SPECULATION Rendemption - Evidence For & Against A Return To Light

MSW (I think it was them) have alluded that the KOR scene might be appearing twice in VIII - once earlier in the movie as part of a vision (Ben Solo's fall story?), and then a second time later in the movie when they show up on Ahch-to? Or, that's at least my speculation. I think we will see part of Rey's vision again in VIII but this time with some explanation about Ben's fall early in VIII and then later in the movie Kylo will show up on Ahch-to and perhaps Rey will see him in a different light having already been told his story?

 

hahaha ~ i guess i shouldn't say i don't want to know and then post spoilers that i have heard.

 

Haha, yes you did that. (Sorry about elaborating on the spoiler. I know you trying to keep spoiler free, although I imagine that's not an easy task...)
In any case, spoilers or no spoilers, one can hardly avoid the fact that Adam showed up in Ireland and spend there almost as long as Daisy and Mark, thus even speculating on the base of that is also something one can hardly avoid. I'm personally very intrigued that Kylo will show up (maybe?) on Ahch-to and the situation will definetely be very intriguing. Before th spoilers even came out, in my mind, one way to deepen the conflict and the already very charged relationship between Kylo and Rey they need to be put together and possibly be put in a situation that they need to work together...
That's where I think Letter Never Send (mentioned by @Moral Hazard earlier) and also Three Outlaw Samurai movie can be an influence on the Force plot...perhaps not only visually...

 

I haven't been keeping up with the thread, but I have noticed, universally, what brings Dark Siders back to the Light is love. It is sweet irony, since the Jedi try to distance themselves from attachment and love.

Revan brings Bastila to the Light through his love for her.
Luke brings Anakin to the Light through Anakin's love for his son.
Ulic Qel-Droma is brought back to the Light through the shock and horror of killing his beloved brother.

I don't think Kylo's redemption will be any different.

 

If Snoke is truly wise, he must realise he's in danger of losing his grip on Kylo's loyalty. Judging from the TFA novel, Snoke has already pinpointed Kylo's weakness and his potential downfall.

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment. “This scavenger–this girl–resisted you?”
“That’s all she is, yes. A scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku. Completely untrained, but strong with the Force. Stronger than she knows.” His mask off, Ren replied with what seemed to be his usual assurance. No one else would have sensed differently. Snoke did.
The Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her”.
“No–never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”.
“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.
​

Also, when Snoke commands Kylo to bring Rey to him, the novel points out that Snoke wants to provide a "reminder" to Kylo.

“Kylo Ren. It appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the Dark side. Bring the girl to me.“
​

I think the reminder that Snoke wanted to teach Kylo (if Rey hadn't escaped), was that a dark-sider cannot, under any circumstances, show compassion for an enemy. After all, Snoke understands the reason for Vader's downfall, so he must also be aware that Kylo is falling into a similar trap.

I agree. The potential for good or bad exists within everything. Love can either lead you to the dark side or it can pull you back to the light. If Kylo returns to the light, I think it will be primarily because of his attraction for Rey. At the moment, he's trying to suppress and hide those feelings, feelings he probably has never felt before in his entire life (which is why, mentally, he's a complete, bloody mess right now).

Ultimately, Kylo's conflict will be about him choosing between Rey or Snoke, heart or mind, light or dark. The fact that we don't what path he will choose is what makes his character so compelling. However, there will be a critical moment when Kylo must decide his path (I think that moment will be the scene from Rey's vision). He has already failed to kill Rey twice now, he most likely only has one more chance to impress Snoke or else...

 

Revan and Bastila saved each other, didn't they?

 

what i meant by unconditional love (others definitions may vary) was that aspect we saw from Han on the bridge.

some have said that true love from a parent would have them doing whatever it takes to stop their kid from being a galaxy-killing murderer, but i think it's obvious that Han was not an ideal parent in that regard. he had already made that mistake. what's beautiful about that moment is that he knows it, he all but acknowledges it, and in the only way he knows how, he tells his son that he loves him in spite of everything, even the worst of it. he doesn't ask all those nagging questions about what he's going to do with Ben or what will happen if he manages to convince Ben to come home. that's not important. the important part is trying to save him--and asking forgiveness when he can't.

you're right: with Luke and Vader it's not so cut and dried. Luke does say "then my father is truly dead" when Vader rejects him, but he does appeal to that same father when the emperor has him down on the ground. you could argue that's just self-preservation on Luke's part, but i always took it as a measure of Luke's faith. even though he had beat Vader, cut off his hand, etc., he still believed there was good in him to be reached. and to me, when you refuse to give up even after all attempts feel exhausted, that's a measure of love.

 

I'd go further with this in regard to Luke and in terms of what unconditional love is for a Jedi.
Sure, Luke loved his father, or rather the idea of who his father once was. And he could sense that this man was still there. So of course he wanted to appeal to that.
But when I say "Luke sacrificed himself out of unconditional love", I am talking about a love for everything and everyone that requires him to forego his own ego.
When Luke throws down his saber he is doing so because he sees he is turning evil. And so if we examine that we see that Luke realises that he could indeed become very powerful and could save his friends. But he chooses not to because of what that would mean for everyone else, for the galaxy.
That for me is the display of unconditional love that makes Luke, finally, a Jedi. Luke is saying that he loves everything and everyone else beyond himself and his own life is forfeit. He is detaching himself from his own thoughts of self. His own ego. And this is the ultimate transformational power of love. Just look what happens next...

This act of self-sacrifice awakens the good in Vader. Deep down he loved his son but he was too weak to act and let go of his own attachments to power and hatred. But then Luke shows him how it is done. In a way, Luke completes his training by showing him the ultimate power of unconditional love. And then Vader himself sacrifices his life for the love he has for his son that again, by extension, is a love shared by the entire galaxy.

Once you have crossed this threshold and rejected the ego and become one with all, this is when you're truly redeemed. Past crimes, though not forgotten or in some cases ever healed, can't prevent someone's redemption - as uncomfortable as that might be for some.

 

that too.

amen. precisely.

i know some people's tolerance for an ambiguous ending is thin (never have i encountered an audience so demanding of full and complete answers), but the OT barely answered anything and i was perfectly okay with that ~ and will be perfectly okay with lingering questions here. i'm not grinding my teeth about Rey's parents or how the Irving Boys stole the Falcon or whether it's a Forceback or Forceforward, etc.

and if the last thing we see is Luke sending Ben off into a binary sunset without any explanation of where he's going to what he's going to do, i'm perfectly okay with that. 100%

 

I think one of Lucas' aims was to get young people to think and more rationally. That was for me an overriding message from the OT.
Throughout the OT we see Luke acting on impulse, irrationally to some degree. Not thinking. Impatient. That's the description Yoda gives of Luke as well.
But at the end, with the sum of his training, Luke actually acts rationally. With a clear mind. He let's go of the anger and dark side fuelled rage.
This moment of clarity enables him to, and I quote from the ROTJ script, make the decision for which he has spent a lifetime in preparation.
So it would seem that the Dark Side and its passions = irrationality whilst the Light Side = rationality.
From the outside of course, we know that the Dark Side leads to a life of sadness and your own destruction. Where as the Light Side leads to joy and immortality.

I think this idea of being rational however links in to the Light Side redemption theme.
Vader probably doesn't just realise that he loves his son and acts on that - but he sees that he has made a terrible mistake his entire life and that he can still do something right. "It is too late for me, Son", was such a great and meaningful line and it echoes here. Vader realises it isn't too late...
The love Vader discovered was the motivating factor but it was the opportunity to make the rational decision, as Luke did previously, that redeemed him.

And so with Kylo Ren, we almost got a glimpse of this rationality on the bridge when facing his father. Han tells Ren that Snoke will crush him and Ren, somehow, knows this to be true. With Ren, unlike Vader in the OT, we're seeing him in the throws of conflict. He sees and feels the pull of the light and is open about it (to a burned up mask - ha!) but of course is in terrible pain and wishes to put an end to that. Even so, what Ren needs is a moment of clarity and reflection to really see that the Dark Side is not the answer. Han's advice wasn't enough. His mother failed. Luke failed. Even Vader's redemption didn't seem to make an impact. But his compassion for Rey might give him pause for thought. And when or if that happens he will hopefully see that the Dark Side doesn't offer the solution but is the problem.

 

Whoa! How come I didn't notice this thread earlier! Oh yeah, I see what you did there with the thread title, @Moral Hazard *thumbs up*

I agree with @Choose Light regarding the evident Chekhov's gun in the "there is still good/light in him" deal. And it is even more poignant to have the Princess to be the one who is saying it, since with all her conflict regarding her Skywalker legacy and being Vader's daughter - since she cannot seem to differentiate both entities nor acknowledge her father has been redeemed - you know that even when her son has gone to the Dark side, she can feel the Light in him, either because she has this Force link with her son (as we saw back in Life Debt, when she was pregnant) or because she is optimistic. I'm truly hoping it is because of the first.

I gotta say at first I was heavily invested into speculating about Rey origins, but I certainly agree with you.

Agree. I mean, the OT had the Emperor BUT we didn't find out much of him until the third installment of the trilogy. (Yeah I know we saw him in TESB, but briefly).

In Dark Disciple, love is also what makes Quinlan Vos to shake the grip of the dark side completely when Asajj Ventress sacrifices herself to save him from Count Dooku.

What @kb93 mentions about the ultimate conflict of Kylo Ren being the choice between Rey or Snoke sounds quite feasible. We don't know yet which kind of relationship they will end up having, but it could be a good chance of having this dilemma for him.

Alas, the feels. But 100% agree.

+1

Interesting question, @oldbert and what you and @master_shaitan wisely mention here as how Luke took a great step into his becoming a full Jedi knight is how can he use the power of unconditional love to detach himself from his sense of individual. He decides to put down his weapon and avoid finishing killing his father since he can see he would be going down the same path that took his father into the Dark Side.

I have been watching TCW - currently going through Season 4 - and now I get how poignant was the fall to the Dark of Anakin Skywalker. After all he went thru during 3-4 years with his fellow Jedi fighting in The Clone Wars, I could see in some way the parallels with Luke's story: on a similar period of time, Luke was following his path to become a Jedi but at the same time fighting along his Rebel friends for the freedom of the Galaxy. And if we rewind just a little bit from the scene where he has beaten his father down and cut his hand, we noticed that the trigger that made him go back to fight was, precisely, the love for his friends, especially for his sister. It is just when Vader threatens to lure Leia to the Dark side that Luke goes back and fights his father with such a strength that he takes him down. So he is almost standing at the edge of being driven by his emotions and attachments to the Dark Side and he realizes so.

It would be definitely interesting to see what could trigger that in Kylo.

 

I think @Moral Hazard made a good glimpse through a window within her post above (the one with the spoiler tags). And also a Rebels Episode of Season 2 gave some hints..
People team up under special circumstances.. *chm-chm*..
Ok, I simply let go my attachments to this kind of thrilling spoilery comeback theories

 

Just a quick point re: redemption.
We seem to be talking about redemption from the point of view of others rather than the redeemed.
I'm not sure that redemption is about how others view you but how you view yourself.
I mean, for Vader he felt he was redeemed way before Yoda rescued his spirit.
"I can't leave you here, I have to save you...".
"You already have, Luke....".

So for Anakin, he already felt redeemed because, I guess, he had learned to love again, let go of hate and with that do the right thing.
He found joy in that and thus was redeemed and willing to let go of his life.
What is it they say? You have to forgive yourself first...
I guess really you can be redeemed twice:
First by yourself and then by others.

 

randomness from the internet (likely based on Carrie Fisher's remark about Rey--that she's "very forgiving"):

 

Rendemption...ha ha I love it. Yeah he's going back to the light. Although I wish he didn't, if I had it my way he'd find balance between light and dark. I used to think that's where the character was going, but it might be too morally ambiguous. Lucasfilm might put young fans first, and they need clear messages. It might be hard to explain to a kid why Kylo Ren is "good" but still uses the dark side.

 

welcome to the Cantina, @Starchaser!

kids are already confused and disturbed by what's happened in TFA, i think. you're right: they are going to send a clear message, but i also think it might not be that hard for them to understand why he can't come back and just fight alongside the Resistance--why he might have to occupy a middle ground. if one of the themes here is balance, the message they may want to send is about tempering your passions moreso than Dark/Light aspects of the Force (which are conceptually fantasy).

the fact that they have introduced the concept of "Light" in place of "Good" seems to suggest they may be fishing for more than simple moral black and white demarcations.