"Random" Rey.....

1. Stop making things up.
2. And yet what happened in TLJ was what most of us thought was suggested in TFA...
3. Is that why many people are complaining that it was too different a Star Wars film? The plot, characters and cinematography are unique for a SW movie.
4. I disagree. IX will show why.

 

I saw the movie.

I’m discusding the two ways this could go.

Redemption for Kylo= unoriginal

Rey defeats Kylo = adds nothing positive to the Skywalker saga.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2017 ---

Rian has gone on about how much freedom he had, and has talked about how he had to figure out where to take it, and now J.J. has to do the same, etc.

I’ve seen plenty of people complain about how unoriginal it was. More original than TFA? Sure. Some cool ideas? Yep. But overall plot, to how the film starts, to the throne room scene, all unoriginal.

Reylo is gross and I feel really bad for daisy if she ended up signing up for twilight in space.

 

I would agree about Reylo except Reylo failed. Rey flew in thinking she would see Ben come to his senses, she would find her "belonging." Instead he rejected the light. And offered the "You mean something to me" in other words you can beling to me I can define you. She rejects this and sees him for who he is broken and evil man whom won't stop. That's why once she has not taken him up on the offer they start battling over the sabre.

Redemption is a reoccurring metanarrative in thousands of stories I think how its done would make it original or not. But there is no guarantee that it will happen.

If Ren is defeated then Rey Luke's last student who has been embraced by all of the big 3 now and Yoda will go on to be the rebirth of the Jedi. A rebirth given by Luke burning out his life to give Rey and the resistance hope. No genetics needed. She is bound up narratively with the OT characters (all the ST characters are).

Rian's comments about how much freedom were way overblown. First by TFA haters that predicted Rian being the second coming of George. And now by people who don't see the cohesive narrative in the trilogy. Rey is no one as huge numbers of people predicted or suspected, Luke was always waiting in despair on the island to die as people figure long before it was confirmed in leaks. Kylo and not Snoke being the Big Bad of the new trilogy has been postulated when there were only leaks before TFA.

 

Of course he’d say that - but are you honestly telling me he didn’t speak with JJ about what he thought the story was? Are you telling me LFL didn’t give him the central ideas of where the story will end up? Again, if this is the case then the whole Rey Random, ReyLo theories were lucky guesses! Besides, a recent article that showed Lucas’s early ideas suggest that the story we saw play out over TFA and TLJ were planned from the get go.

As for you disgust at ReyLo, I take it you were equally as revolted by Luke’s compassion for his evil father?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2017 ---

ReyLo is misleading. It’s ReyBen you need to worry about!

 

Luke having faith in his father is a lot different than Rey having faith in some random murder.

From not being able to choose your family, to the fact that the idea of Luke’s father was already important to him before we even met him, to the obvious difference between family and romance, to the message that sends both women and men, I could go on and on.

 

For me, so far it's gone pretty much as I expected and where it should be.

 

Ben isn’t a random murderer. He is the son of Han and Leia. The former being the first person Rey looked upon as a father figure. He is someone, for whatever reason, she has become deeply connected to and has colosssion for (as he does for her). He is someone who holds the answers to her past. He is the person who could save the galaxy. He is Luke’s nephew.

That’s how Rey operates. We saw it with BB8. She’s very moral. More moral than Luke was. It could be why the Force chose her as Ben’s equal. It needed to be someone very compassionate and selfless, despite of her tough life.

You also dismiss the fact that Rey is attracted to Ren. Something she is probably afraid of herself and doesn’t like to admit. But she does. So there is that as well.

Exactly. Same here (except Snoke’s demise and Ren’s ascension- though many did suggest that would happen on these very boards). It strikes me that those who enjoyed the movie the most were the ones who were intellectually prepared for the “surprises” that came. Your positive and insightful posts being strong indicators for this.

 

I'm not sure on demographic reception motivators, but I appreciate the compliment.

Regarding Snoke.
Well, firstly, let me clarify that I didn't have it all mapped out. Instead, I knew what kinds of images and action motifs should happen; e.g. we'll get a Bespin and Jabba scene somewhere, but it's not like I knew it would render as Bight or that the neutral betrayer would be used the way DJ was, but I knew those things would be there in some form.
It's like watching a child grow; you know the stages and general things you're going to get, but the personality of that child delivers details which are interesting to see the results of application of each of the stages.

So I knew we had something where either Rey or Kylo would have to face off against our Emperor and one would either damn or redeem themselves in the square-off.
I didn't know Kylo would kill him and yet in doing so damn himself further; that was a great rendering!

Cheers!
Jayson

 

D

Don't kid yourself... if she had defeated Snoke, 99% of supporters of this story would be praising the decision because of how original it is and finding ways to justify it. I'm not blaming them either, they just want SW and are willing (and fortunately are capable) to suspend their disbelief to get more SW stories. Then there are fans who valued the lesson of training to get better (Luke on Dagobah and every Jedi before having a master for years before they reach Rey of TFA level powers, let alone TLJ).

Those who like the ST are able to get on board with this theory that the Force empowered Rey because of Kylo, because Snoke said something to that effect. They are also able to ditch 6 movies and countless cartoon episodes and books of universe building so that this movie holds up. The Force works in mysterious ways answers the rest of the questions. There's nothing wrong with that, as this is all fantasy.

But there's also nothing wrong with fans wanting an explanation and challenging the writers to at least try and make sense between the ST and the PT and OT and all the other cannon that's out there. To these fans, you can add something new, but they want an explanation as to how it relates to cannon.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2017 ---

Both Luke and Anakin's powers seemed more instinctual. Luke literally had a blank slate to work with, being the first movie. Anakin was "born from the force " and "the chosen one". They didn't get training at the beginning, but Anakin had practiced and participated in pod racing (and I presume other types of racing) before (and failed and learned from those failures). So maybe no Jedi training per say, but over time he honed his skill (short time based on his age, but again, chosen one and at least there was some time... and please, I hate defending the PT in general and PM as a whole lol). So a powerful force sensitive able to subconsciously amp up his physical attributes as in reflexes but only in certain instances.

As for Luke, I never read his shot down the DS's port hole as him guiding the missile. I saw it as, in rpg terms, subconsciously using the force as a force sensitive to enhance his dexterity so he can make that shot. In ANH or in ESB, Luke wasn't a fully trained Jedi, I'd argue in ANH he wasn't even a Jedi but a force sensitive. Which is what Rey is until she meets Luke to start her on the Jedi path. To that point, I thinks it's arguable that Luke was even a Jedi until he first meets Yoda. Before that he was probably a force sensitive who practiced with a lightsaber so he can use it without loping off his own appendages, as well as knowing of it's existence enough to try and explore what else he can do (there is about a year between ANH and ESB I believe). Only when he meets Yoda does he truly start down the path of a Jedi with some form of basic training 101. I'd guess that between ESB and ROTJ they met again (I'm pretty sure there was mention of this in Legends books, but they're no longer canon, so who knows if that's true now), at least that was my assumption (there were years in between after all, and his master was known to him), plus he had that encounter with Vader. You do get the sense that Vader is toying with him, maybe that's how Sith train? So more training for Luke, albeit by Sith instead of Jedi. In any event, even if Vader doesn't count, there are years of training where we see gradual progression, with possibly the best Jedi teacher of all time, who knew timing was critical and would use every scrap of knowledge and trick to get Luke where he needs to be.

Rey in TFA would also only be a force sensitive. In TLJ she meets Luke and BEGINS her training, crash course 101 in Jedi BASICS. You get the impression of time, and that the training was intense when Luke was with Yoda. This wasn't a recluse who'd run away and second guess training Luke. Yoda contemplated the risks, but once convinced, he looks dedicated to his instruction. Luke on the other hand runs from Rey and is conflicted about training her for her whole whopping 3 days. If they had fast forwarded 3-5 years (heck, give me one year and I'll give her benefit of the doubt... I want to believe) for Ep 9, then I could have believed that with the books she managed to train herself to somewhere akin to Luke in ROTJ. But as the story stands, if they don't retcon the story to include some blocked memories of Jedi training in her youth (which I'll grant is still possible, maybe her memories are still jumbled from when Kylo mind raped her, there hasn't been a heck of a lot of time that's passed in story) then her whole story arc laughs at the established history of or the SW universe in regards to the force and how one grows within it.

But if they don't come up with something to explain her mastery of the skills of Force powers, than Rey has become as powerful as Luke and Anakin within a week, possibly more powerful and skillful (even Yoda couldn't lift that much rock, and "For 800 years have I trained Jedi, keep my own council on who to train." and that's just him as a master.) and that's laughable within the context of the SW universe.

I just think if there is no explanation, than Rey sets a precedent. In the future we could face a Jedi master (Sith Master, as the dark side is easier and more seductive) days after being introduced to us as just learning the existence of the Force. Which brings me to a whole other idea. It is heavily implied in the OT that the light side takes time, and the dark side is the "quick and easy path". Can't get much quicker than a week or so's time. So another way they can go to make this more different is that both Rey and Kylo are dark force users.

Again, my opinion.

 

This what what Lucas said he hoped would not happen when he sold it to Disney.

But for all his inside jokes and self-deprecating nods, Lucas is still protective of the space saga he helped create. “There’s more to it than just spaceships,” he says. But his biggest concern about the ever-expanding universe? That “the Force doesn’t get muddled into a bunch of gobbledygook.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.va...5/11/george-lucas-star-wars-jar-jar-binks/amp

 

Don't be fooled by the "Rey is a nobody" trope that is going on everywhere.
They WANT us to believe that it doesn't matter.
I'm sure her origins will be explained in due time, as will Snoke's

Patience people, Rome wasn't build in one day.

 

Rey is the blank slate. She defeats her doubts easier than Luke did.

There's a reason Yoda didn't want to train Luke. He doesn't let go of physical assumptions ("No. No different, only different in your mind."). His mind is always elsewhere. ("Never his mind on where he was, what he was doing."). He brought his fear into the cave, described as a failure by Yoda. ("Only what you take with you."). As opposed to Rey, who states that she wasn't afraid as she entered the cave. Both are presented with truths, but Rey's mind was open to it. Luke paid the price by losing his hand. Not that it's Luke's fault, he's been lied to his entire life, lol - by Owen, Obi-Wan, and even Yoda wants to hide the whole truth.

If fans want to reduce the Force to experience points, and not lessons of self-discovery - the whole point of the hero's journey, then of course fans are going to have problems with this stuff. Too bad. I couldn't care less because SW has been a fantasy mythological soap opera morality play.

Luke didn't have to be great at anything to make the right decision standing over his father with a lightsaber to the throat. "You will know, when you are at peace." He becomes the hero in that moment because of a choice, not because his midichlorian count.

 

Concerning Rey lack of training and previous characters being trained as Jedi, maybe the question is what was the training about exactly?

What is a Jedi? Does he train for years to lift rocks, read minds and wield a lightsaber? Or is the training more about how do you behave as a Jedi and how to use your powers while following the Jedi dogma? In TLJ, Luke seems to say that lifting rocks and fighting has nothing to do with being a Jedi. IMO, him throwing away the lightsaber was also him clearly saying that while the lightsaber is iconic of a Jedi, it’s in fact pretty worthless when it comes to actually being a Jedi. Remember, him bringing his lightsaber in the cave led to failure. Using his lightsaber against Vader led to failure twice. Only when he rejected the saber did he become a true Jedi. In the prequels, the Jedi were pretty obsessive about lightsabers, and they failed big time.

Also I remember that in AOTC, Anakin complained that Obi-Wan was holding him back. To me that means that the Jedi training is not about learning force trick at all, but all about following the Jedi code. They are frightened of the dark side, and they deliberately pace their students to protect them from the dark side. But it was never shown anywhere what an untrained force sensitive person could do with the force.

Luke’s training in ESB is mostly about becoming less impulsive and concentrating on the task at hand, about believing, about learning patience and focus. In the handstand lesson, he can already lift multiple objects quite easily. He fails because he is easily distracted. With the X-wing, he fails because he doesn’t believe in the force.