not all of the elements are making sense. I'm okay with it.

    Cheers.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Oh, and I also forgot to add that I really felt like Rian could have used a tinge (a lot) more subtlety in the whole PETA segment.
     
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  8. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Yeah I agree.

    My idea for the ST was that Luke and the Jedi were banished after the discovery of who Vader was. The Force outlawed so to speak. There was no Empire substitute but a fanatic group of religious Sith loving terrorists lead by Darth Plagueis.

    The film would’ve started with Coruscant being destroyed (suicidal Sith terrorist flying a weapon into the planet core), resulting in the death of Chancellor Leia and Han. They had two kids - one being abducted by the Sith terrorists and the other managing to escape the planet. This “other”, goes searching for Luke whilst the other one is slowly seduced to the dark side by Plagueis. When the Solo child finds Luke he is unwilling to help because he learned about Plagueis and the Skywalker origins - he believes they’re cursed and too big a threat to the galaxy to continue using the force.

    I think this idea would’ve dealt with a lot of the issues apparent with continuing the story into the ST. However, I love what they have done with Kylo Ren and Rey - and the stuff with Luke isn’t that far off what I originally envisioned. It just perhaps would’ve been better to have witnessed the fall of the Solo child and the unrelated heroine could’ve still been a no one who was already connected to the Solo child.

    But look, we all have our “great ideas” and whatever anyone did would’ve been criticised. It’s a difficult thing to do - continuing and ending the Skywalker saga whilst not repeating what came before. I’m just happy I got to be thrilled watching a Star Wars film again...especially after my negative TFA experience.
     
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  9. Mudbone

    Mudbone Rebel General

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    For me, the OT aesthetic imposed on the ST is wearing pretty thin. This is the first of the Star Wars episodes I won't be seeing a 2nd time at the theater.
     
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  10. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    I don't have much to complain so far.
    They nailed with the new characters, at least the leading ones, and for me thats is most important. I like them all: Rey, Kylo, Finn, Poe and bb-8.
     
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  11. Dizagaox

    Dizagaox Rebel Trooper

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    My biggest issue is they've managed to make the galaxy look and feel smaller than the previous two trilogies. There's very little context to the galaxy they're fighting over, and it kinda sucks.

    Episode IX needs to show more diverse planets and aliens and characters. Open on Naboo (if they do a funeral), go to Coruscant, and show what makes the galaxy worth fighting for. Because as it is, I couldn't care less if the First Order won and enslaved everyone.

    Also the lack of improved technology between the OT and ST is vile. I know in real life it's to make $$$ from nostalgia, but it is disgustingly shallow. The lack of inspired design and aesthetics needs to change.
     
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  12. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    First Order power was not very plausible from the begining.
    It was however
    at least mysthically projected and somehow explained by presumed mythical Snoke who,supposedly was master behind it all.

    Now that Snoke is Dead, all this FO plausibility is crumbling like a house of cards.
    More so,
    Kylo
    is indeed a child with difficulties in development of personality(immature for his age), and to be worse, his unwilling aid, general Hux has been in the Last Jedi further developed in a sence of incompetent imbecile.

    All
    of this makes basic strategic situation....
    ...that this FO has taken over larger part of the Galaxy, unrealistic even for children.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2017 ---
    The realistic start
    of ep IX would be that kylo and Hux reaorganised First Order into a Centristic radical sect in the galaxy, which has support of many Systems, but is also rejeced as a legal goverment even by centristic(right side) planets

    , and unable to controly majority of the galaxy, hawing serrious problems with the funds.

    If they start ep IX with Kylo
    sitting in a kings throne like Conan, people will move away from this giberish.

    [​IMG]
     
    #12 McDiarmid, Dec 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
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  13. Mudbone

    Mudbone Rebel General

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    Great post! My thoughts exactly. You, sir, hit the nail right on the head. Plus you touched on something I've been meaning to mention- the FO just chases the Resistance from place to place. I know the Empire did that with the Rebels, but the Empire seemed so much more evil than the FO. We never get an idea how the rest of the GFFA is responding to the FO.

    The ST just seems so barren and not really fleshed out. It lacks the richness of the previous movies. I mean, there must be three (3) aliens in the Resistance. The ships are just variations of previous ships, probably even more clunky in some cases. And the planets.. sheesh, pretty boring and uninspired locales for a GFFA.

    Even the new characters don't leave much of an impression apart from maybe Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.

    Everything you said is spot on.
     
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  14. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I have to see the film again to further qualify this perception, but, after having see TLJ once, I was left with the impression the First Order seemed smaller and more incompetent than ever.

    At the same time, the relatively small Resistance suffered a punishing diminishment.

    With the Supremacy flagship damaged and no SKB, it remains to be seen what kind of antagonist the FO will make for in IX.

    I'm wondering if DJ's point ("It's all a machine partner. Live free, don't join.") goes toward somewhat of another potential Wizard of Oz scenario (something once wondered about Snoke): if those who build those war machines for both sides (First Order, Resistance) are the real enemies.

    Perhaps the "Master Codebreaker" we never met has a more prominent role to play (perhaps along the lines of the Merovingian in The Matrix). He certainly has an interestingly mysterious entry (with a tinge of a Ready Player One aspect to it): http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Codebreaker

    I mentioned in another thread that it might be interesting in IX if Kylo leaves the FO, and adding to that: perhaps after learning this himself or if he finds being "Supreme Leader" is not nearly the power he craves.

    Imagine if Kylo "goes rogue" and sets off on a post-First Order ruling where he virtually declares himself the king of the galaxy and punishes any system, through the Dark Side, who does not bow and recognize his rule.

    Then imagine if, after perhaps Finn is able to set off a mass awakening by working with Rose and TJ to undo some of the First Order brainwashing, enough to start a major revolution within the First Order.

    The defectors join the Resistance, and together they, with Rey, endeavor to counter Kylo's growing grip over the galaxy:

    --but with the real mystical master conflict(s) being Force-driven between him and Rey....
     
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  15. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Why did they bring the old trilogy cast back ?

    To despict them as losers and kill them in every movie ?

    They should have start with fresh new characters and a new story. The story of Anakin was over and it was useless and risky to want to follow this timeline.

    They spent two movies to break the old myth, it wasn't necessary, they should have build a new one from scratch.
     
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  16. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    This certainly can be a valid observation / criticism.

    One the one hand, I actually felt lucky to get a chance to see Luke, Han, and Leia again.

    Then when I learned Han left Leia, and then Luke left everyone, I felt so concerned, and it did enter my mind to question why these characters were reintroduced in the Sequel Trilogy.

    In terms of pure marketing, they did help serve to be a "bridge" -- familiar faces old fans would instantly identify with and new fans would learn to appreciate, if not love, once they experienced the full enchantment of the original trilogy.

    But, these days, there's a trend to diminish or defy the prospect of "happily ever after" endings. As of ROTJ, the galaxy was freed of evil, and Luke was the last Jedi and triumphantly so, achieving victory without resorting to the Dark Side.

    In a way, it was likely only to be "downhill from there" if we were to follow these characters into the galaxy's "shattered Empire" and uncertain future, even though the Emperor had been eradicated.

    And so, the Sequel Trilogy seems to follow a fairly realistic extrapolation of one set of possibilities: what happened if Luke, Han, and Leia fell on sad times. And they did.

    And we have what we have now. And it's nowhere near the worst it could have been, as I see it.

    I think, in time, more people will come to understand and appreciate why things worked out the way they did.

    Right now, it's still very much the unmet expectations which are still stinging many fans. Let some time pass, see it a few more times, and perhaps minds and hearts will change.

    Acceptance of things as they are is essential at this point. What could have been is no longer.

    But we still have IX. :)

    But, I will wait until IX to reach a final assessment. Still so much story to be told, and we do not yet have all the information for this part of the saga.

    As Leia would say, "It's not over yet."

    (leia)
     
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  17. TheTruTru

    TheTruTru Rebelscum

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    TFA was basically a rehash of ANH. Starkiller base. Really?

    Using multiple directors has led to a disjointed story. JJ sets up a bunch of questions in TFA (who is Rey, who is Snoke, who are the Knights of Ren, where did the First Order come from, what's the deal with Luke's lightsaber, etc) that RJ doesn't answer (except for Rey which brings up another issue)

    Rey is a great new character & Daisey Ridley is an amazing actress, but how the hell is Rey so powerful in the force with no training when literally every Jedi/Sith in canon required years of training to do what they do.

    Tying into the point above, the first two movies appear to take place over the course of a couple weeks...tops. This means that Rey went from believing the force was a myth to performing mind tricks, defeating Kylo, defeating the praetorian guards, & lifting massive boulders in an extremely short period of time. She also witnessed Kylo murder her psudo father figure Han & like a week later begins to empathize with him. Finn goes from serious injury to perfectly fine. The list goes on. All of these issues could have been solved with a short time jump.

    Snoke was completely pointless, nothing more than a plot device to install Kylo as the big bad. Why not just have Kylo be the big bad from the jump and have him be corrupted by force ghost Palpatine or something? But nope. Instead we get this mysterious new character that they built up as "more powerful than Vader & Palpatine" only to kill him off after maybe 10 minutes of screen time. Worthless.

    The Finn & Rose story line in TLJ was a complete waste of time & could have shortened the movie by 30+ minutes if Holdo had just told Poe her plan. But hey, at least we got to meet stable boy.

    Other than that, I love it!
     
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  18. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    ever since TFA came out, and probably even before it came out, i really disliked the design of the ships. the PT and the OT deliver on a gradual change of design and i've been missing that in the ST so far. same goes for interesting new planets and locales; nothing has really felt new so far.

    as much as this may sound silly, i kind of wish there were more political scenes to better educate us on where the galaxy is at as a whole. even something like the scene in ANH where the moffs are discussing the Imperial Senate was enough to give the audience a macro perspective on what all was going on.

    Starkiller Base was an ok idea, i don't hate it on paper, but i disliked the way they showed several planets blowing up in one shot. how the heck is that supposed to work? i'm not usually the type to want literal or realistic, but that scene was off. ultimately they could have gone a different route entirely and i would have been happy.

    i know this has become something of a fan favorite, but i dislike the design of Kylo's light saber. when the first images leaked of him and his saber i was certain that it was some fanmade garbage and that they would never use a design like that. ho hum...

    the remnants of the Empire becoming the First Order is ok in my book; it helps tie in Kylo Ren's aspirations to become Vader. however, the Resistance as being a segment of the Republic makes far less sense to me. just have it be the Republic vs the First Order.

    there's not much else i'm irked by in this trilogy. the PETA scenes in TLJ were a bit much, but that's probably a topic for another thread.
     
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  19. JohnnyL REACTS

    JohnnyL REACTS Rebelscum

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    A strange thing has happened to me with these two films.

    With TFA, I remember right after seeing it that I liked it but had some big issues with it. I would say my opinion directly after was mixed. Only after 2nd viewing and subsequent viewings did I start to really like and appreciate it.

    Whereas with TLJ, I really liked it a lot after first viewing. A lot, with some quibbles here and there. But, the more I think about it and peel away the layers, the more I start to dislike it. Complete opposite I am finding..
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    you do realize, that this is EXACTLY how it is with Obi-Wan and Yoda if you watch the movies in episodic order?
    Both go from heroes to batshit crazy hermits living in seclusion hiding from the force and just letting the Empire take over and complete the Death Star
     
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