SPECULATION Rendemption - Evidence For & Against A Return To Light

Depends on how you define relationship...

 

No disrespect to Chewie but I think the relationship between Ben and Chewie was like the relationship between a child and its pet. And this could be very important to the overall story.
Often children love their pets much more than adults love pets, they even see them as best friends. Beings which you can talk to et cetera.

If Kylo Ren has to face Chewie again, then there will definitely be some feelings...

 

there really is this tug-of-war in popular opinion whether young Ben was capable of having an affective relationship with anyone (interestingly, those frames of the cartoon demonstrate that--Chewie tries to comfort him, but he walks away).

Leia remembers Ben as a happy child, but i don't trust her memory necessarily--she blinkered herself into downplaying Snoke's attentions.

and we know Ben was troubled. and that he is lonely. given his awkward behavior in TFA, making friends doesn't seem like something that comes easy to him.

people in Ben's life love him, but he doesn't seem to understand, trust, or accept that. part and parcel of his own self-loathing.

 

He was probably a loner but not by his own choice. I think it wasn't easy to be the son of two war heroes. And I do think Ben got along with Chewie quite well, at least in his early years.
I would love to read about this.

 

i am torn between wanting to get more fill-in and just speculating on this. there are hints in Bloodline that Ben just did his own thing--regardless of others. that he had no interest in his father's work or his mother's politics. can't read too much into it, but Gray seems to suggest that Ben was inwardly focused.

the impression i get is of a sensitive kid with insane powers who doesn't know where he fits in the world and that conundrum isolates him (both because he feels different and also "better" than other people). lacking proper guidance, he becomes the over-privileged but neglected self-hating bully--primed to fall under the grooming influence of someone who will bring out the worst in him by giving him the wrong kind of attention.

i see this all the time and it's so desperately sad.

 

I wonder what the relationship between Ben and Luke looked like. It's quite possible his uncle could've understand him much better than his own parents.

#SaveBenSolo

 

this, we'll probably find out. in my head i think Luke was too gentle with him when he needed a firm hand.
i think Ben was difficult already by the time he got to Luke. not like Anakin was difficult with Obi-Wan, though.
i think Ben's anger and fear is a different kind of animal, especially if Snoke was prowling around in his subconscious.

Amen.

 

This falls in line with my own views on Ben's upbringing. In fact, your summary of Ben has inspired me to create the following ramble of mindless thoughts:

If I had to summarise the heart and soul of SW into a couple of sentences, it would be this:

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
- Martin Luther King Jr​

It's simple, yet gets to the core of what SW is about for me. Luke realised the power of these words just before he was about to kill his own father. Anakin, after many years of anger and hatred, freed himself when he came to terms with the truth about himself in the end as Vader, before he saved his son. However, Ben is yet to discover this. (Hopefully, not before it's too late!) Rey is another who is yet to discover this. Actually, it's the truth that all force-users we all - fiction or non-fiction, real or imaginary - must come to terms with, which is why those words resonate a lot with me personally.

I did say Ben hasn't discovered this yet, but in a way I believe he is beginning to. When Ben killed his father, when he tried to use darkness to drive out his own darkness, hate to drive out his own hate, he realised it didn't produce the results he was expecting (or the results Snoke had promised). It weakened him, contributing to his loss against Rey. It filled him with a greater sense of emptiness and plunged him further into darkness.

Some of the lyrics to this Metallica song I feel are very poignant to the mindset of Kylo, especially in the wake of killing Han.

"Things not what they used to be
Missing one inside of me
Deathly loss this can't be real
Cannot stand this hell I feel
Emptiness is filling me
To the point of agony
Growing darkness taking dawn
I was me but now, he's gone
No one but me can save myself, but its too late
Now I can't think, think why I should even try"​

I feel like Ben has probably, from an early age, always felt a heavy weight of expectation because of the fact he's more "special" than most. Special in regard to his family's history, and the power he has inherited. Even now as Kylo, I think he still feels the same weight of expectation from trying to fulfil the legacy of his grandfather. It burdens him greatly, and Snoke has capitalised on Ben's insecurities to the utmost.

When I look at the relationship between Snoke and Kylo, I don't see much in common. Really, Kylo appears to have more in common with Rey than he does Snoke. (If only he wasn't so blinded by his own anger and hatred he may fully realise this.) Although, I guess the same could apply the other way around too for Rey (that's where the EP8 "the Gospel according to Luke" may come in handy!)

The biggest thing Snoke and Kylo have in common is their desire to fulfill the legacy of Darth Vader. Even then, Snoke and Kylo differ greatly on their motivations for this - Kylo seems motivated by internalised fear, anger and a misguided sense of sentimentality (which Snoke has manipulated), whilst Snoke seems motivated to remove any threat that jeopardises his claim to dominate the force. So when people say that "Kylo is a wannabe Vader fanboy", well, that's kinda the whole point! How else was Snoke going to convince Ben to pledge his allegiance to him?

Do you really think Snoke lured Ben to the dark side by saying to him, "Join me and you will become as powerful as I am!"? Hell no! Snoke is a crippled ass force-user desperately in need of a walking stick. Plus, who the hell grows up aspiring to be like Snoke? I would almost guarantee that Snoke's main bargaining chip was Vader. "Join me, and I can teach you how to become as powerful as Darth Vader, your grandfather. Through me, you must avenge his murder!" From the get go, Snoke has encouraged Kylo's Vader fascination, and it's in Snoke's best interests to allow Kylo to fully emanate Vader.

"A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment–had the father killed the son–the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”

“The elements align, Kylo Ren. You alone are caught in the winds of the storm. Your bond is not just to Vader, but to Skywalker himself. Leia…”
​

The dual legacy of Vader and Anakin hinges on the outcome of Kylo. The legacy of Vader in particular appears to be a major underlying theme driving this story's conflict and, even beyond his death, Vader is a major source of motivation and influence for our characters. It is true that Kylo is desperate to finish what Vader started, but Snoke is even more hell-bent on doing so. Vader's legacy is the common link that binds the relationships between Snoke & Kylo, and Kylo & the Knights of Ren.

Snoke and Kylo's relationship looks to have been built on the premise that they will finish Vader's legacy. Both of them are using each other to fulfil this goal. Snoke seeks Kylo's power, and Kylo seeks Snoke's guidance. But I believe Kylo's bond to his grandfather outweighs his bond to Snoke. In terms of Kylo's loyalty, Snoke can't compete with Vader (and Snoke is aware of this).

(Ramble nearly over ), I do think Kylo will return to the light, but it will require for him to look past his own darkness and hate (which Snoke really has brought out the worst of), and to recognise his own light within himself and that he is capable to love. But also on the other side, it will require for others (Luke, Rey, Leia) to display their own light and love to bring out the best in Kylo - because that's what being a hero is all about.

And since I started with a quote, I will end with a quote.

"People must learn to hate,
and if they can learn to hate,
they can be taught to love,
for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite..”
~ Nelson Mandela~​

 

so much awesome in this post i can barely even think of a coherent response.

i was thinking about Snoke and Ren's relationship yesterday after i posted that and you have laid it all out so very cleanly.
and this is exactly what i mean when i talk about Snoke making Ben complicit in his own "abuse".

Snoke has convinced Ben that he needs his guidance to honor Vader's legacy--and you're absolutely right.
Snoke and Ren Ben want very different things but both see in each other the means to get them.
it's the degree to which Ren understands he's just being used to no good end that he has yet to come to terms with.

we know from the encounter on the bridge that he fears it's true and that shame keeps him mired under Snoke.
hopefully his utter failure to make anything like progress after killing his father will demonstrate how wrong his path is.
i suspect Snoke's further "training" will confuse him further at the opening of VIII, but i also have all faith that he'll get there: he'll see what Anakin's legacy truly is.

in a weird way, the problem with Ren Ben is that he's not wrong, fundamentally.
he really is destined to finish what his grandfather started.
he's just going about it in the worst way possible under the direction of evil.

 

<3

<3

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2017 ---

I was re reading Bloodline again last night, and in doing so, wondered even if Darth Vader was brought up at all when he was young. We know that he didn't know until it got out that Darth Vader was Luke and Leia's bio father publicly, at least we can assume that. Did he know that they were tortured, carbon frozen, etc. I am sure Luke must have brought up the hand at some point, but we don't know. Also on the Chewie front. I am sure they visited, or Chewie occasionally visited, but I don't imagine the was that close to Ben in general.

 

this is such a great question! there's the "lore" that's sprung up about Darth Vader and what happened in his last moments and it seems like Ben would have had access to all that. but the fact of Luke "killing" Vader is also a persistent rumor. and it's not likely they talked about what actually happened because that would have led to too many questions that Leia was not prepared to answer.

was Vader a forbidden topic in their household? if the intention was to tell him "someday" when Leia was ready, they might have avoided any mention of his torture as well. and if Ben was early to fall under Centrist influence (through Snoke or his exposure to the political tempers of the time), it's very possible that he grew up with a very warped sense of "history being written by the victors". if he was also exposed to corruption and galactic mismanagement in the New Republic, that could easily strengthen his Centrist sympathies.

all of which is quite the powder keg for a reveal about Vader that no one managed with any sensitivity.

 

What exactly is "a return to light"? If this means a return to good or goodness, why don't people just say so, instead of resorting to this rigid use of color as a metaphor?

 

It's a Star Wars expression, and it's directly from The Force Awakens...

 

Light means good!!!!!

 

^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd like to think those are Leia's hands.