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SPECULATION Rendemption - Evidence For & Against A Return To Light

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    That's just a peck, and it is even in the scene they had in the finished product. They cut out all the dialogue because it was just repetition. I think by the time they were making this movie, they were thinking of going that way as a possibility. I know from the beginning that GL didn't know where the characters would go, and was back and forth about siblings, it could always be easier if Leia was his sister, or if other things happened (Like if HF leaving the series) making her the interest. The whole Jedi thing about being solitary though makes more sense. I read that the real reaction to the siblings from the actors, which they didn't find out until the last movie no matter what happened in GL head, was "Come on George."

    As for RenBen, of course his parents didn't understand him. Few people would, even possibly Luke, and it seems like he was dumped on Luke. I am sure he grew up knowing he was Force Sensitive, and even if his mother was, she was of a different personality and never trained as a Jedi, as far as we know anyway, though she seemed to have some control of her abilities as far as what she used. They also had busy jobs and personalities, which doesn't mean they didn't care or take care of him, but it could be looked at by the character as that way, and the fact that we don't know what age he was sent to Luke, but that could look like abandonment as well, even if it was a matter of him probably being the best person to understand him. The Princess Leia character seemed to be the most emotionally mature of the gang, except for maybe Chewie, and well, RenBen doesn't seem very emotionally mature even now. Maybe it isn't that he has too much Vader in him, but too much Solo mixed with the Skywalker FS stuff.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2016 ---
    Come to think of it, there is even a peck after the Luke and Leia talk on the Ewok bridge. They are just kissy huggy people.
     
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  2. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    "It's all Uncle George's fault" (read it with whiny AOTC Anakin's voice).

    Yeah, I agree with you because at that point even GL had not defined those relationships yet. He wasn't sure Han Solo would be back so Luke could be the love interest for Leia. But then ROTJ came up as BAM! "you guys are twins!" and the Jedi philosophy of no attachments later reinforced.

    However, this created an additional issue: if Leia was also Anakin's daughter - and someone with a greater deal of motivations to face Vader - why she didn't receive the opportunity to witness her father's redemption? I know, Luke was the main character, the last of the Jedi but she deserved her chance too!

    I guess I am completely lost on how the personal perceptions of the actors are of any importance to the character, or at least what was the original argument about LOL. Anyhow, yeah, right now what we've got so far is the bits of information both JJ and Adam have given us about Kylo Ren and his motivations.

    And this goes along with what I just mentioned above, about the unresolved issue of having Leia as Anakin's daughter but having been tortured and persecuted by Vader, she deserved some kind of closure that she didn't get. The old EU - now Legends - offered some kind of compensation from the books where she finally comes to terms with her Skywalker's legacy and even starts training as a Jedi. However, the Great Wipe offered a better use of that unresolved issue by using it as the main conflict for the sequel trilogy. I agree, Rey is the main character but the main issue is the aftermath of Ben Solo's fall to the dark side due to his unacknowledged Skywalker's legacy. (I might said Vader's legacy instead).
     
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  3. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    for me better no redemption, at least not an easy one. ;)
     
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  4. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    OK, I volunteer to tickle and pet him to death, after he is redeemed.
     
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  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    okay, as a staunch defender of Ben Solo, i have to say that makes me uncomfortable.
    let's not get weird....hahahaha
     
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  6. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Oh? Which part? The petting or the tickling? I was of course being sarcastic about it being to the death part, surely you must know that!
    Also, I am amenable to variations. Alternatively, I can cuddle and pet him. :p

    rna.gif

    Again, unless it was/is not clear, I was/am making a sarcastic joke...and just being a bit silly. :D
     
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  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i think it's the petting.
    just....an unfortunate (and squicky) choice of words ~ hahahaha
     
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  8. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    (OK. No more silliness for today. )

    I was looking for some parallels (intentionally) and here is what I came up with these set of parallel gifs.

    I leave them here for your consideration, or as food for thought as it were.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Coincidence? Hm, I think not.
     
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  9. tm0910196

    tm0910196 Guest

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    This one is consistently laugh-worthy. Well done. :D
     
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  10. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    Bwahahaha that word made me think of one song frrom The Rocky Horror Picture Show.

    Thanks!
     
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  11. JV-24601

    JV-24601 Rebel Official

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    I know folks complain about how the Prequels look, but those shots of the boys against the lava are pretty nice, and some of the best cinematography in the Prequels. Also: BLUE AND ORANGE CONTRAST!
     
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  12. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    So I came across this silly set of TFA fake dialogue gifs and as I laughed so hard at how well the fake dialogue works, I thought I might as well share them here as they are indeed quite pertinent to this thread.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    Well that got depressing pretty fast.
     
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  14. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    jyy.gif
     
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  15. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    #95 Moral Hazard, Dec 1, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
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  16. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    So, hopefully by now everyone has seen Rogue One and we can speculate how things set up in it might potentially tie into the main trilogy.

    I have seen a couple of articles pop up these days talking about how Rogue One would add to the interpretation of the trilogies of the main saga and that is something I think is a valid point.

    One thing that to me is directly connected with Kylo's possible redemption in this present trilogy is the horrific scene of Vader slaying rebels horror-movie style at the very end of R1.

    [​IMG]

    Now, that bad***ery was put in R1 not just to make fanboys (and fangirls) have their jaws drop (I know mine did), but I would argue that it was put there so that we (the audience) have a fresh reminder of the horrific deeds of Darth Vader and his relentless evil. We need this reminder in order to also remember that even he who is someone so powerful and who has used his power in service of evil for so long, even he can be and was redeemed.

    Kylo in contrast (from what we have seen of him so far) is nothing compared to the evilness of his grandfather and his years of service to the Dark Side are much fewer in comparison. Thus, I would speculate that having that scene of Vader in R1 serves the larger narrative in that it reiterates that even someone so far gone as Vader was can come back.
    Surely Anakin's grandson who we have seen is very deeply conflicted and definetely tempted and pulled to the light can and will come back!

    #SaveBenSolo
    #BringHimHome
     
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  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    Darth Vader still didn't stop a blaster bolt mid-air and hold it there ~ hahaha
    okay, that's not a measure of evil.

    none of this matters to children--it's only us as adults that analyze it to death. If Darth Vader says he's sorry and Luke forgives him, children accept that (the same way they accept all turns in fairy tales). when i hear arguments against a redemption for Ben they're typically grounded in an adult's sense of justice or revenge, but children are uncomplicated by such moral conundrums. they understand basic concepts of say your sorry and be forgiven--that's what we teach them (jeez, i hope we do!).

    so do i think there's an overarching design here to prime an audience? not really to be honest. Rogue One isn't really a children's movie and it's full of moral ambiguities that may require a lot of adult mediation for especially a younger child. as adults, we've made up out minds about Vader. we either accept that Luke is a great hero who genuinely brought healing to a broken soul or he's a fool who loved an evil man for no cause, but at least his foolishness rid the galaxy of a virulent cancer.

    i genuinely hope that Han's love, the defense of Ben's mother and uncle, and Ben's own remorse/good deeds will convince people that he deserves a second chance. if people aren't convinced by those things, it's really their loss. i think it takes a hard heart to say that this fairy tale doesn't deserve a happy ending.
     
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  18. FN-3263827

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    [​IMG]

    not even death--not Han Solo's nor Carrie Fisher's will keep Ren Ben from the Light.
     
    #98 FN-3263827, Dec 31, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  19. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    And ambiguity around the term "redemption". One tumblr poster puts it this way:

    "There’s something fundamentally broken if people like this are roaring for blood at a series like Star Wars, whose entire fundamental premise ever since the days of the Original Trilogy was that the possibility of redemption exists even for those who see themselves as standing the farthest from it. Remember, redemption does not mean forgiveness from others. Redemption does not mean ‘get away from punishment’. Redemption doesn’t even mean you forgive yourself.

    No, redemption means that one transformative act that pulls the soul up from a state of moral degeneracy. Everything that follows after can be one long punishment conga line, either at the character’s wishes or at the wishes of others. But fundamentally misinterpreting even basic theological concepts for the sake of justifying one’s frothing hatred is nothing new in this fandom.
    "
     
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  20. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Call me clouded. Disagree with me. Give me a dislike. Don't mind.

    The main reason I want no redemption is because I'm tired of the "same story". I want this pathetic excuse of a villian, this wanabe Vader joke of a dark sider to have 3 endings.

    1. Unredeemed death. 2. Captured with a life sentence or execution. Or 3. flees in 9 for a return in the next trilogy.

    I mean there is a few things I like about Ren. He's got a nice ride & a cool saber. But even if I loved his charecter (which I don't) I'd still not want him to get the same, THE SAME ending as Vader.

    I can only take so much unorginality as possible.
     
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