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Qui Gon in AOTC

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Obi5Kenobi, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    In AOTC, while Anakin is killing the Tuskens, it cuts to Yoda meditating. We Hear Qui Gon Jinn say, "Anakin! Anakin! Noooooo!"

    I'm not certain of what is happening in this scene and to whom.

    Does Anakin hear Qui Gon?
    Does Yoda hear Qui Gon?
    Does anyone hear Qui Gon or is this is just Qui Gon's reaction from the netherworld of the force?
    Does Yoda know exactly what's happening or just sense something bad is happening, like Obi Wan and Alderaan?

    Any thoughts on this?
     
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I don't recall that scene specifically, but here's my guess as to what happens.

    At some point, Qui Gon met the Shaman of the Whills and learned the secrets of life after death, as detailed in Yoda's final arc of The Clone Wars. However, we also know that he was unable to progress to the point where he could fully manifest himself, like Obi Wan and Yoda eventually do with Luke.

    In this case, I'd imagine it's Yoda reaching out in reference to the disturbances he senses, and finding a surprise- Qui Gon's residual energy (perhaps specifically in how it ties to Anakin himself). While Yoda would not have time to focus on this on the even of the Clone Wars, he would eventually return to the idea near the end of the war, and travel to the Well of the Force himself.
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I’ve always had the impression that Lucas himself wasn’t totally sure how that scene was supposed to be interpreted. We know Qui-Gon communes with Yoda by ROTS. We know from TCW that he’d been trying to reach out for a while. This is more of him reaching out to Anakin though.

    You’d expect if Yoda understood the specifics of Anakin’s reaction, it would be a pretty big d@mn deal, right? He straight up murdered people out of rage. “The darkside clouds everything” though. The old muppet maybe only caught the gist and not what actually happened - eaves dropping and only hearing bits and pieces. Something like that maybe.
     
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Agreed. That's why I feel more like Yoda was maybe probing Anakin a bit due to his concern, and ran across this echo of Qui Gon, that almost kinda dirstracted him.

    Though you're probably right, and this is beyond what Lucas intended.
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Yoda’s reaction to Mace’s curiosity was “Pain, suffering, death I feel. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain.” This gives the impression that he was only getting a read on Anakin’s emotional state, not what he was actually experiencing. So something similar to Obi-Wan with Alderaan like @Obi5Kenobi said.

    We know from Claudia Gray’s short story ‘Master & Apprentice’ that Qui-Gon, by the events of ANH, is able to fully materialize to OB1. So it was a slow process for him getting to that point given what was established in TCW. A disembodied voice is how OB first connects to Luke from beyond. My guess is that this is something similar. Qui-Ghost Jinn is seeing what Anakin is doing and reacting to it. Anakin can’t hear him, but Yoda, snooping into this ‘disturbance’, can.

    . . . . . . . . . or not. I think I’ll go ahead and have this be my head-canon until I’m proven wrong again :)
     
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  6. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    The scene has already cut away from Anakin when we hear Qui Gon so we don't see if Anakin reacts or not. I'm not certain that Yoda actually hears Qui Gon or not. I got the impression that Yoda just happened to be meditating when this occurred and wasn't necessarily actively snooping so much as reacting to the disturbance. But I am but a non force user and not knowledgeable in such matters...
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I'll throw you a curve ball and say that Lucas, an aficionado of pure cinema filmmaking, probably wanted you to determine the interpretation of this scene. ;)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  8. GingerByte

    GingerByte Simple Man

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    None of them hear it imo.

    Just like the Tusken Raider cries we hear when Palpatine mentions Anakin's mother dying at their hands in ROTS, it's added for dramatic effect. While Qui-Gon was trying to reach out to Anakin, no one heard it. Yoda doesn't even react to the Qui-Gon line.
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Interesting take.
    The impression that gives though is that Anakin is remembering his dark act - remembering the cries of those he massacred out of vengeance. It has relevance to the character in direct relation to the scene. If Qui-Gon is only heard by us, then that would be some odd screen language. Or ‘unconventional’ at any rate.
    Reminds me a bit of Yoda’s line in ESB: “Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future. The past. Old friends long gone.” Seems like Yoda hearing Liam Neeson in regard to Anakin wouldn’t be totally remarkable. He’d maybe think he was hearing a memory and not an actual attempt at communication from a spirit.

    If a ghost speaks and there’s no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? If it’s Star Wars, I guess so :)
     
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  10. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    Yoda heard it

    From the novelization:

    It was Qui-Gon. Yoda knew that it was Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon was dead, he had become one with the Force! One could not retain conciousness and sense of self in that state; one could not speak from beyond the grave.
    I don't know if the novel is still canon, but as noted above, there is also an episode of The Clone Wars that states that Qui-Gon has learned the secret to maintaining his identity after death through the Force, and that he has revealed himself to Yoda.

    Additionally, in ROTS, Yoda says:
    "…on your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you. An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the Netherworld of the Force. Your old master. How to commune with him I'll teach you.”

    My perception/opinion is that Anakin does not hear it because he is blinded by rage.
     
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    No novels released prior to 'Heir to the Jedi' in 2015 are considered canon at this point.

    There's also a deleted scene in ROTS (that I think this passage is based on) that has Yoda being directly visited by Qui-Gon.

    Edit: sorry, that's from the AOTC novelization?
     
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  12. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    Okay, maybe not canon, but it was made concurrently with AOTC and authorized by the makers of AOTC. That's close enough for me. :D

    It is still strongly implied by TCW and ROTS that Yoda heard it, even if it is not stated as explicitly as in the novel.
     
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  13. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    My interpretation is that each individual has their own specific echo or resonance in the force. Kind of like the quasi metaphysical concept of the Music of the Spheres. The event on Tatooine is a change in one part of the melody. When one musician in plays the 'wrong note', people listening to the song take notice.

    Consider Yoda's meditation as like listening to a live orchestra on a cosmic radio. If the musician keeps playing wrong notes and that is picked up by others, the focus and tone of the song is completely changed to the melody of the errant musician or disharmony is created as the musicians playing the original song and those playing of the song of musician 'Y' compete for dominance in the audio-sphere.

    Neither is ideal.
     
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  14. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    If you think about it, just the cut to Yoda meditating is actually already a powerful clue.

    I mean, can you imagine if, in the middle of Qui-Gon’s exclamation, the movie cut to Jar-Jar flailing about? (Just kidding, luv ya Jar-Jar.)

    Or conversely, what if Qui-Gon were removed, and they just cut from Anakin slaughtering Tusken Raiders to Yoda meditating?

    Qui-Gon’s voice and Yoda’s meditation have to be connected. If you separate them, the scene really doesn’t make sense.
     
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah, that's kind of an interesting grey area.

    There's a lot in these films that contextually relies on outside material, some of which was produced alongside the films themselves. While, by definition, these things are not canon, all intents that seemingly went into their appearance in the film were co-produced with canon sources.

    For instance, consider how much of the details of TROS are covered in the visual dictionary. Were we to ever get a canon purge once again and VDs not count as canon, that's a ton of TROS lore that would be potentially lost, even though it seems much of it was specifically designed alongside the film.
     
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  16. delph

    delph Rebelscum

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    There could be a connection between Yoda and Qui Gon. At least I believe so. But unfortunately the prequels do not explain this. In fact, like other people mentioned before, in ROTS Yoda tells to Obi Wan to find his old master. But after that nothing has happened. Obi Wan goes to Tatooine and the original saga begins. I don't know why Qui Gon doesn't appear as a ghost.
     
  17. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    Qui-Gon’s ghost is audio only, sort of like Obi-Wan in ANH. Either Obi-Wan or Yoda was the first to figure out the visual component.

    From TCW:

    Yoda: How are you here?

    Qui-Gon: I am a manifestation of the force. A force that consists of two parts. Living beings generate the living force, which in turn powers the wellspring that is the cosmic force.

    Yoda: Show yourself, can you?

    Qui-Gon: I cannot. My training was incomplete.​

    So technically, Qui-Gon can’t appear (visually) to anyone.

    Qui-Gon also can’t communicate with Luke because Luke didn’t know Qui-Gon when he was alive.
     
  18. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    Not sure about the very last statement. Rey heard the voices of maybe a dozen dead jedi that she never knew.
     
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  19. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    This is actually based on a statement someone else made recently on another thread. Most people feel that these “voice cameos” are different from Force Ghosts. This is supported by the fact that some of the voice cameos (like Mace Windu and Kanan Jarrus) are by characters that have never been shown as ghosts.
     
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  20. jitara

    jitara Clone

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    I’ve always had the impression that Lucas himself wasn’t totally sure how that scene was supposed to be interpreted. We know Qui-Gon communes with Yoda by ROTS. We know from TCW that he’d been trying to reach out for a while. This is more of him reaching out to Anakin though.
     
    #20 jitara, Mar 14, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2020
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