Questions after watching TROS

I like to imagine that Luke just tossed the saber away in the ocean, like Ben did later on in the story.

 

I do.

Who was Mrs. Palpatine?

Was the son of Palpatine Force sensitive or does it skip a generation?

How exactly did Palpatine create Snoke?

Is Palpatine dead for good this time?

Why is throwing people down holes so ineffective in Star Wars?

What exactly were all those scary hooded figures in the throne room?

Why didn't we get to see Kerri Russel without the helmet on?

 

I've would like to know what do you think about Dark Rey scenes.

It was created by Rey's imaginations/fears of succumbs to the dark side? That was the only answer that comes to my mind.

 

I liked it. It was basically another version of Luke's fight in the Degabah cave.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 24, 2019 ---

I don't think its supposed to make sense. Its a silly scavenger hunt trope similar to what we see in the Indiana Jones and The Mummy movies.

 

If I had to guess, probably to avoid another Vader/Luke situation. Have one kill the other before they take your place, you not only discover which is the stronger of the two, but more firmly cement your reign as there would be any love bringing someone back to the light to throw you down a pit.

Either that, or he knew Kylo would resist and figured it’d be a clever way to get Rey there, cause it’s Super Manipulative Palpatine. If Kylo failed, Rey would come to him and he’d offer her the ultimatum like he did in the film. If Kylo succeeded, he would just use him since he might be the stronger vessel then.

 

I Thought this, but on my 2nd view I did notice the Co-ordinates threepio gave when in Sith mode does mention something about south side, so maybe it was taking them to that location and from there the dagger then pinpoints the exact location

 

This is why the movie is a disastrous mess. A well written story wouldn't leave so many unanswered questions and loose ends. Although it's what I expected from mystery box JJ and the dude that wrote duds in Superman vs Batman and Justice league. TROS was entertaining but poorly paced and edited by a 10 year old.

 

They got way bigger problems than poor editing if they hired a 10 year old. My goodness. There’s child labor laws, y’know! Shame on you, Disney. Shame!

 

Because all Sheev had left running his plan was "general pride" - he was too proud to stop trying to hurt others even when his own deeds were hurting him to the point of his own destruction (same reason he didn't stop shooting lightning at Mace even though it was turned back on him to his own hurt and disfiguring). It was win or go home. Thus the danger of having general pride at the helm. This is a cautionary tale and this is brilliant symbolism of the entire Skywalker saga embodied in a single moment of time.

See, back at the very beginning of the saga, Sheev began a plan to enslave, hurt and destroy others. He was a master manipulator, even to the point of turning Anakin the chosen one to the dark side to become his puppet. But lo and behold, here at the end we find the family body of Palpatine being redeemed through the benevolent, liberating, healing acts of the Skywalker family body. All of Sheev's intents to hurt and destroy all come flying back into his own face, at the hand of his own family body - Rey. The Palpatine family body is balanced by the force, to the destruction of the dark side within it. It all blew up in his face, and purged the darkness from the family Palpatine.

But did you notice that Sheev himself was a puppet? See how he is attached to a large arm that is directing his movement? Turns out Sheev himself was just a puppet of the the will of the force. The force wanted him to do everything that he did and though his intent was to hurt and destroy, the intent of the force was to heal the wound, the imbalance, of the old Jedi order and redeem the Jedi order itself from the same pride that crept in, as was said by Yoda in the PT and by Luke in TLJ. The force was guiding everything the whole time.

 

Hmm, you’d think maybe the Force could find a way to settle that without the untold suffering of billions of innocent people over the course of decades. But we might not have gotten that killer laser light show at the end. So, I guess it was worth it.

 

Okay but that's more of a "I question the culpability of the prime mover" statement. It doesn't actually mean anything in relation to the actual narrative of TROS. In other words, if we have a story about Batman beating up criminals, and you respond "I think Batman could've found a better way, I don't condone vigilantism" that's a personal judgement of a philosophy - but it's not really relevant to understanding the narrative.

But if you're interesting in discussing the morality of suffering in a predetermined system, I'd be open to it in perhaps the General Discussion or somewhere appropriate. I'm not sure what the off-topic rules are on the forum.

 

I guess it’s more a tongue-in-cheek way for me to say I respectfully disagree with your appraisal of the narrative thrust. That this saga, at its core, is about how the darker impulses of our nature (fear, anger, hate) can dissuade us from noble endeavors (no matter who you are or what your goal). That those temptations can be systemic and negatively reinforced. That we must transcend those bounds to progress rather than answering negativity with more negativity.

The Force is just an abstract notion meant as an allegory representing that duel nature that’s present in all of us. We all possess equal potential for great good or great ill. It’s our mindset and course of action that determines that, not destiny. That’s the lesson I believe we’re meant to take. Not punishing all of society for the prideful woes of some collection of religious weirdos at the whim of some ill-defined god machine. But that's just me

Back on topic - ultimately this comes down to what JJ himself admitted in fairly recent interviews: this production was super rushed. That this movie makes any semblance of sense at all is a genuine miracle

 

Visual dictionary says some dude found it in a Bespin basement. Turns out it dropped down a different hole from Luke.
Not an interesting story whatsoever .

 

When you say "your appraisal of the narrative thrust" I'm not sure what you're trying to say. What is my appraisal, as you understand it? Are you meaning that my appraisal is that the force has a will? Or that Palptine was a puppet? That Palpatine set in motion events that would lead to the destruction of the dark side of the Palptine family, and redemption of the family?

I don't disagree with that.

Well, in the narrative the force is real, right?

I don't disagree, but this seems to me a half truth, as it were. While Sheev is responsible and chooses to destroy, his actions are still compatible with a great intent beyond himself (i.e. the will of the force) which uses his actions for healing. In epsiode four Vader intends to destroy Kenobi, that is his choice. However, his choice actually creates a result that is beneficial for Luke.

Again, that's just an ethical judgment. It;s not really relevant to understanding the narrative, and you're not demonstrating that all of society is being "punished". That's a begging of the question of intent.

But what you're saying here is really just a philosophy, but you're not supporting your philosophical conclusion with the actual narrative. It's a question of, showing the math.

Yeah but your conclusion doesn't follow from your statement. Meaning "super-rushed" is a statement of timing, not a statement of the quality of the narrative cohesion. Personally, I work my best when super-rushed. My finest results have come from procrastinating to the last second, then furiously working under pressure.

At any rate, I'm really more interested in genuine discussion about the narrative of the saga and its thematic relations and such, and not diverging into ethical philosophies, or assumptive criticisms. I got enough of that with TLJ and I'm really just, not interested in the least. There's a whole internet I'm sure filled with people who would love to oblige. It's just, I'm not one of them. I'm sure you understand.

 

I mean the conclusion you’ve come to where the Force is essentially an amoral super id unconcerned with the human collateral damage laying in its wake like some Lovecraftian elder god, indifferent to the plight of mortality.

Star Wars, at its core, is a morality tale. It’s a parable that uses fantastical circumstances in order to communicate key values to impressionable youth. When George Lucas says ‘it’s for 12 year olds’, that’s what he’s saying. Just like classical myths and legends, the point is to instill an ethos and philosophy that’s practicable for the audience to employ in their own lives in practical, real world terms.

When I see the perspective that the Force (a metaphorical concept for the hidden potential in all of us) simply wants what it wants despite whatever reciprocal misery that might affect, I don’t see the lesson we’re supposed to learn in that. That bad s**t happens and there’s nothing you can do about it? But that’s OK because it’s in service to some greater good that may or may not be apparent? I just don’t get the perspective. I can't imagine that nihilistic outlook was the intent. So, I disagree with that appraisal.

In the narrative, everything is real. But the narrative doesn’t exist for the sake of itself. It’s for US, the audience - or supposed to be anyways. Its quintessential elements are representational and significant beyond simply being random stuff that happens in a vacuum. We’re intended to walk away with something meaningful and applicable separate from the story.

What that misguided choice leads to is Luke making a better choice of his own. Not because of it, but in spite of it. It’s a lesson he learns, that we then learn.

Star Wars IS ethics and philosophy. That’s why it exists. To excise that from the narrative is to eradicate the narrative. It’s the foundation this house is built on. Take it away and the whole thing collapses. It just becomes a pedantic exercise in assemblage at that point - a meaningless distraction.

Anecdotal evidence is great and all, but it’s inherently unprovable. Reaping favorable results from lack of preparedness doesn’t then invalidate the worth of preparation. Those “finest results” might have been even better had more care been invested. You’ll never know.

The point being: a lot of the logical inconsistencies and dangling plot threads of this finished product probably could have been sussed out with the application of more time and attention. That is, of course, also unprovable. What happened is what happened.

Weird coda, man. You’re the one that brought it up

 

So does broom boy even matter? Will he be forgotten in the stables of time on canto bight?

What is Palpatine's son's name? Bob Palpatine? Who was he? Who was her mom? Karen Palpatine? What did they do? Was Bob Palpatine abandoned because he had no power?

 

It's probably the first time in a long time that the force skipped a generation.