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Reducing the backlash by making snoke into the prime jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by zazeron, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    Yes...but making him the prime jedi...AFTER what happened to him in TLJ will feel less impactful than if it was revealed during TLJ.

    Better to make snoke into the apprentice of that sith spirit from the ART OF THE LAST JEDI book and set up a spirit Darth bane as the true villian of the ST.

    And use the evil prime jedi as a standalone villian for a game of thrones esque star wars TV show centered on revan.

    The prime jedi can be the night king
     
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  2. TheBBP

    TheBBP Jedi Commander

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    Damage to the Snoke character? Do you know something that we don't? The only way there could be damage done to his character is if we knew something about him and it was wrecked. Considering we knew nothing the only "damage" would be felt by folks who engaged in the self-hyping of the character.
     
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  3. Malus Dagoth

    Malus Dagoth Rebelscum

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    The problem that @zazeron misses is that this trilogy ultimately cares little for worldbuilding, history, its own setting and how it affects it characters.

    There are plenty of examples of this. One can see this when Luke asks where Rey came from and regards Jakku as "nowhere". The place where the Galactic Civil War reached its bloody conclusion is not "nowhere". The New Republic is barely, if at all, fleshed out, the First Order rapidly goes back and forth between all-encompassing conquerers and upstart wannabe tyrants despite the opening crawl saying that they are now the supreme power of the galaxy (which makes the chase concept of this film utterly laughable in execution), the Resistance is an mindbogglingly stupid faction from the outset, etc.

    Then, there are the even more egregious examples. Why is Luke so convinced that the Jedi of old's teachings have no value for him and that their order no longer should exist when he barely even read the contents of their texts (they weren't page-turners, amirite?! lolololololol) in order to arrive at such a conclusion? What were the philosophies that Luke meant to cultivate in his new generation of Jedi Knights? How did his teachings differ from the Jedi of the Old Republic? What were the flaws inherent in his teaching that allowed for one such as Ben Solo to take such a dark turn? What did Snoke even leverage in order to ingratiate himself with Ben and convince him to join him as a high-ranking member of the First Order and his apprentice? How did the First Order ultimately differ in ideology in order to combat the Empire's weaknesses? How did Luke continually fail Ben Solo (and possibly the rest of his apprentices) as the default grandmaster? What drove Snoke? Vengeance? Greed? Ambition? Who knows?

    Almost none of this was actually touched upon in any real capacity which is generally awful, seeing as how these things are ultimately relevant to the characters' development and ideas going forward throughout the trilogy. They have thematic weight that could tie to and satisfyingly conclude both trilogies. However, like I said before, they care little for this and opt for cheap laughs, shock and awe storytelling that will age about as quickly as milk and an approach to characterization that is tied to a shoddy and underwritten script. All of which are astonishing flaws to have in a film that is 2 and a half hours long. When it's that length and the majority of the flaws come from what they didn't do, that's worthy of reflection.

    Honestly, I find little could help at this point in time considering that in order to be an outstanding third trilogy in a saga of two trilogies consisting of six films, you have to deftly integrate exposition with character building from the very beginning but then again, the intent wasn't to take the best from both trilogies to make an ambitious and excellent continuation. It was to draw from the original trilogy and add detrimental contemporary influences that make it substantially worse than the original trilogy. This can be seen from the startling nature of Anakin Skywalker's absence considering that he is the only one who could possibly understand the entrapment and futility that his son feels at that moment considering that he was himself trapped in a futile and ironically enslaved existence as the Emperor's enforcer.
     
    #23 Malus Dagoth, Jan 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  4. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I had a similar idea after seing TLJ. I'll just copy and paste what I wrote back then.

    Snoke was the prime jedi depicted in the mosaic, equally light and dark. But somehow his body was split. The good in him left, leaving behind the scars and the crack in the head. He literally split apart. Now Snoke wants to become whole again, he is basically the bad part trying to find his good side to restore the balance. By creating conflict and chaos in the unviverse he knows that eventually his light side will show up as a reaction. He wants to find his light side again this way but he isn't sure who it is. Snoke expects his good part to come in form of Luke (a Skywalker). Why you ask?. Well the good part was... Anakin Skywalker. His birth out of nowhere happened when the good part split away from Snoke. This is also why Anakin was said to restore the balance. He was destined to make Snoke whole again but he didn't which is why Snoke is keeping track of the Skywalkers. That's the reason why he tempts Kylo in the throneroom. To see if there is light or dark in him. To see if he kills Rey or him. That moment Snoke lets "Kylo" kill him he knows that Kylo might be his long lost good side after all. Kylo will find redemption in IX by merging with Snoke, thus restoring the balance in the force once and for all and end the Skywalker bloodline that should have never existed in the first place. For now he literally feels "torn apart" but he will become the prime Jedi in the end. There can only be balance if the prime Jedi exists, teh first of teh order. Rey, representing "a nobody" carries on the torch of the "mortal" forceusers.

    This theory would explain why Snoke did not interfere with Sidious (he was restoring the balance by dethroning the jedi) and what JJ means by connecting the prequels to the sequels.

    The following image has not been mirrored it shows where Snoke's good side should be and how it left him scared after leaving him
    snoke.png
     
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  5. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    i always imagined snoke was the darker half of luke skywalker literally....born from the dark side cave on dagobah. but this was something else
     
  6. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    the difference between a character like Comodus and a character like Kylo, Is Kylo has to feel like a physical threat to our heroes, commodore was snivelling little guy who would hide behind his solders.
     
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  7. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

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    Don't know why, but I think we will get more on Snoke. It maybe something similar to what you presented. But everything can't be answered in a movie, it would be more the 2.5 hours. I believe his story will be told more in the EU once it is done.
     
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  8. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    True of Cmodus but Kylo is an agent of the dark side. His rage and unhinged nature make him and his powers unpredictable. Where Vader was relentless and driven in purpose. Kylo is a tempest of rage fueled power.
     
  9. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

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    I'm sure we'll get a book or comic on him down the line. Yeah, it sucks to have to wait for that, but there will be another SW related things to look forward to in the meantime.
     
  10. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    ow i defiantly think we will get more Snoke in the books and comics, but that exact thing is what has got alot of people anoid, they feel the films asked questions, and now if a fan wants to know the answers they have to read them in a book becuase they feel the movies changed direction and decided not to answer them.
     
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  11. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    What if Anakin appears to Kylo and tells him that Snoke was once a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious and that he was responsible for the creation of their family? It'd make sense that Anakin was the one to relay this, as he was the one who heard it from Sidious. He can tell Kylo that this doesn't make their family the rulers of the galaxy, but a curse upon it. Anakin can then explain how he just wanted the power to keep his love from dying but, as ever, the Dark Side betrayed him and his choices led to her death.

    This would tell us everything we need to know about Snoke, without having to come up with a ton of exposition about this Prime Jedi or whatever. He was a Sith (so that explains his origins, his power and his ideology). We'd know that he had mastery over death - so that'd explain how he managed to survive and look so hideous. We'd know that he has a very close tie to the Skywalker's and Vader, hence his continued obsession with them.

    Kylo splitting him in half (the ridiculous Maul story aside), would mean that he is really dead this time and Kylo managed to do something that Sidious couldn't. It would explain why Sidious thought he had tricked his master (who was conveniently asleep) but that Snoke, who cannot be betrayed, saw it coming and prepared himself. Snoke then freed himself of the Sith order, as Maul did, and took a new name. He waited in the UR, in his vulnerable state, waiting for Vader to fulfil his destiny and destroy Sidious. But Vader's compassion was his undoing and the Sith were completely wiped out. So Snoke looks to corrupt the next best thing...Ben Solo, the grandson of Vaaaaduhhhh...
     
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  12. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    The problem is that tempest comes out a lot in temper tantrums, which makes the audience judge him as a child and so not that threatening.

    In episode 9, we can be 95% sure that their will be another show down between Rey and Kylo most likely near the end of the third act. Normally when a hero goes to face a film or stories main villain(especially a series of stories main villain) the film maker makes it feel like the odds are stacked against them, that the villain is much more powerful, and if they arn't more powerful then have some sort of weapon that can defeat them(it would be hard to do this in the case of episode 9 becuase it will likely be a lightsaber fight) the director does this becuase audiences know that 9.9 times out of 10 the hero will win so they have to overcompensate on the threat levels in order to make audience believe the hero is in any kind of danger.

    My concern is it is going to be very hard to do that with 9, as they have already spend 2 films making the main villain look conflicted and at times weak. We've even seen our hero beat them in a fight before. Add to this we've seen his temper get in the way of his thinking so you don't even really feel he can out smart Rey. And to that the New Order on the whole has been made to look pretty incompetent, and the only other surviving villain is Hux, who has been made into a comedy side character. Add to all that we've already seen these character fight twice which means the pressure to give audiences something different is greater. .

    So while im in no way saying it is impossible, Im saying it is going to take some really great story telling to get from where we are now to genuinely feeling like the odds are agaisnt Rey in a fight with Kylo and to make it feel like a worth climax to a trilogy.

    You may disagree, which is of course fine, but thats they way myself and a lot of other star wars fans i know are feeling going into episode 9.
     
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  13. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I don't think it'll play out this way. For me, I think they'll take a different route..

    First Act: Kylo and KoR are the big bad. But Hux is plotting behind the scenes.
    Second Act: Kylo is uspured (betrayed by Hux) and after a confrontation with Rey is rescued.
    Third Act: The FO is on the ropes and Hux unleashes a galaxy destroying weapon. Rey and Ben have to team up to stop it (only after defeating the KoR). She can't do it alone.
     
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  14. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    I don't think they can do what you said above for a number of reasons.
    • Firstly they have teased Kylo turning good for two films now and back tracking or doing it for a third film whether they go through with it or not would feel like repeating themselves too much. It would also undermine alot things they have done with Kylo over the past two films.
    • Secondly setting Hux up as the main villain after they have basically turned him into a comedy side character.They have made him look like a baffoon not smart not menacing at this point he is a bit of joke. SO having him be the villain everyone has to band togther to defeat would feel a bit silly.
    • Then you have the Kylo and Rey teaming up, whose going to stop them? they shown they can pretty much plow do an anyone so where would the threat be. Even if they introduce the nights of Ren, they have already established that kylo is the leader and strongest so they wouldn't feel like a threat.
    • and finally another super weapon, even one that could destroy a galaxy is just going to make audiences role their eyes.
    So don't think and hope they don't go that route, if they where going to turn Kylo good they had to keep Snoke alive so that Rey and Kylo had a threat to fight against with Snoke gone, they have to keep Kylo as a bad guy as their is no one else.
    Thats my thoughs anyway.
     
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  15. Rellum

    Rellum Rebelscum

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    Can I ask why people who don't like the film are called part of a backlash?

    Wouldn't a more appropriate term be "people who don't like this film"?

    What do you think they are back-lashing against? It really does seem to be a silly term to be using.
     
    #35 Rellum, Jan 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I get that. But at the same time, it would make his return more of a surprise. And it depends on how they execute it. I don't envisage a Vader style redemption.

    Maybe, maybe not. Hux is like Malfoy from the Harry Potter films. Constantly derided and made a fool of. Fearful of his master and trying to live up to his father. Eventually, something will snap or if the time comes, he will seek terrible revenge upon EVERYONE. And that makes him very dangerous.

    I'm referring to more of a "natural disaster" type event than another death star. I believe there was some kind of galaxy swallowing force well on Jakku that Palpatine wanted to unleash. What if Hux, in a bid to get revenge, unleashes this and only Rey and Ren can stop it? I think that'd be new and exciting - and allows for some lightsaber action prior to it in the second and third acts between Rey/Ren and then ReyBen and the KoR.

    Exciting that the debate is wide open though...keeps things unpredictable.
     
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  17. BaserCreatures

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    Did I have fun theorizing about Snoke after TFA? You bet!

    But, I feel like everyone involved in the film tried to temper expectations and we all just ignored it because our own what ifs were too much fun.

    I think we are setting ourselves up for more disappointment if we continue theorizing and speculating over his character with the expectation that it will be addressed in the next movie. Books and comics, I would think are probably a sure thing at some point, but I think it is time that we move on. This kind of wishing and hoping only leads to disappointment when nothing is addressed and Snoke ends up only being mentioned once or twice in Episode IX in passing.

    I don't feel like Snoke was a bad character or damaged in any way. He was exactly what he needed to be.

    I know it keeps being stated but his presence pretty closely mirrors the Emperor's role in the OT. A mysterious leader who is overthrown by his pupil. Thanks to the movie's accompanying literature I feel like we probably know more about Snoke compared to what audiences knew about the Emperor at the time.

    We as fans are informationally spoiled. And that's ok. We just need to be aware of it and put it into perspective sometimes.
     
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  18. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

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    Didn't Rian say somewhere Snoke will have some sort of part to play in Episode 9?
     
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  19. Mosley909

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    I’m not sure if it would make it more of a surprise, I mean they’ve dragged out the will he won’t he turn good for two films, if they do it for a third then I think people will feel very old. Plus if they do it early enough in the film so that they have time for him and Rey to team up and go of to save the galaxy then, then it will be very hard not to feel rushed. They can’t just have two films of teasing him turning good but the ultimately choosing the dark, just for him to go no actually I am good in the first half of 9, for me it would cheapen what’s happened.

    If they turned Kylo in the third act they would run the risk of just copying Return of the Jedi, and I don’t think Abrams will want to do that after the criticism he got for The Force Awaken been just a rehash of A New Hope

    But like you said it would depend on how they execute it, but turning Kylo now would be an incredibly hard thing to execute well.

    The difference is Malfoy was never going to be the series main villain, he was a side character on the way to Harry eventual showdown with Voldemort. If they had at the end of harry potter and the Deathly Hallows had harry take on Malfoy it would have felt very anticlimactic.

    I would also argue that they made Hux far more of a comedy incompetent character in The Last Jedi then they ever did with Malfoy in Harry Potter.

    I don’t think it makes sense that Palpatine to have wanted to unleash a something that destroyed the galaxy, he never seemed that kind of character as he seemed to want to rule and conquer not destroy.

    Their have been hints in cannon that there is something significant about Jakku, but I do offen think that film makers pay much attention to whats going on in comics and books. I dunno if you watch Jedi Coucil? Buti kind of echo Kristian Harloffs views on this.

    If they are going get kylo and Rey to team up to fight a greater enemy, then I think they have to stay clear of super weapons, maybe some kind of threat posed by the force, but without Snoke it will be hard to set that up and not just seem like mumbo jumbo.

    That’s something I do agree on, going into 9 its really hard to know where they are goanna go.
     
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  20. TheTruTru

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    This might be over simplistic, but I don't see how you have a Kylo redemption story without Snoke somehow being involved. If Kylo & Rey end up teaming up, it either has to be against some greater evil, or Rey has to go dark. Only other option to end the trilogy is Rey defeating Kylo or vise versa
     
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