1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

SPECULATION Rendemption - Evidence For & Against A Return To Light

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2015
    Posts:
    399
    Likes Received:
    2,190
    Trophy Points:
    11,492
    Credits:
    2,843
    Ratings:
    +3,155 / 5 / -1
    Depends on how you define relationship... :p

    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 7
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  2. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Original Original x 1
  3. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Posts:
    4,793
    Likes Received:
    102,360
    Trophy Points:
    171,517
    Credits:
    55,533
    Ratings:
    +110,873 / 173 / -32
    No disrespect to Chewie but I think the relationship between Ben and Chewie was like the relationship between a child and its pet. And this could be very important to the overall story.
    Often children love their pets much more than adults love pets, they even see them as best friends. Beings which you can talk to et cetera.

    If Kylo Ren has to face Chewie again, then there will definitely be some feelings...
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Original Original x 2
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,358
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,837
    Ratings:
    +157,681 / 65 / -7
    there really is this tug-of-war in popular opinion whether young Ben was capable of having an affective relationship with anyone (interestingly, those frames of the cartoon demonstrate that--Chewie tries to comfort him, but he walks away).

    Leia remembers Ben as a happy child, but i don't trust her memory necessarily--she blinkered herself into downplaying Snoke's attentions.

    and we know Ben was troubled. and that he is lonely. given his awkward behavior in TFA, making friends doesn't seem like something that comes easy to him.

    people in Ben's life love him, but he doesn't seem to understand, trust, or accept that. part and parcel of his own self-loathing.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Wise Wise x 3
    • Original Original x 1
  5. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Posts:
    4,793
    Likes Received:
    102,360
    Trophy Points:
    171,517
    Credits:
    55,533
    Ratings:
    +110,873 / 173 / -32
    He was probably a loner but not by his own choice. I think it wasn't easy to be the son of two war heroes. And I do think Ben got along with Chewie quite well, at least in his early years.
    I would love to read about this.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Original Original x 1
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,358
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,837
    Ratings:
    +157,681 / 65 / -7
    i am torn between wanting to get more fill-in and just speculating on this. there are hints in Bloodline that Ben just did his own thing--regardless of others. that he had no interest in his father's work or his mother's politics. can't read too much into it, but Gray seems to suggest that Ben was inwardly focused.

    the impression i get is of a sensitive kid with insane powers who doesn't know where he fits in the world and that conundrum isolates him (both because he feels different and also "better" than other people). lacking proper guidance, he becomes the over-privileged but neglected self-hating bully--primed to fall under the grooming influence of someone who will bring out the worst in him by giving him the wrong kind of attention.

    i see this all the time and it's so desperately sad.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Wise Wise x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Posts:
    4,793
    Likes Received:
    102,360
    Trophy Points:
    171,517
    Credits:
    55,533
    Ratings:
    +110,873 / 173 / -32
    I wonder what the relationship between Ben and Luke looked like. It's quite possible his uncle could've understand him much better than his own parents.

    #SaveBenSolo
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,358
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,837
    Ratings:
    +157,681 / 65 / -7
    this, we'll probably find out. in my head i think Luke was too gentle with him when he needed a firm hand.
    i think Ben was difficult already by the time he got to Luke. not like Anakin was difficult with Obi-Wan, though.
    i think Ben's anger and fear is a different kind of animal, especially if Snoke was prowling around in his subconscious.

    Amen.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Original Original x 1
  9. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2015
    Posts:
    399
    Likes Received:
    2,190
    Trophy Points:
    11,492
    Credits:
    2,843
    Ratings:
    +3,155 / 5 / -1
    This falls in line with my own views on Ben's upbringing. In fact, your summary of Ben has inspired me to create the following ramble of mindless thoughts:D:

    If I had to summarise the heart and soul of SW into a couple of sentences, it would be this:

    "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
    Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
    - Martin Luther King Jr

    It's simple, yet gets to the core of what SW is about for me. Luke realised the power of these words just before he was about to kill his own father. Anakin, after many years of anger and hatred, freed himself when he came to terms with the truth about himself in the end as Vader, before he saved his son. However, Ben is yet to discover this. (Hopefully, not before it's too late!) Rey is another who is yet to discover this. Actually, it's the truth that all force-users we all - fiction or non-fiction, real or imaginary - must come to terms with, which is why those words resonate a lot with me personally.

    I did say Ben hasn't discovered this yet, but in a way I believe he is beginning to. When Ben killed his father, when he tried to use darkness to drive out his own darkness, hate to drive out his own hate, he realised it didn't produce the results he was expecting (or the results Snoke had promised). It weakened him, contributing to his loss against Rey. It filled him with a greater sense of emptiness and plunged him further into darkness.

    Some of the lyrics to this Metallica song I feel are very poignant to the mindset of Kylo, especially in the wake of killing Han.

    "Things not what they used to be
    Missing one inside of me
    Deathly loss this can't be real
    Cannot stand this hell I feel
    Emptiness is filling me
    To the point of agony
    Growing darkness taking dawn
    I was me but now, he's gone
    No one but me can save myself, but its too late
    Now I can't think, think why I should even try"

    I feel like Ben has probably, from an early age, always felt a heavy weight of expectation because of the fact he's more "special" than most. Special in regard to his family's history, and the power he has inherited. Even now as Kylo, I think he still feels the same weight of expectation from trying to fulfil the legacy of his grandfather. It burdens him greatly, and Snoke has capitalised on Ben's insecurities to the utmost.

    When I look at the relationship between Snoke and Kylo, I don't see much in common. Really, Kylo appears to have more in common with Rey than he does Snoke. (If only he wasn't so blinded by his own anger and hatred he may fully realise this.) Although, I guess the same could apply the other way around too for Rey (that's where the EP8 "the Gospel according to Luke" may come in handy!)

    The biggest thing Snoke and Kylo have in common is their desire to fulfill the legacy of Darth Vader. Even then, Snoke and Kylo differ greatly on their motivations for this - Kylo seems motivated by internalised fear, anger and a misguided sense of sentimentality (which Snoke has manipulated), whilst Snoke seems motivated to remove any threat that jeopardises his claim to dominate the force. So when people say that "Kylo is a wannabe Vader fanboy", well, that's kinda the whole point! How else was Snoke going to convince Ben to pledge his allegiance to him?

    Do you really think Snoke lured Ben to the dark side by saying to him, "Join me and you will become as powerful as I am!"? Hell no! Snoke is a crippled ass force-user desperately in need of a walking stick. Plus, who the hell grows up aspiring to be like Snoke? I would almost guarantee that Snoke's main bargaining chip was Vader. "Join me, and I can teach you how to become as powerful as Darth Vader, your grandfather. Through me, you must avenge his murder!" From the get go, Snoke has encouraged Kylo's Vader fascination, and it's in Snoke's best interests to allow Kylo to fully emanate Vader.

    "A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment–had the father killed the son–the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”

    “The elements align, Kylo Ren. You alone are caught in the winds of the storm. Your bond is not just to Vader, but to Skywalker himself. Leia…”
    The dual legacy of Vader and Anakin hinges on the outcome of Kylo. The legacy of Vader in particular appears to be a major underlying theme driving this story's conflict and, even beyond his death, Vader is a major source of motivation and influence for our characters. It is true that Kylo is desperate to finish what Vader started, but Snoke is even more hell-bent on doing so. Vader's legacy is the common link that binds the relationships between Snoke & Kylo, and Kylo & the Knights of Ren.

    Snoke and Kylo's relationship looks to have been built on the premise that they will finish Vader's legacy. Both of them are using each other to fulfil this goal. Snoke seeks Kylo's power, and Kylo seeks Snoke's guidance. But I believe Kylo's bond to his grandfather outweighs his bond to Snoke. In terms of Kylo's loyalty, Snoke can't compete with Vader (and Snoke is aware of this).

    (Ramble nearly over :D), I do think Kylo will return to the light, but it will require for him to look past his own darkness and hate (which Snoke really has brought out the worst of), and to recognise his own light within himself and that he is capable to love. But also on the other side, it will require for others (Luke, Rey, Leia) to display their own light and love to bring out the best in Kylo - because that's what being a hero is all about.

    And since I started with a quote, I will end with a quote.

    "People must learn to hate,
    and if they can learn to hate,
    they can be taught to love,
    for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite..”
    ~ Nelson Mandela~
     
    #129 Fuzzball, Jan 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
    • Great Post Great Post x 7
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,358
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,837
    Ratings:
    +157,681 / 65 / -7
    so much awesome in this post i can barely even think of a coherent response.

    i was thinking about Snoke and Ren's relationship yesterday after i posted that and you have laid it all out so very cleanly.
    and this is exactly what i mean when i talk about Snoke making Ben complicit in his own "abuse".

    Snoke has convinced Ben that he needs his guidance to honor Vader's legacy--and you're absolutely right.
    Snoke and Ren Ben want very different things but both see in each other the means to get them.
    it's the degree to which Ren understands he's just being used to no good end that he has yet to come to terms with.

    we know from the encounter on the bridge that he fears it's true and that shame keeps him mired under Snoke.
    hopefully his utter failure to make anything like progress after killing his father will demonstrate how wrong his path is.
    i suspect Snoke's further "training" will confuse him further at the opening of VIII, but i also have all faith that he'll get there: he'll see what Anakin's legacy truly is.

    in a weird way, the problem with Ren Ben is that he's not wrong, fundamentally.
    he really is destined to finish what his grandfather started.
    he's just going about it in the worst way possible under the direction of evil.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Original Original x 1
  11. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Posts:
    1,416
    Likes Received:
    22,132
    Trophy Points:
    148,617
    Credits:
    16,784
    Ratings:
    +24,628 / 20 / -3
    :( <3

    :( <3
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2017 ---
    I was re reading Bloodline again last night, and in doing so, wondered even if Darth Vader was brought up at all when he was young. We know that he didn't know until it got out that Darth Vader was Luke and Leia's bio father publicly, at least we can assume that. Did he know that they were tortured, carbon frozen, etc. I am sure Luke must have brought up the hand at some point, but we don't know. Also on the Chewie front. I am sure they visited, or Chewie occasionally visited, but I don't imagine the was that close to Ben in general.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Original Original x 1
  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,358
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,837
    Ratings:
    +157,681 / 65 / -7
    this is such a great question! there's the "lore" that's sprung up about Darth Vader and what happened in his last moments and it seems like Ben would have had access to all that. but the fact of Luke "killing" Vader is also a persistent rumor. and it's not likely they talked about what actually happened because that would have led to too many questions that Leia was not prepared to answer.

    was Vader a forbidden topic in their household? if the intention was to tell him "someday" when Leia was ready, they might have avoided any mention of his torture as well. and if Ben was early to fall under Centrist influence (through Snoke or his exposure to the political tempers of the time), it's very possible that he grew up with a very warped sense of "history being written by the victors". if he was also exposed to corruption and galactic mismanagement in the New Republic, that could easily strengthen his Centrist sympathies.

    all of which is quite the powder keg for a reveal about Vader that no one managed with any sensitivity.
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Original Original x 1
  13. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Posts:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,510
    Trophy Points:
    6,192
    Credits:
    2,523
    Ratings:
    +2,410 / 394 / -178
    What exactly is "a return to light"? If this means a return to good or goodness, why don't people just say so, instead of resorting to this rigid use of color as a metaphor?
     
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
  14. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Posts:
    1,997
    Likes Received:
    36,573
    Trophy Points:
    157,667
    Credits:
    25,644
    Ratings:
    +39,399 / 12 / -2
    It's a Star Wars expression, and it's directly from The Force Awakens...
     
    • Wise Wise x 4
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Posts:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    8,842
    Credits:
    3,939
    Ratings:
    +4,429 / 293 / -150
    Light means good!!!!!:rolleyes:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Sith in the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Posts:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    47,188
    Trophy Points:
    171,477
    Credits:
    14,860
    Ratings:
    +53,955 / 9 / -3
    8e7afa59accac1a7194d40a5e9cbff44.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Original Original x 1
  17. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Posts:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    8,842
    Credits:
    3,939
    Ratings:
    +4,429 / 293 / -150
    ^^^^^^^^^^^

    I'd like to think those are Leia's hands.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2014
    Posts:
    9,542
    Likes Received:
    41,688
    Trophy Points:
    170,329
    Credits:
    42,807
    Ratings:
    +51,966 / 127 / -63
    Given the place that one of the hands seem to be reaching on his face, I imagine that it's supposed to represent Han.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  19. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,221
    Trophy Points:
    13,167
    Credits:
    7,253
    Ratings:
    +5,168 / 26 / -7
    I came to the realisation a thread catelogueing potential "evidence" of "redemption" was more tricky than just examining the possibility of Kylo embracing the "light". I also thought "return to light" was general enough to cover the possiblilties of Kylo embracing his "light side", the "light side" (for those who read things that way), or the possiblility Kylo may adopt the use of both the light and the dark.

    You make a good point though and I wholeheartedly agree that the light/dark dichotomy isn't particularly nuanced. I expressly avoid the use of spatial metaphors like "right" and "left" in politics as such terminology seems far too vague and generalised to be helpful! Like other forms of symbology and re-presentation, metaphors dis-count detail, can create false dichotomies, be open to misinterpretation, and be outright dangerous when clear communication is required.

    I guess the ambiguity suits the film medium and maybe the franchise will explore a more nuanced approach in films to come?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  20. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Sith in the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Posts:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    47,188
    Trophy Points:
    171,477
    Credits:
    14,860
    Ratings:
    +53,955 / 9 / -3
    I think you're both right :)
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
Loading...

Share This Page