1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

R2D2's map

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by theborgv, Dec 21, 2015.

  1. theborgv

    theborgv Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Posts:
    133
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    707
    Credits:
    1,079
    Ratings:
    +416 / 53 / -9
    how is that the Resistance has a big chunk of the galaxy unmapped, and BB-8 just happens to have a piece of the puzzle? Hasn't the galaxy been mapped with hyperspace lanes all over?

    JJ mention in a recent interview that the idea was that when Artoo plugged in to the Death star, it downloaded the Empire's map files.

    My idea is that Artoo's memory has never been wipe since the Clone Wars. And that he went to low-power mode to analyze all that intel inside.
     
  2. Ommet

    Ommet Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Posts:
    25
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    227
    Credits:
    565
    Ratings:
    +41 / 0 / -0
    The map wasn't a generic map of the galaxy, it was a map to a specific thing in that galaxy. It would be like having a treasure hidden somewhere in your home town, and the only way to find it would be by putting a jigsaw puzzle of your town together.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Darth Fink

    Darth Fink Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2015
    Posts:
    240
    Likes Received:
    309
    Trophy Points:
    4,002
    Credits:
    1,023
    Ratings:
    +542 / 3 / -3
    Agreed this was a little weak but something I can look past. I guess Luke intentionally separated the two files and gave one to R2 and the other to Lor San Tekka.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  4. 77th

    77th Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Posts:
    528
    Likes Received:
    4,235
    Trophy Points:
    13,017
    Credits:
    5,527
    Ratings:
    +4,694 / 49 / -20
    There are No Maps of the Galaxy, since there aren't fixed positions in the cosmos.

    Everything on the Universe is moving incredibly FAST, and mean everything on the know and unknown Universe. Every single Star, Planet, Asteroid and even Galaxies and galaxy Clusters are moving in relation to another thing that is moving on itself and around other thing, and so on and son on. In the Universe there are positions, with fixed GPS coordenates, just possible paths of movement but even those change a lot depending on the behavior of the surrondings.

    The Galaxies and the Planets are moving at KM per Second thru space and time, these are Bullet Speeds.

    Considering Earths speeds: Spinnig Speed - 0,5 km/s Revolving Speed - 30 km/s

    Solar System rotation speed around the Center our Galaxy, the Milky Way - 250 km/s

    Milky Way rotation speed aroun the center of our local group cluster - 300 km/s

    How do you Map something that 1 second after is at least 300 km apart from where it was?

    JJ tried to explain in a recent interview that R2 actually awaked on his own felling the disturbance in the force (kinda lame?), this actually work if they hinted that R2 was remotely awaked by Luke (a better solution than surprisingly awaking in the right moment after 30 years).

    Either way this is only entertainment, and Star Wars fun will always work if its FUN. Personally i prefer the Map situation to the Lightsaber flying thru space, despite considering the Map Solution and the StarKiller base the minor parts of a great movie.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Posts:
    3,455
    Likes Received:
    5,776
    Trophy Points:
    15,522
    Credits:
    7,022
    Ratings:
    +8,494 / 65 / -17
    The map was Luke's route and location. Having a different map of the galaxy wouldn't help them... they needed this one.
     
  6. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    2,482
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    14,367
    Credits:
    6,819
    Ratings:
    +7,330 / 416 / -296
    My Theory: Luke put most of the map into R2-D2, then "Force Comatosed" R2 with the "Jedi-Droid Mind Meld" (!) from his mechanical hand (flashback scene)
    Then the missing piece was given to Lor San Tekka, the "old ally" as a safeguard
     
  7. Aquila

    Aquila Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    1,642
    Credits:
    959
    Ratings:
    +455 / 42 / -25
    There are no maps of the galaxy? Wow, thanks for the info, I had no idea that all precise maps showing the exact location of celestial bodies (stars/nebulae/galaxies) I'm using for my sky watching through telescope are totally worthless.
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Dr. Kenobi

    Dr. Kenobi Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Posts:
    97
    Likes Received:
    157
    Trophy Points:
    992
    Credits:
    822
    Ratings:
    +258 / 14 / -4
    Lor San Tekka was not given the map by Luke, the opening crawl says an old ally has "discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts."
     
  9. 77th

    77th Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Posts:
    528
    Likes Received:
    4,235
    Trophy Points:
    13,017
    Credits:
    5,527
    Ratings:
    +4,694 / 49 / -20
    What you have are Stellar charts for this location only, Earth North or South Hemisfere, in another planet they are absolutely useless. And we still need several for our own single spot, acording to stations changes, and all that charts are evolving becaming useless in decades time, the charts we use today will not be valid for 200 from now because the sky changed.

    It's only possible to determine charts because every single celestial bodie is moving in order to the others movement, from HERE we can see whats moving with or around us for a short, incredibly short, period of time. You can't lay a Michelin Guide Road Map to Universe, not even based on every single stellar chart we could know.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. Atin

    Atin Clone

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Posts:
    4
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Credits:
    334
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0
    Has the FO the same part of the map as R2D2? I think Kylo mentions something in that direction.
     
  11. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Posts:
    3,455
    Likes Received:
    5,776
    Trophy Points:
    15,522
    Credits:
    7,022
    Ratings:
    +8,494 / 65 / -17
    Yes they do.
     
  12. Aquila

    Aquila Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    1,642
    Credits:
    959
    Ratings:
    +455 / 42 / -25
    From what we seen - the map in TFA was just a hologram with location of (few chosen) star systems in whole galaxy. Now - everyone who's interested in astronomy knows that everything moves and we can only have reference points we chose. But this movement, though quite shocking when expressed in our standard units like km/s (or mph/h for our american friends), is still quite slow when we look at galaxy as whole. It takes centuries or even thousands of years for stars to change their relative distance to each other so much that it could force us to make new maps. Stars move fast, but distances between them are so great that it takes a really long time for them to move so much that it could be seen as a real change in the sky or map. And of course I see no reason to think that such technologically advanced society can't track all this movement, predict it and update all maps accordingly. Just as we can look at our entire planet from orbit and map all movements of continents - I imagine that SW technology gives them the ability to look at entire galaxy from different angles and determine the exact relative position of every star in it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. 77th

    77th Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Posts:
    528
    Likes Received:
    4,235
    Trophy Points:
    13,017
    Credits:
    5,527
    Ratings:
    +4,694 / 49 / -20
    I felt in love with astrophysics whatching SW movies in the cinema when i was 6-7, i wanted to kown everything about the universe from that days on, but i still prefer my passion over Star Wars instead of all physics in the Cosmos, really taking pride in viewing all of those non Physics on screen because they are so fun and they utterly amaze me.

    Charting the Universe, even with amazing technology would be incredible dificult even if possible at all, okay to know a line movement we just need two points of it and we will know every single time where the movement is or goes, but to curves and hiperboles we would need at least 3 points as much farder away from each other we could get in order to try to set the curvature, but then all that moves at seconds times and representing all of that in a single piece of the Universe is pure madness, not even to think about the whole thing.

    To express the complexity of what i'm trying to say, let's look at the simple hidrogen atom

    [​IMG]

    This is our best photograph/representation of it, a big spot in the centre (the Nucleos in RED) and then millions of tiny blue dots, (the electron). Hidrogen atom only has 1 electron but at any second he can be in any one of those blue dots. Our biggest elemest is the "Ununoctio" with 118 electrons, just imagine the mess of that representation.

    We can map our planet and every single rock planet in the Universe because the changes hapening in those are so slow, were talking of Km per millions of years, and we actually have physical references to map things out.

    (in the Hidrogen Atom pic above there would only one blue dot and moving so slow that we could evn cartographate him)
     
  14. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    2,482
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Trophy Points:
    14,367
    Credits:
    6,819
    Ratings:
    +7,330 / 416 / -296
    "Blue dot..." *thought in Carl Sagan's voice* ;)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Aquila

    Aquila Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    1,642
    Credits:
    959
    Ratings:
    +455 / 42 / -25
    Atom is a bad example, because in regard to smallest objects like atoms and electrons a bit different laws apply (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle for example). Also you still overestimate the speed of changes in the relative positions of the stars in the galaxy. You seem to believe that stars are moving so fast and change their relative position so fast that we have to change all our sky maps used in astronomy every year, and that every year sky look completely different than it looked like in previous one. No, that's not the case. Look here - there's a video showing how Ursa Maior changed in past centuries and how long it takes:

    http://lunarplanner.com/StarsProperMotion/UrsaMajor/index.html

    It clearly takes a looooooong time, much longer than a human lifespan for stars to change their positions so much that it could be really important in regard to navigation. Sure, it would be important for interstellar travel (when a star moves 10000 km/h through space then if you jump there at 6AM - the planet is exactly in front of you, but when you jump there at 7AM using old data - the planet would be 10000km far away from you). But in such simplified star map like we seen in TFA - it would have no impact on anything.
    You clearly underestimate the size of galaxy and distance between the stars. When two cars pass each other at the street (each moving at 50km/h) - their relative distance and bearing changes quickly and is very noticeable. But when you look at two cars - one in New York and second in London - when they are moving at 50 km/h - their relative distance and bearing doesn't change very much - sure, it changes from 0 up to 100km/h, but the distance between them (NY-London) is so great that it makes a very small difference when you look at world map with their locations determined by GPS. If you had such world map - you'd have to look at screen for hours to notice that they moved at all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. 77th

    77th Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Posts:
    528
    Likes Received:
    4,235
    Trophy Points:
    13,017
    Credits:
    5,527
    Ratings:
    +4,694 / 49 / -20
    The hidrogen Atom was trying to establish the complexity to produce and to interpretate the amont of data involved.

    The question in all this question is the SCALE of everything compared to us, in our scale we can compreend all the planetary changes and routes in our Earth Map, understanding a Galaxy Map is just ridiculous, aside from the movement you got stars "Life" issues, they die, some birth, while others just kill everything in their path, you can even get complete star systems destroyed from way out of their Galaxy (Gama Ray Bursts come to mind nut there's more).

    How can anyone estabilish a map to a destination that will get destroyed/changed, imagine starting a road trip from NY to LA, but after leaving NY your destination goes supernova and ceases to exist or worde becames a neutron star or a black hole and will kill you as soon you get close to him?

    I liked your example of the 2 cars driving at 50 km/h but can you map all the cars in England, reflecting their movements and diferent masses/types? I think NO, but it would be easier to map the moving cars of England that estabeleshing a RouteMichelin to the Galaxy.

    I really don't mind the scientific mistakes/forgettings in Star Wars, i'm a scientist but above everything my inner child craves for the SW adventures. My favorite thing in Star Wars are Spaceships and space dogfigths despite knowing for absolute sure that there's absolutely no chance what's so ever of that being made by any human.
     
  17. DamionGraff

    DamionGraff Rebel General

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Posts:
    454
    Likes Received:
    657
    Trophy Points:
    3,842
    Credits:
    1,409
    Ratings:
    +1,159 / 112 / -44
    No.
    As JJ said (and mentioned right above your post), R2 downloaded the Empire's archives when he plugged into the Death Star in ANH. He therefore had a map of the entire galaxy. It was enough information to let him complete BB-8's map by filling in the blanks. Kylo Ren mentioned in the movie that the FO had done the exact same thing with the Empire's archives; they only needed the missing piece contained by BB-8.
     
  18. Aquila

    Aquila Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    1,642
    Credits:
    959
    Ratings:
    +455 / 42 / -25
    Again it seems you overestimate the speed at which galaxy noticeably changes - events like supernovae are very, very rare in our galaxy. It's not like there's a lot of stars on the sky and in the next years half of them exploded and do not exist anymore. Sky (deep sky objects, not planets etc) changes extremely slow. That's why people from previous centuries usually thought that sky does not change at all - because sky we see today is almost exactly the same people saw 2000 years ago. And while certain stars may go supernova anytime (for example Betelgeuse in Orion is probably in its final stage) - it still may take them a lot of time to actually "die" (recent estimates are that Betelgeuse will become a supernova sometime in the next 100 000 years...). I know it may be difficult to understand, because almost all people I know clearly underestimate the size of the galaxy (me probably included), but galaxy is HUGE. It's INCREDIBLY HUGE. And that's why even "fast" changes on local scale (like stars roaming through space at amazing speeds) are almost unnoticeable on the galaxy scale in short (human lifespan) periods of time.

    And regarding tracking all cars in England - plant a GPS device on all of them, make sure GPS satellites work all the time and "see" all cars, prepare computers with enough power to process all data and there should be no problem with that. It all depends on quality of measuring tools and enough computing power. Right now we can quite easily track all or almost all planes on the sky, and there are thousands of them every day on the sky.

    I also don't mind that Star Wars is no "real" sci-fi (compare Star Wars spacecraft's motion in space to Battlestar Galactica's for example - in SW they fly in vacuum of space like planes in atmosphere while in BSG it looks realistic, or famous "parsecs" - in reality it is used to measure the distance while in OT it is used as a unit for time measurement ;) ) because when watching SW I simply enjoy the show, nothing else.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. DamionGraff

    DamionGraff Rebel General

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Posts:
    454
    Likes Received:
    657
    Trophy Points:
    3,842
    Credits:
    1,409
    Ratings:
    +1,159 / 112 / -44
    But those things only take place on large enough time scales that they would be irrelevant to intertstellar travel during a human lifetime (say, ~80+ years).

    It would be more likely that LA and NY would disappear than a star would turn into a supernova or a black hole; cities exist on timescales of hundreds of years (NYC) maybe a couple thousand at the most (Rome); stars remain the same on time scales of millions-billions of years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_continuously_inhabited_cities

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution

    The point is that in a stellar map, the destination almost certainly *won't* get destroyed or changed...not during the lifetime of a human being. It is far more likely that a city would be destroyed or changed (e.g. earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc).
     
  20. Darth Fink

    Darth Fink Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2015
    Posts:
    240
    Likes Received:
    309
    Trophy Points:
    4,002
    Credits:
    1,023
    Ratings:
    +542 / 3 / -3
    Why did the Empire's data have a gap the same "shape" as Lar San Tekka's data then? Not sure we'll ever get an explanation for this in the next film.
     

Share This Page