1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Old Threads Reappearing - The main SWNN site is currently undergoing a refresh. As a result some old threads may reappear in The Cantina while background maintenance is being carried out.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

SPECULATION Rebels S03 will take our understanding of the force to a new level

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Rebels' started by Star Dude, Aug 30, 2016.

  1. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0
    If you haven’t already, check out this interesting interview from Dash Star with Freddie Prinze Jr.

    Short Version (there’s also a full length version of that interview available.)


    There is a part about the force in it that got me intrigued quite a bit! “Deep stuff” if you will.

    For one part, in the latest trailer we meet the Bendu, described as a neutral force being in the middle between light and dark, Jedi and Sith.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bendu teaches to Kanan in part is that a lot of that we come in contact with is empty, it’s simply the force. It’s what we bring to the relationship that is reflected back on us. If we bring fear, if we bring anger – that’s what’s going to be returned to us. That’s the middle, right?


    That’s like, what is it, the old EU Praxeum, where they use like – Kyle Katarn use Force Lightning but he never did it though anger therefor it was just – it was a force power but it wasn’t, you know, it didn’t have to come from anger. So it’s like “I use force lightning for good”.


    It’s a different representation of it. So a lot of these epic creatures and things that you will see, you know, they are all the force. And they are not good or bad so they simply reflect what these other people fighting the fight, bring to the table. And that is a huge part of season 3 that I hope people dig what I’m telling you because this is like deep stuff… the representation that you get is next level.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So the living and the cosmic force are basically neutral and react just to a wielder, reflecting his/her inner dark or light.

    Do the Jedi and Sith make up their own force reality in a certain way?

    What does this say about individuals that have both the light and the dark side in them by a large degree, such as Kylo Ren?

    Will/can grey Jedi become canon?

    At least it explains the mirror effect and Yoda’s teaching in the “magic tree” on Dagobah in ESB. And Luke’s force chocking the Gamorreans when entering Jabbas palace in ROJ.

    Back in the old days, most sources (not the movies!, see above) placed force powers in one of the camps. Neutral ground was hard to find.

    I wonder what the story group will have in stock force-wise in the future, and what is originally based on GL’s ideas.

    Edit:
    OK Guys, shame on me - I realized to late that this topic was already started in the General Rebels Talk thread. Mea Culpa!

    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/general-rebels-talk.478/page-63

    Maybe the impact on the force still justifies a separate one for discussing that specific topic.
     
    #1 Star Dude, Aug 30, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
    • Great Post Great Post x 6
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Laggamaroo

    Laggamaroo Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2015
    Posts:
    950
    Likes Received:
    1,750
    Trophy Points:
    5,817
    Credits:
    2,983
    Ratings:
    +2,853 / 46 / -28
    We have learned a lot more about the Force in Rebels, certainly the Sith (loved that temple!).

    I'm probably most curious about the Bendu character and what repercussions that has; I'm betting they are introducing it as a possible out for why Kanan and Ezra aren't in the OT story without having to kill off the characters.

    I have to say though, this series is focusing a LOT on the Jedi/Sith issue rather than the formation of the early Rebel Alliance. Hopefully they don't get too bogged down portraying the Force related characters at the expense of seeing the Rebellion beginning to gel.

    The use of the phrase "May the Force Be With You" as a slogan for the Rebellion illustrates their belief in the Jedi, so there has to be a strong connection there.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. Mcbee

    Mcbee Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Posts:
    177
    Likes Received:
    341
    Trophy Points:
    3,952
    Credits:
    905
    Ratings:
    +500 / 3 / -3
    My personal take on the force was always something like that: the force itself is neutral, it's only the sentient creatures that weild it that give it malevolent or benevolent traits. I.e. the force is a reflection of its user.

    However, I've read somewhere, long ago, that Lucas was no fan of this neutral force concept...can anybody shed some light on this?

    All this to say, i think a neutral force opens up story possibilities, but if George was explicitly opposed to the concept, i hope story group doesn't run with it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0
    That was great man! Peeling some skins from the force-mystery onion, especially the enigmatic Sith (when it comes to available canon material)! I like that very mucho!

    Thousands of years old Sith weapons of mass destruction and cross-guard lightsabers, Ralph McQuarrie designs re-used, Malachor, and so on… that stuff gets me excited.

    I also like how Jedha in R1 will contribute to the overall picture.

    GL’s emphasis on the ying & yang duality of light and dark are quite prominent throughout his SW works. On the other hand, I was always wondering why Luks was using that force choke in RoTJ if it was only associated with the dark side. Although at that moment, it was the right method to keep the escalation level low with the Gamorrean Guards. Force pushes and other methods might have brought forward more violence (ok, take out mind control).

    With the Bendu, the neutral aspect will manifest and being set I would say. And I enjoy that approach, as it gives so much more possibilities and facets for that galaxy far far away.

    If I remember the CW Mortis story arc correct, the Father was the balancing aspect between light and dark (“A family in balance. Day with night. Destruction, replaced by creation."). Could he considered to be neural in the force? Then Lucas would have paved the ground for more to come.

    Also, the five Priestesses from the CW lost missions arc as manifestations of the living & cosmic force could possibly be considered to be neutral force-wielders/spirits.

    If the story group will pile up on the mythology of the force, it will be interesting if they unearth GL old concept (and refine it) of the shamans of the ancient order of the Whills, standing above and beyond the Jedi and Sith orders. Watching and observing from afar while a familiar looking R2 astromech unit dictates them the story of the Skywalker Family and all events of galactic history that happened around them during their time period, to be written down in the Journal of the Whills, 100 years after Endor and 70 years after TFA.
     
    #4 Star Dude, Aug 31, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Posts:
    687
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    Trophy Points:
    7,542
    Credits:
    2,538
    Ratings:
    +1,856 / 19 / -2
    I wish I could find the reference...

    I recall from the last couple of years an interview with some of the creative talents within the story group that each of the trilogies would focus on a different aspect of the Force. I'm probably hacking it up but it was basically that the PT was about the Force in action, the OT was about the Living Force, and the ST would be about the Cosmic or Unifying Force.

    We already had the Mortis arc and the Priestesses which changed our understanding of the Force, and now Rebels will have the Bendu. It makes me wonder if Rebels is setting up the story line for why Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. My suspicion is that Kanaan represents the old ways and is having experiences and new insights which he passes on to Ezra "Bridge"er. Ezra is clearly interested in using the lessons of the dark side as a weapon against the Sith. By the time we get to the OT, we have Yoda teaching Luke about the Living Force, and Luke clearly struggles with the Dark Side himself. The Cosmic or Unifying Force, based on what we see from the season 3 trailer, would lead us to believe that there really is no Light or Dark side, only how the Force is used what matters.

    Remember that JJ said Kathleen got him on board with the question "Who is Luke Skywalker?" I think this means that we will see a different Luke, a different Force User, and what is being done with Rebels will help us understand that. It won't be a prerequisite for the vast majority of moviegoers who will have never watched Rebels, but it will add depth and complexity to the story for those of us who have.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0
    Man, I wish I could give you the "Great Post" sticker 5 times! So much input, so much to think about ...
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  7. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Posts:
    830
    Likes Received:
    1,064
    Trophy Points:
    7,392
    Credits:
    1,816
    Ratings:
    +1,700 / 32 / -10
    I'm curious about the female Sith responsible for whatever happened on Malachor. Perhaps Talzin was a Sith before she founded the Nightsisters?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Original Original x 1
  8. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0
    Buddy, you got me with the “Bridger” picture right there!
    (Yesterday evening I was sitting in a pizzeria reading your post on my mobile, waiting for the take-away, thus the short answer back then)

    On the sideline, R1 adds now a real accessible place for worship the force for the common folk with Jedha, and inventing a caste of Warrior Monks. I wonder if some of the EU aspects of the Dai Bendu went into them.

    Also with TFA some new aspects came up on the horizon – The Church of the Force and a being like Snoke, not Sith nor Jedi. And using an apprentice that combines both dark and light aspects in him. I guess both “classic” orders would have tried to exorcise the opposite side each.

    I liked the Nightsisters witch magick as a new way to explore the force a lot. I understood from Talzin "I am not a natural Force wielder like the Jedi or Sith. I use dark magick to achieve power". The cult of the Nightsisters don’t really delve into the force to use it, but create rituals and artifacts around to manipulate it, not unlike voodoo. Thus, the teachings of the Sith would have granted Talzin much more power and direct access to the force then her inherit magic did. The powers of the Nightsisters where quite different but very cool and intriguing the whole way.

    But female Sith will rock! The Story group and also the design department already tested the concept them multiple times since the beginning of the PT, e.g. the Sith Witch for TPM before Maul were Talzin was based on, Palpatines apprentice in AoTC that was replaced by Dooku and later was used for Ventress. I wonder when/if the Twi’lek Sith drawn for TFA and replaced by Kylo will show up somewhere.

    TPM
    Maul01.jpg

    AoTC
    ConceptFemalsSithAoTC.png

    TFA
    ConceptFemalsSithTFA.png
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  9. Darth Malkovich

    Darth Malkovich Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Posts:
    662
    Likes Received:
    1,094
    Trophy Points:
    4,892
    Credits:
    1,736
    Ratings:
    +1,915 / 41 / -24
    Love this thread. I've been a Gray evangelist for some time now and have wanted the saga to go that way since i heard Luke was looking for the first Jedi temple and remembering the Je'daii order from the old EU. Maybe the emergence of other force traditions is the catalyst for 'balance', more than just the light and the dark, but the gray and all shades between. Maybe Maz Kanata will turn out to have links to the Bendu or some other as yet unknown force tradition.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0
    Ah, the first Jedi temple and Anh’Cho! And the neutral force user Maz! I completely forgot those in my list of added value from the new sequel trilogy for the force mythology!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,787
    Likes Received:
    15,159
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,057
    Ratings:
    +26,502 / 845 / -253
    I've never liked the concept of "magic" to help with the force because, to me, it seems like the easy way out.
     
  12. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Posts:
    4,320
    Likes Received:
    34,957
    Trophy Points:
    161,027
    Credits:
    34,262
    Ratings:
    +42,262 / 44 / -17
    From SW Insider, I'm sure he said this at Celebration:

    Capture.JPG
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Informative Informative x 3
  13. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,787
    Likes Received:
    15,159
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,057
    Ratings:
    +26,502 / 845 / -253
    To me this sounds like the story group is trying to relay the force into a literal religion because it feels like partially that it delves into certain aspects of Hinduism and maybe even Buddhism although the Jedi were inspired by monks
    .
     
  14. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0
    "Maybe even Buddhism"? :)

    When you say ”monks” you hopefully do not refer to Christian (medieval) monks?! “Sōhei“ and “Yamabushi” monks would make for a better reference.

    The force itself was designed by GL as a nondenominational religious concept, "distill[ed from] the essence of all religions", premised on the existence of God and distinct ideas of good and evil. Lucas said there is a choice between good and bad, and "the world works better if you're on the good side". So both Christian and Buddhist beliefs have influenced the force concept.

    The works of George Lucas is strongly influenced by Japanese cinema. The first script for Star Wars borrows heavily from Akira Kurosawa’s story in “The Hidden Fortress”. Also his “The Seven Samurai”, “Sanjuro” and “Yojimbo” make a reoccurring appearance throughout Star Wars history. The story group just builds on these foundations that GL made in the first place.

    For example, the strict geometric designed imperial symbol is based on the concept of the classic Samurai family crests, a “kamon”.
    kamon.jpg

    And when we speak about Jedi’s, it gets even a bit more defined:

    First of all, the name “Jedi” was derived by George from the words “Jidai Geki”, a period drama, samurai-era soap opera on Japanese TV Lucas enjoyed during his stay in Japan during the late 1960s.

    The code of the Jedi (and partially the Knights of the Sith as they were called it the first scripts), was based on the bushido, the way of the Samurai. Also the spiritualistic elements of the Force have heavy leanings towards its teachings. The Jedi clothes & hairstyles, the fact they wielded swords and broadly acted in a similar peacekeeping manner across the galaxy are all based on the Samurai.

    Samurai Kimono design for Jedi / ANH (Obi-Wan)
    jediSamurai.png jediSamurai_02.png


    ANH helmet concept for a Knight of the Sith inspired by Samurai armor
    VaderSamurai.jpg

    And it does not stop withy the OT.

    Original PT concept art for all Jedi during the republic period, inspired by Lukes RoTJ outfit and again based on Samurai/Yamabushi style clothes and hair styles
    JediTPM-2.png JediTPM.png LukeSamurai.png


    Samurai kimono/hair dress legacy in the TFA concept art
    jediTFA.png

    And I'm not even talking about the Zatoichi/Kanan connection (yet) ;)


    Edit: Early on, it was considered that Obi-Wan Kenobi should have been played by the guy below, Toshiro Mifune. (He plays the samurai general Rokurota Makabe in the Hidden Fortress) How “exotic” none-western style can it get?
    Mifune.jpg
     
    #14 Star Dude, Sep 6, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,787
    Likes Received:
    15,159
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,057
    Ratings:
    +26,502 / 845 / -253
    lol yeah no I am taking about literal japanes samurai style and budhist monks as they, as you said, are based on the old japanese serials combined with flash gordon from what GL grew up with as a kid
    .
     
    • Wise Wise x 2
  16. Kyber

    Kyber Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2016
    Posts:
    68
    Likes Received:
    263
    Trophy Points:
    872
    Credits:
    941
    Ratings:
    +355 / 2 / -0
    I'll begin with an Ahsoka quote: "My experience - just when you understand the Force, you find out how little you actually know."

    I don't think the Force is easy to explain, but I'll give it a shot. And so y'all know, I don't think there is one definite explanation to the Force, and there shouldn't be.

    The Force is connected to and used through emotion. If you can imagine a flashlight, the battery is the Force, the light bulb is an individual's Force-sensitivity, and the lens/glass the light goes through is emotion. One part cannot work alone. The Force has infinite and tremendous power. The light bulb or the individual determines how powerful the Force can be through them. Jedi use the Force through neutrality, peace, a lack of emotion, selflessness, and positive emotion, while Sith use the Force through anger, fear, negative emotion. The lens' are different, but there is only one Force.

    The Dark Side is the "short and easy path". It is a quick way to become powerful, but in no way is it easy to control. Sith discipline themselves as much as the Jedi do. In my opinion, the Dark Side can take a individual's Force-sensitivity to the next level. For example, I believe if a Jedi Padawan were to use the Dark Side, he would have the strength of a seasoned Jedi Knight, but at the expense of losing control of himself. A Light Side wielder can achieve the same level of power if not more as a Dark Side wielder, but it takes longer. That is probably the biggest con of being a wielder of the Dark Side. You are granted incredible, destructive power, but it becomes a hunger that cannot be satisfied and can drive them to madness. The Dark Side is alluring, seductive, and corrupting enough when you haven't used it, but when you do, it's a different ball game of temptation.

    That is why when I see, ''Well, why can't they just use both? Why aren't there more 'Grey Jedi'?" My opinion of what a Grey Jedi is, is different. Joleee Bindo from Kotor I is a Grey Jedi. He doesn't wield the Dark Side, but he is somewhat disillusioned with the Order and separated himself from it, while still following the Jedi way for the most part. Mace Windu, while seeming to be as much of a mean person as a Dark Sider, isn't a Grey Jedi because he still is very much a part of the Order.

    My response to my previous question would be, I think you've gravely underestimated the Dark Side's ability to corrupt a person. It isn't easy to be a wielder of both sides, nearly impossible, less so both. Do I think it is possible? Maybe. But I believe very, very, very few individuals would be able to keep the Dark Side at bay whilst wielding the light. A lot of us don't have the discipline to make our bed every morning, heh. I think wielding both does not make one stronger, but weaker, as you haven't committed yourself to the power of one side.

    The Light Side of the Force allows someone to retain their identity. While the Sith are controlled by one's passion, the Jedi are controlled by their compassion and eagerness to safeguard life. Both can be exploited, but I think Jedi are more easily exploited. A Jedi can achieve the same power if not more as a Sith but it takes much longer. In addition, their powers are much more passive. As one example, Jedi wield the Force to passively throw someone against a wall, not choke. Jedi use the Force to heal, not corrupt. So on and so forth. The largest pro to being a wielder of the Light Side is being able to retain your identity. As I've said, the Dark Side is corrupting and when it's done with someone, there won't be anything left or extremely little of who you once were.

    So... is there a middle ground? Yes. I think there's many. The only example I can think of is the Nightsister clan. Their powers lean towards the Dark Side, but... it isn't the Dark Side, exactly. The Force is channeled through nature, not emotion. It is an exploitation and corruption of nature, granted. But that is the large difference. While Jedi and Sith's 'lenses' are emotion, the Nightsister clan uses the worst aspects of nature.

    Remember: different lenses produce different results (powers).

    Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm impressed if you read it all. It is TL; DR. XD
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
  17. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0

    Hello Kyber,

    welcome to the Cantina! Great that you joined the discussion, especially with such a great post.

    Enjoy your stay!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    939
    Likes Received:
    30,959
    Trophy Points:
    152,567
    Credits:
    27,823
    Ratings:
    +32,310 / 2 / -0
    In the interview of US Today with Tom Baker, he stated that the Bendu will be an inexplicable life force, greater than the dark and the light side.

    For those who haven’t seen it yet: The clip for the upcoming season 3 provides a scene between the Kanan and the Bendu.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mup7aH5LK_Y

    What do you think, will these scene happen in something like a dream vision for Kanan like when being knighted by the Jedi temple guard, or will he visit a real place?

    Does anybody think this owl-like creature on the shoulder of the Bendu is the exact same as the one guiding Ashoka to the afterlife, or just the of same species? These creatures seem to be mythological and somehow linked to the force.
    BenduOwl.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Grand Master Galen Marek

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Posts:
    21,444
    Likes Received:
    100,802
    Trophy Points:
    176,317
    Credits:
    46,207
    Ratings:
    +114,541 / 339 / -131
    It could be same species,
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Darth Malkovich

    Darth Malkovich Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Posts:
    662
    Likes Received:
    1,094
    Trophy Points:
    4,892
    Credits:
    1,736
    Ratings:
    +1,915 / 41 / -24
    I enjoyed your post but I disagree in part. I do agree that it is more difficult to wield both light and dark force powers, but I don't think it is as impossible as you make out. The forbidding of dark side teachings by the Jedi order was likely after thousands of years where there was only 'the force'. I think we should differentiate between skills that are from the dark side, and the teachings of the Sith who were a cult with a specific doctrine that the power of the darkside should be used for personal enrichment and power. It is these teachings that will corrupt any jedi, not necessarily the use of anger alone as a lens through which to challenge the force. And, we have seen Luke Skywalker himself force choke Gammorean guard in RotJ. Ahsoka spoke of revenge in TotA Rebels Season 2 finale. And now we have this figure of the Bendu cropping up. I am of the opinion that the future of the Jedi is grey.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...

Share This Page