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SPECULATION Rendemption - Evidence For & Against A Return To Light

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    I just read a great and insightful post on Reddit (link). I think it's worth sharing here:

    First comes the day
    Then comes the night.
    After the darkness
    Shines through the light.
    The difference, they say,
    Is only made right
    By the resolving of gray
    Through refined Jedi sight.
    Thus begins the novelization of The Force Awakens

    A Star is Born

    The poem consists of two stanzas with four lines each. The first stanza of this poem has a cadence while bouncing between light and dark.

    Parallel lines with four syllables each set the meter for the stanza.

    First comes the day (Anakin is born)
    Then comes the night. (Anakin becomes Vader)
    Next a disruption in the rhythm comes crashing in with a five syllable line and a different arrangement of words.

    After the darkness (After the end of Vader)
    That discordant line creates a climax in the stanza. The contrast helps emphasize the conclusion which returns to the meter of the first two lines.

    Shines through the light. (What is left of Anakin resurfaces from the depths of Vader thanks to Luke)
    The stanza ends, and the poem shifts into a completely different meter and form. After the first stanza's rhythmic recounting, the second stanza slides into a prophetic explanation.

    Sons and Stars

    If we take the first stanza as a recount of history, “the difference” implies the outcomes of the present will differ from the past. Additionally, the answer to a subtraction equation is also named the difference. That disruptive line about darkness exceeded the meter by one. So you would have a difference of one darkness. The idea of a light that “shines through” also suggests a little bit of illumination piercing overwhelming darkness. In the end, the events of before have left darkness behind as “the difference” that needs to be “made right.” Anakin left a mess that still needs fixing.

    Kylo Ren/Ben Solo appears to represent the grey. Star Wars has many characters “resolving” to follow a path of either light or dark. In both the movie and PR campaign Ren/Ben has been portrayed as torn between the two sides. “Resolving” lies in his future.

    More than just decisiveness, "resolving" holds an intriguing double meaning that reflects the duality of the Light and Dark sides. "Resolving" carries both a definition of separating and unifying. As mentioned previously, choosing a path displays resolution through divergence. On the other hand, events resolve to bring their disparity into a unified conclusion.

    In relation to “sight," "resolving" combines these contrary ideas. The resolution of an image distinguishes individual parts, but that separation aids in providing a clear overall picture. Think of bringing something into focus by adjusting the lens. It is a definition of both separation and cohesion. Rather than one dominating the other, perhaps the resolution of light and dark involves identifying those two parts and then bringing them into a harmonic whole.

    Only one Jedi exists in The Force Awakens - Luke. He will provide the “Jedi sight” that will begin to make things right (hello Lor San Tekka). However, that Jedi sight needs to be “refined” before things can truly be “made right.” Refining implies a meticulous process with multiple steps. The reinterpretation of the Jedi Code experiences such a process as it passes through multiple generations of perspective. Luke applied his own opinions to the teachings of Yoda and Obi-Wan. Those two were already changed by The Clone Wars. Now, Rey must filter Luke's lessons into a further “refined Jedi sight” to resolve the grey.

    Resolving for sight very specifically has an association with lenses. To create a lens, a clear material is “refined” into the proper shape. From a certain point of view, Kyber crystals are that clear material. Observe Chirrut's words in Rogue One: “the brightest stars have hearts of Kyber.” Stars tend to be what a system of planets gravitate towards and revolve around. Heroes attract a cadre in much the same way. Rey is the brightest hero with a heart of Kyber. That heart will undergo a meticulous process, much like a lens, as she refines the Jedi Code within herself. Kylo Ren, representing all the grey conflict in Star Wars, will pass through Rey's refined Jedi-Kyber heart. With the aid of that corrective lens, he will see clearly the two warring sides and unify them. The Force will be one, and Ben one with the Force.

    Stardust
    • “Sight” works by light passing “through” a lens. This applies to both natural eyes and synthetic image capture.
    • Ahsoka healed damaged Kyber crystals. If Kyber is the heart of our stars, someone is probably getting healed(it could be anyone really).
     
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  2. Gray-Jedi

    Gray-Jedi Clone

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    A redemption for Ben Solo would be interesting if it's done well. It will give Han Solo's sacrifice more meaning, and his death not to be in vain. If Kylo becomes evil, well what a great disservice to Han Solo, and to Leia who had already lost her family and home planet.

    A redemption without dying, plus an atonement would be fitting. Death is too final, easy and a rehash of Darth Vader.
     
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  3. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Ren does not need to be redeemed or atonened before anyone else but himself. Not in the Universe in which Ressistance is doing Sith like they did in R1.
    Return to the light? Nah...towards the light...yes...but only enough to keep him in balance with his Darkness.
     
  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    there is one theory out there that it's Snoke who will be healed; they won't kill him, but return him to a pure state to destroy the evil.

    i think that's a really interesting idea. i don't like the notion of Ren Ben being redeemed only to use violence to "fix" the galaxy. particularly against Snoke who has wounded him so deeply--it ends up feeling more like vengeance than justice.
    that wasn't Luke's way 30 years ago and i hope it won't be his way again now.
     
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  5. Gray-Jedi

    Gray-Jedi Clone

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    [​IMG]


    "Kylo faced his father inside the First Order’s Starkiller Base, and struck Han down with his lightsaber. But this shocking act of patricide didn’t make the former Ben Solo feel stronger – somehow he felt weaker. Rey then bested Kylo in a lightsaber duel, sparing his life. Kylo Ren had hoped to end the conflicts that caused him so such pain, but found he remained at war with himself, more lost than ever. "

    Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/kylo-ren

    People thought killing his father will push Ben Solo permanently to the Dark side. Apparently not.
     
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  6. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    I've never heard of that theory. What do you mean by "pure state"?
     
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  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i made up that phrase ~ i guess what i mean by it is that whatever Snoke is, he's been corrupted as a result of his injuries, for example.
    maybe he's an angel and took a hit from some Sith something or other. And so he's turned into a hungry fishy-eyed toilet monster as a result.
    Luke heals him of his wound and restores his balance, then they can course correct everything else.

    this kind of goes back to the Arthurian themes were were discussing in other threads and the idea of the Fisher King.
    Luke is the Fisher King and needs to be healed, but maybe Snoke is too. the whole of the gffa in the ST feels like walking wounded.
    so why shouldn't healing be the order of the day?
     
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  8. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    Interesting thoughts. I once leaned to a theory about Snoke that he could have been sthg like a "damaged" (body and soul) ancient force prohet of the elder days. Maybe the prophecy about "the balance of the force" was his own and all of his former goals get perverted after a great suffering. A kind of Anakin archetype but with no redemption until now. Therefore I really like the theory you are taking about.
     
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  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    from the first time i saw TFA i have felt like we're dealing with a Dark Crystal narrative. something is broken and it's destroying the galaxy as a result. and the resolution is to heal the break.

    and i mentioned elsewhere a long time ago, that i wouldn't mind if that meant sinking a sharp shard into the crevice in Snoke's forehead, but yes, actually, i think it would be more interesting if literal healing was the answer to this galaxy's ills.
     
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  10. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    I've never heard of the Fisher King either, but that's interesting. You Stormtroopers are getting too intelligent for me these days. :D

    But from what I understand, personally, I don't like the idea of Snoke being "healed". Why should Snoke get exactly what he wants after killing billions of innocent people? If he really wanted healed, then he shoud've focused his time, money, power and effort on that rather than committing the worst genocide in the history of the galaxy. It doesn't sit right with me. However, I'm not totally against it as I don't know Snoke's backstory or his future intentions, but I simply don't trust him at all.

    In all honesty, I think Snoke would continue to be an evil ******* no matter what state he's in, and I think he's fully responsible for his own corruption. I believe his own selfish desire to become powerful with the dark side has turned him into a monster (he just happens to have the outward appearance of one as well now)

    Kylo is different for me. At least he has shown a semblance of humanity. Luke or Rey may be able to get through to him, but Snoke I don't see it.
     
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  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i guess in this version of things Snoke is the Winter Wizard and Luke is Kris Kringle. it's less a matter of Snoke getting what he wants than everyone just doing the right thing. i mean, maybe Snoke doesn't belong in this galaxy and healing him is about finding a way to send him where he belongs. it's just a thought. in my darkest heart i want him punished in heinous and cruel ways. but that's not the path of goodness ~ hahahaha

    i don't want Snoke to be sympathetic; i agree that he's evil and needs to be dealt with (and absolutely maybe he doesn't want to be healed, but too bad!).
    so the idea of healing isn't about him so much as it's about the compassion with which our heroes confront and combat him.

    the Fisher King thing is interesting and i have been eyeing it closely. depending on which writer you're looking at, there are some very compelling parallels, with Luke being the King and Rey being Parsifal and Ren being the heathen Saracen who, interestingly enough, is literally half black and half white (like, skintone-wise) and is converted to "Christian good" by Parsifal. And the King is wounded and the only thing that can cure him is that which caused the wound. in the story, it's the Spear of Longinus, which, of course, has analog in Anakin's lightsaber.
     
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  12. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Sith in the North
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    I've finally fully caught up here. So, here we go...

    This is a great point, and one I honestly hadn't considered earlier. Sorry for being 3 months late to the party, but I really wanted to expound on this.

    Kylo's abandonment by his family, real or perceived (probably a combination of the two), and assuming that was combined with him learning the truth about his grandfather, constitutes betrayal. His entire belief system is shaken. His Jedi faith, and that in his family, is destroyed after he realizes those closest to him have been lying to him. He falls to the dark side, and turns to Snoke for guidance and training. We have yet to learn whether this was done as a calculated course of action or it was on an impulse, before he had the chance to consider the "why" of all of this... but judging from what we do know about him, I think it's safe to say it was more of a knee-jerk reaction.

    Rey's abandonment by her family, absolutely real (but for what reasons??) leaves her as a glowing ball of optimism: "They'll be back for me. Someday." She doesn't seem to feel betrayed in the slightest. And how many of us could say the same thing, if we were left alone and saw the only family we ever knew fly away without us? I would be broken. I can't say that I would have made it nearly as long as Rey, living on my own, earning a fairly honest living, hoping and expecting my family to return to me any day now. Even when presented with a new life path, a one in a million chance, (twice at that, within minutes!) by both Han and Maz, she rejects this and holds to that optimism and loyalty to her family.

    Two people, presented with very similar situations, end up on complete opposite sides of the spectrum. But why? The quick answer I point to is self-confidence. Rey absolutely is confident in herself, and her abilities, what she knows and even what she doesn't. She doesn't need to be told how to pilot the Falcon, or mind trick a stormtrooper, or wield a saber, she just needs to believe in herself that she is capable. And she does.

    To me Kylo Ren doesn't exactly exude self-confidence. More like he is trying way too hard to make up for it. While Rey can easily take to training, Ben, on the other hand, probably went all "Luke on Dagobah" while under Luke's guidance and was full of doubt throughout the process. This is pure speculation of course, but for someone who doubts their abilities to then doubt their family, it wouldn't be hard for Snoke to feed on that doubt and recruit him as an apprentice. Or, whatever it is Snoke is up to. You can see Kylo's shaken confidence in every encounter he has with Rey.

    You can't dismiss the parallels in these two's stories, and I don't expect either story to end without the influence of the other. There are several scenarios I can think of for Kylo's Rendemption, but just about every one of them involves Rey. Luke and Leia will surely be part of the equation, but I wholeheartedly believe that Rey will be the deciding factor. She can help him find the confidence to leave that darkness behind. She is someone Ben can relate to (or, be related to ;) ) and there is so much he can learn from her. If he can see how someone who was abandoned and had no hope can still come out on top, it could be just the push he needs to get himself on the right path. I know it might sound crazy that if Luke failed with him, Leia failed with him, Han failed with him, how can Rey save him? I feel the answer is that its not any one of these people... It's all of them, together. Rey is just that missing piece to the puzzle.
     
    #152 DarthSnow, Feb 17, 2017
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    love all the things you say about Rey here ~ and the contrast in their personalities with regards to their confidence. Rey has doubts, but she pushes through them because she has to: she's always relied on herself to get by. Ren Ben seems to need someone/something to validate him; he doesn't know who he is and is struggling still to find his place. Rey is too, but she's much better prepared (because of her trials) to self-actualize.

    this is part of why i argue that Rey can't be blood related. Ren Ben has no reason to trust his family--at all.
    sure he loves Grandpa, but the rest of them have wounded him deeply.
    it's ultimately going to take an outsider to say hey, the whole galaxy isn't out to get you, you're stronger than you think.
    he might listen to Rey before he'd listen to any of them. but if he found out she was one of them, seems like the door would just slam shut again.
     
    #153 FN-3263827, Feb 17, 2017
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  14. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    There is a very important factor missing in how these two lonely kids coped with being abandoned by their families though. And that factor is Snoke who poisoned and manipulated how Ben was feeling from most probably even before he was born. Now that is a huge factor that tips the scales and makes Ben even more sympathetic than he already is...It is actually an astonishing feat that after so many years being under the influence of the creep Snoke/Snake, Ben still feels some pull to the Light, isn't it.
     
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  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    it's a testament to the things that maybe Han and Leia did right? and his own inherent goodness?

    a lot of people say Ren is trying so hard to be bad like his Grandfather, but i think the opposite is true.
    he's trying so hard to be good but his discernment is all warped by his emotional weaknesses and the fishy-eyed toilet monster who has preyed on him.
    killing his father is a terrible terrible thing. but Ren Ben thinks no sacrifice is too small to do "right" for the good of the galaxy.
    that could be a very powerful thing once he figures out what true "right" is.
     
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  16. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Sith in the North
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    Absolutely the point I was trying to make! Once Ren is free of Snoke's influence, and he is again allowed to think for himself (and rationally) then he will be free to begin his path of redemption.

    Right. He doesn't seem to fit in with his family. Or rather, he feels ostracized, perhaps? Almost ironically, his family feels they are doing everything they can to protect him, but instead they end up creating the foundation for Ben's own undoing.

    Part of me thinks this is why he is so infatuated with Vader. He can't trust the family that he knows. The only other family member he can connect to, and who hasn't betrayed him, is Vader.

    Agree, there is some concern there. But, adversely, if he is related to Rey, it could do wonders in rebuilding a relationship with his family. If he sees her forgiving their family for leaving her behind, why can't he begin to do the same?

    It really is. And I think the biggest piece of evidence for his eventual redemption. He just needs to fully rediscover the faith in himself that his family still holds for him.

    Like the late, great George Michael put it, You gotta have faith!
    :D
     
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  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i think he ostracized himself, whether by Snoke's influence or his own introversion, and they allowed it.
    and yes, ironically they feel like they were doing everything in their power to protect him, and he likely thinks they failed to protect him in the most essential ways he actually needed it most (i.e. Snoke)!
    and yet she would also be one more thing they hid from him.
    and if they seem to love her more or support her side of things, even worse.
    he becomes twice rejected and misunderstood.
     
    #157 FN-3263827, Feb 17, 2017
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  18. Anubis556

    Anubis556 Rebel Trooper

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    I think I'm of the minority that would actually like him to be redeemed...not fully in the eyes of our heros but will be around for the next trilogy at least...Like Zuko in avatar the last airbender!

    Assuming that Rey isn't a secret Skywalker or adopts the name (neither of these do I want)...or that there isn't a secret son in hiding with some other Jedi padawans (my hope).

    Kylo is the only heir to the skywalker blood line, and needs to be around to carry it forward.
     
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