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SPECULATION Rendemption - Evidence For & Against A Return To Light

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    #IX
     
  2. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    I dislike Kylo Ren. Not because he's "bad" or wants be like his grandfather, but because of his overall childish personality. He's the personification of a spoiled brat with some strong daddy and entitlement issues. A hugely irritating character verging on the ridiculous and unintentionally comedic, not at all fitting to be a villainous character like Vader was in earlier films.

    As for his "boss", Snoke - well, his name is Snoke, he's a hologram and he has Andy Serkis's voice. Who is he? Where did he come from? What does he want? How did he get to be in the position he is? None of these questions are asked or answered. Snoke is the weakest, laziest written and therefore the worst character in Star Wars history.
    ;)
     
    #102 SKB, Dec 31, 2016
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  3. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    In my opinion he is not returning to the light side. I honestly don't think this character will be redeemed.

    Notice he is doing everything in his power to destroy the "call to the light". Exactly why Han died. He is split, but Kylo Ren is in charge now and it would take a miracle to save him. The truth is his FAMILY. With his famly dead, so dies Ben Solo.

    Off topic, RIP Carrie Fisher, I believe her death will force a rewrite. I believe it was their intention in 9, just a hunch, she was going to redeem Kylo. Now they can't do that unless they CGI her in which brings some moral grounds. Touchy subject.
     
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  4. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Ren will be redeemed. Properly. This is not a Vader unplausible redemption rehash. Ren's redemption is going to be more intense and emmotionally captivating for the audience that by the end of ST you will all identify with him. Brace yourselves. Rendemption is comming. As per reasons listed below.

    1. He is the Last Skywalker. He has to be redeemed. Unless he rapes someone and make new baby Skywalkers for next instalments of the Saga. There is no SW without the Skywalkers. (There is no rape in SW, not even if some Anakinfanssince1911 like to claim so)

    2. Han Solo did not die for nothing. He sacrificed himself to save his son. It is perhaps the first time that Han reached out and understood his Force Sensitive child. The touch of forgivness he implanted on the face of Kylo Ren in the end of that scene is the thing that will inspire and enkindle the choice of his turning away from the darkness. It is the Legacy of Han Solo to save his son. It is what Leia has sent him out to do. Anyone who have children know the strength of this sacrifice. And such a thing is not in vain. Never. It may take some time for Kylo to realize that...but he has been changed forever when he betrayed his father, but not in the sense he thought it will be. Or most of you did.

    3. Han forgave him, so can all of you judgemental prickles. And stop being such hypocrites, if you loved Han that much you would boycot the young Han Solo movie, cuz...there can be only one Han Solo.

    4. With Carrie gone, there will be no more Princess Leia in the movies after 8. And with strong indications that Luke himself will die in 9 to become one with the Force, it is highly unlikely that now they will kill him too. So not only he will be redeemed, but he will also live.

    5. Love is a crucial arc in SW....in OT we had Han and Leia. In PT we had Ani and Padmé. In
    Rogue One we had Jyn and Cassian
    Who will have the central love story of ST? Certainly not non-Skywalkers. Rey is not a Skywalker, and Finn is surely not one either. (Besides the fact this love story would be boring as hell, we'll come back to that point later). All of these love stories that we have seen in SE so far had passion, drama, intensity, greatness, epicness and end of the world kinda feeling. But all were essentially tragic. First one starting from good turning bad cuz Ani had to become Vader, second one between two irreconcilable strong characters what made their dynamic magical however doomed, third one cuz you know they all die :p . Next one, will be the most epic one of all. It will have (it already has!) all the sass of Han/Leia, all the conflict of Anidala and all the hope of this last one.

    Love is a path to compassion. Compassion is a path to forgiveness. Forgivness is the path to redemption. Redemption is the path to the Light Side.
    (This is my original. You can quote me with proper credit :p )

    6. We live in a shitty times in a shitty world where morallywise the differences between the good guys and the bad guys are smudged now more than ever. Ambiguity of character is overwhelming and the goal justiffies the means mentality omnipresent...not only in governments and institutions of religion when it comes to grand events, but also in a little man, when it comes to everyday things. Who of you can claim purity and altruistic nature of your actions so you'd be entitled to have moral high ground over Kylo Ren?? I don't see many relinquishing all their possessions and running off to sunset to help the needy, hungry, poor and sick of this world. Most of you just look away from all that and accept the amorality of your governments so you can wash your hands of responsibility for the shittynes of today's world. Hate to break it to you, but sithy people make a sithy world. So get off your high horse and take away those judgemental glasses. You are all Ren's of this world. And what better message of hope there is for ALL of us than the possibility of redemption. It is never too late to do a good thing. No matter what sith you did in the past. Those who love you will forgive you. Those who love you already have. That thing is called HOPE...and hope has always been the anathema of Star Wars...since the first movie to now this last one!

    Rebelions are built on hope.
    and
    This is a rebelion isn't it?....I rebel.

    Can you say the same?

    Happy Christmas, BTW and Merry New Year.
    Your Jesus aka Dark Cutie :p
     
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  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    thanks for the random negative ratings. good luck making friends in the Cantina ~ hahaha

    likewise. : o p
     
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  6. JV-24601

    JV-24601 Rebel Official

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    1. He's not the Last Skywalker. Luke is still around, and there's still a big question mark over Rey. But yes, he's the only one we know of who has a good chance of passing the family genes on to the next generation.

    2. I agree that Han's death will be in vain if Kylo is not redeemed.

    3. I think this is going to be the crux of Kylo's redemption: Han's final gesture of love and forgiveness.

    4. That's not a given. They may decide that using CGI to reconstruct Carrie Fisher's likeness will be worth the criticism of the technology to complete the trilogy.

    5. The Star Wars Saga is a story about the things members of a single family will do for each other.

    6. I agree that people want idealistic entertainment nowadays.
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    The fact that he struggles with the light is a huge indicator for his redemption. But he won't get a full Vader-style redemption.

    I think he will never be a fully light side Ben Solo. I want to see a Ben Solo who still uses the dark side "to fight for the right thing". BenRen has the potential to become something entirely new. A "good" dark side user.
     
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i honestly think this is where it's all going. the Force isn't bad.
    Dark/Light aren't actually moral polarities.
    there's nothing intrinsically evil about passion.

    i think this is what Luke has learned (perhaps has always known) and it's what he's going to teach Ben and Rey together.
    he couldn't deal with Ben before because of Ben's vulnerability to Snoke--because of his compromised emotional state in the wake of learning about Vader.
     
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  9. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    1. Last born Skywalker. Reywalker ship has sailed off long ago, IMO. Based on all that was seen onscreen and said about TFA by people who know. Latest collectors edition commentary for 3d issue has many indications of that. At best she is a Kenobi.

    2. Agreed.

    3. Agreed if by crux on redemption you mean the reason behind it.

    4. Having a CGI Leia doing complex emmotions would be a disservice to Carrie Fisher's excellent work. Tarkin was not that bad, but never good as the original. Same goes for Leia, and she never even spoke.

    5. Story about fathers and sons. And daughters. Legacy and burden of it. Hope and love. Compassion. Redemption.

    6. There are good stories and there are epic stories. Epic is almost never idealistic. Shall ST be an epic story? If judging by TFA, yes :)

    @Ninjabeans
    He will be the first Gray Jedi based on the precursor of the Jedis, the Je'daii order who used both sides of the Force :)
     
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i'm going to challenge you a little on this one.

    Luke has always been an idealistic hero and that's not going to change. good conquering evil is idealism at its finest.
    Ben staying in the grey remains an idealistic outcome: it's impossible perfect balance, it's peace.

    while i think Rogue One was made for a more mature audience (and therefore had darker, more ambiguous characters), it was still a film about idealism (people died for the possibility of victory).
    TFA even moreso.
     
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  11. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    I can agree to this. I thought that by idealistic you mean ***** dory merry go arround love story of bees butterflies and flowers. This is star wars. Love is a battlefield ..of two equals. That are both strong with the Force. And Force bonded by now ;)

    Luke was never interesting to me in OT. Han was my favorite. Maybe in ROTJ when he wears black and is defiant...i must admit i always get the goosebumps at You have failed your Highness. I will never turn to the Dark Side. I am a Jedi. Like my father before me....brrr...just at the thought of what kind of Jedi Ani really was :D
    Qui-Gon is my favorite from PT. And presuit Ani...


    Correct me if i am wrong but there is nothing idealistic with 'good' conquering the 'evil' with the same questionable methods? *uses quotes on purpose*
    I watched R1 and sometimes the difference between rebels and empire is very blurry indeed. Cassian pretty much says so outright.


    Idealistic is not that much engaging for people who see the world as it really is. A sithy place to live overall populated by ocasional beauty that can be found in some people. I liked the SW movies, but before TFA they were just ok...never epic....never made me feel the level of compassion or envolvement likeTFA did. And that happenned cuz of the bridge scene. No idealism there.

    Let us hope fore more of the same on 8 and 9...cuz that...is life.


    ETA: is h*nky a bad word suddenly? Why the hell is it starred out??? Enlish is not my native language :p
     
    #111 Dark Cutie, Dec 31, 2016
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  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i'm using idealism in its purest meaning: pursuit of an impossible goal. that's Star Wars. always has been.

    the only thing TFA does differently is that it focuses on the impact of its punches.
    in ANH Luke grieved for Obi-Wan for all of one moment before he moved on to pursue the fight.
    He was even less stricken by the death of the people who raised him.
    glossing over those points was merely expedient.

    TFA hones in on the tragedy. partly because Han's death means more to us as a character we've known for four films as opposed to Obi-Wan whom we only knew for most of one. also thematically TFA is specifically about human trauma (for Rey, for Ben, and even for Finn to a certain extent)--the OT was not. but neither of them are any less idealistic.

    And frankly neither is Rogue One. our characters are less "morally perfect", but in the end they do the perfect thing.
    even Cassian prevents Jyn from revenging herself on Krennic and she concedes. that, again, is absolute idealism in the classical sense.
     
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  13. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Hmmmm....i can see that. When stripped down to that basics... Guess I am an idealist afterall. But still...the circumstances are not so idealistic and the context can not be completely dismissed..imo.

    That sounds like a very professional opinion. Are you a student of human psyche? Or just a very intuitive being?
     
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    yes you are! hahaha
    the circumstances are not ideal, no of course not (that has to be the case in order for there to be conflict). it's just the character's actions that make Star Wars a saga about idealism. don't forget: in ANH Han walked away as an opportunist and a rogue, but he came back to save Luke. in TFA, he walked away from his marriage, his family, the New Republic. but he came back to try to save his son.

    my favorite part of Rogue One is when Cassian asks if Jyn thinks anyone is listening. they don't even know for sure if they were successful, but they're resigned to die hopeful anyway. they embrace it (almost literally). it's the stuff of high literary romance--absolutely idealistic in the most chivalric sense.

    hahaha thanks. i have a number of degrees in a number of things. but most importantly i just enjoy narrative analysis.
     
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  15. tm0910196

    tm0910196 Guest

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    I hope my post doesn't seem...exploitative...of the tragedy that was Carrie Fisher's passing, but I think that this unfortunate real-world event may have a direct influence on Kylo Ren returning to the light. Let me explain.

    We don't know, at this point, what the Star Wars team plans to do as far as Leia is concerned (i.e., what will change in Ep. 8 and what will have to be redone before things are started on Ep. 9). However, because her death was so recent, I doubt Lucasfilm would recast the role and/or do what they did in Rogue One and resort to CGI. It just seems like that would hurt everyone's sensibilities.

    If, then, Episode 8 is retooled to include the death of Leia, that would mean both of Kylo Ren's parents would be gone. And if Leia's death were to be at the hands of the First Order, I could completely see Kylo losing it. He'll have lost both his father and his mother in the interest of an organization - and a side of the Force - that he put misplaced trust in and which will have cost him dearly. In some way, although it might be seen as "taking advantage" of a real death, it would also allow the story to move forward on a more beautiful note and could, fictionally, be an homage to Carrie Fisher herself.

    Is all of this in completely bad taste? Am I crazy?
     
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  16. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Well shut up already then. Not many are privy of that info :p can't be revealing my secrets :D

    The conflict...oh my god...the conflict!!!

    Now you just want to make me cry :p
    Well tough...not gonna happen cuz I just put my make up on :p


    Such as? I am interested now :) presumingly you are not a baby :p
     
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  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i'm just going to hope he's already come home by the end of viii.

    i don't think Leia needs to die in the story just because Carrie Fisher died (and i hope she doesn't--let them figure out how to make it work).
    i also don't think it should impact Ben's arc--or doesn't have to.

    it seems like a part of his redemption is reconciling with the family by which he felt most betrayed. in a way Han has already atoned for Ben's hurts: he came for him, he forgave him. Leia bears a bigger part of the burden because it was her decision to hide the truth from him, her decision to send him to Luke, her failure to protect him or alert others to Snoke's presence, her failure to reconcile herself with Vader/Anakin. because of her actions Ben's formative years were likely very confusing to begin with.

    if they haven't reconciled in viii, the lack of it will be felt in ix.
    it was hard enough to not have closure between Luke and Han.
    it feels like so much more is riding on Ben's closure with his mother.
     
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  18. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    No, you're post doesn't seem exploitative. Not at all.

    I always thought Leia would be the key to Kylo's redemption. A reunion between Ben and his mother would have been powerful and emotional. This would have been the crucial moment of him deciding to turn back to the light or stay dark.
    We don't know if Kylo and Leia will meet in EPVIII, personally I don't think so. So his story - respectively his redemption arc - could drastically change now.

    Keep in mind there is still Luke left. Furthermore Chewie could play a major part in Kylo's redemption. But Leia's on going fate will still affect BenRen even though Carrie passed away.
     
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  19. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i see you touching that up ~ hahahaha!

    fiction and stage writing, for one. information sciences for another. english/theatre for a lesser third.
    thinking of getting a fourth in writing--phD? maybe. it's very tempting right now.

    hahaha ~ no, i am not a baby; probably old enough to be your mother.

    i hope Chewie doesn't get short shrift in this.
    we don't know for certain whether Chewie and Ben had a relationship, but there's a lot of headcanon out there that believes it pretty deeply.
     
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  20. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Ah you know me so well :D

    Wow...i feel humbled :) i approve


    I think we would be sisters sooner than mother and daughter...twin sisters ;)
    (I have a PhD :p)
     
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