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Resistance caught between two villains?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Sparafucile, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I've been thinking about this for a while.

    My understanding based on the bit of world building we've seen so far in the ST is that the New Republic mothballed their fleet soon after the Empire was "destroyed", following some crazy ideology that evil was gone for good. That speaks to me of willfully ignorant.

    Leia is disenchanted with the Republic and seems somewhat ignored, if not seen as some sort of war monger.

    Her assessment is correct, the FO comes back and the Republic is ill prepared as she had been advocating for years.

    A lot of people suggest that IX should be split into two movies and I'm not a fan of that idea, but I wouldn't mind if they retired the trilogy format all together if they pursued a larger game. Imagine if the Republic is just as evil as the FO, just opposite. Most people don't agree with either extreme, but are forced by extremism on both sides.

    I think of this because so few people seem to want to stand up to defend the Republic and I question why that is. Maybe people have lost faith in it, much in the same way they lost faith in the Old Republic? Maybe some kind of extremism now takes hold of the Republic to fight back but takes it too far against the FO, to the point it rejects any questioning of its right to rule?

    Then our new heroes are stuck in the middle, between two behemoths, yet the people technically stand with them, more moderate in their views and needing to put both extremes to rest.

    I doubt we'll see this, but I would love to see something like this. I think it would reflect our real world lives as SW often comments on, but it wouldn't have to be so on the nose. Call it Nazi Germany (to which we've already got a lot of resemblance in the FO) vs Communist Soviet Union.

    Heck, maybe Kylo leaves the FO, ousted even, and Rey takes the lead of the Republic as their Stalin or Mao, while the KoR keep the lead of the FO. Maybe this is how Kylo redeems himself, by recognizing that both extremes are wrong. Imagine the dilemma in Finn and Poe recognizing that Rey becomes too self righteous and it's indeed Kylo who's the more reasonable one?

    So a time jump for IX, and here we get some nuance, and Luke goes away as Ben does for Luke. Then they develop Rey hailed as a warrior hero queen, trying to deal with all that attention and adulation. Kylo is in exile, Finn and Poe are in Rey's military, and the KoR introduced in IX lead the FO. The next three films, it could even be seen as another trilogy if they want, but it takes the idea of the Resistance, with Lourdes character pointing things out to Finn and Poe, who had themselves had misgivings of Rey's actions.

    I think it would be pretty awesome and an interesting commentary on our times as well.
     
    #1 Sparafucile, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    not sure where you got the idea that the fleet was mothballed. it was definitely pared down a bit, but then pretty much destroyed in the Hosnian explosion.
    Leia's "disenchantment" with the New Republic was the result of their failure to balance the ongoing tensions between the Populists (led by former Rebellion folks like herself who wanted to demilitarize, etc.), and the Centrists (post-Imperial supporters of more militarization, and an emphasis on law and order ~ which so far as we know is what fueled support for the FO to operate unchecked).

    the New Republic was a failure. it was still trying to find its legs when the FO destroyed it. there is no Republic now.

    you seem to be mixing the Rebellion/Resistance and the New Republic. those are two completely different things. yes, the Rebellion won, but what it created in terms of government was a mess of politicking, extremism, corruption, and idealism that couldn't find a way to get along. Leia was ousted from the Senate due to her connection to Darth Vader and from there realized the power that the people who would become the FO were amassing. in the years leading up to TFA, she's been trying to gather evidence against them and raise concerns to bring to the New Republic that will be taken seriously. up until TFA, the FO was quietly doing their thing. they were literally on nobodies radar as a serious threat.

    the details of all of this is not in the movies; it's basically summed up in the crawl and in tiny snippets of dialogue from Lor San Tekka and others.
    Bloodline really is essential reading if you want to understand what's going on politically in galaxy. i know people don't like that, but there it is.

    so again, there is no Republic.
    there may be scattered leadership who didn't perish in the Hosnian system, but the galaxy is without rule (there are no two behemoths).
    Kylo Ren has basically declared himself Supreme Leader and clearly intends to govern; whether people will follow him remains to be seen.

    i do agree with you, however, about extremism as a theme that needs to be addressed.

    the fight in ix is likely to be a fight against either some greater unknown threat, or some faction of the FO that goes rogue.
    already the leadership there is at odds ideologically.
    the old imperial remnants want to restore their former glory.
    the young FO leadership wants to create new order without the imperial corruption and bureaucracy.
    and who knows what the new Supreme Leader wants. lasting peace, balance, an end to decades of retributions on both sides? he wants to burn it all down.

    i think that's how this tiny Resistance (now Rebellion) will win: turning the FO one way or another.
    the problem with the New Republic, as you mentioned, was that it was full of extremes ~ it lacked balance.
    the galaxy cannot be ruled by self-interested political parties. they have to learn to work together.
    Rey and Ren Ben exemplify this. only together could they could defeat Snoke.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I think a lot of people assumed after the defeat of the Empire a perfect government would arise but what happened was akin to what happened after most major geopolitical conflicts. A power vacuum. There was no plan or set idea of what to do by the rebellion and as @FN-3263827 said, it allowed the First Order to essentially grow unchecked and make a play for power. There are dozens of examples of this all throughout history when an authoritative regime is displaced by any means and then a new government is put in place only to be ousted themselves by another regime.
    You can google these power vacuums and see how similar they are to the described rise of the FO.
     
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  4. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I understand the Resistance is its own thing. I find there isn't much in the movies talking about world events, at least not as much as the other two trilogies (even if the OT doesn't have much itself, but as an intro trilogy, or even on even ground to the ST, it makes its points more clearly imo... just that short meeting scene in ANH with Tarkin and Vaders force choke helps so much, it didn't matter and I didn't care as a kid, but as I got older I came to appreciate that scene more) . I understood that the SKB attack had a major set back to the Republic, but the Resistance existed before that, led by Leia when they swoop in to intercept Kylo and save Han and Maz. I'm certain there could easily be an explanation to all of it, I just find solely by the movies, it's easy to find those dynamics somewhat confusing.

    As for the SKB attack and on Hosnian Prime, they still had enough fleet to mount a counter attack on SKB and destroy it. So again, it's somewhat unclear how much damage it did to the fleet. The government is in shambles, but the fleet seemed somewhat/mostly unaffected, and it seemed to be more Resistance than Republic in nature, or at least that was my take with Leia leading the charge and leadership.

    My post wasn't so much a critique, as an observation as someone who knows only what happens in the movies. I tend to not read the books for this superficial information, as I find the movie should have enough meat to follow along, and based on the movies, I came up with my take. I did not think things were all rosy with the Republic after Endor. I did for some reason believe Leia was more pro-military then the Resistance, and I'm not sure where I got that impression. Maybe the fact that she's a general and off shoot of the Republic led me to believe she separated herself from the Republic, at least in part, due to a disagreement on policy. Obviously there would still be ships around and her name would have clout and people who agree would follow her, even if not officially sanctioned by the Republic. I didn't realize how the FO fit in with the Republic, as the issue was they were another offshoot in opinion within the Republic.

    I guess I sort of thought the FO somehow secretly hid their military build up, possibly with help from Snoke and his force powers, until they were ready to strike. Leia had a greater resistance to Snoke's influence and sounded the alarm but she managed to be ignored as a war monger by other officials. Leia would be for peace, but she'd also understand that can't be had with a dark force like Snoke manipulating things from the shadows with a delicate and unstable Republic.

    I do have a question, does it mention if Leia was a general in the Republic or a general in her offshoot Resistance? My assumption was the latter, something like preppers and/or militia getting together and readying themselves to a perceived threat that the government isn't taking seriously, nor budgeting for (thus Leia takes it in her hands to mobilize what she can in the absence of leadership on this issue within the Republic). In an entire galaxy, there could be all sorts of factions after all, and a fledgling government could have a hard time controlling them or shutting them down, or their feelings could be mixed and tied up in bureaucracy with no action being done. Again, my assumption was that both the Resistance, and the visible element of the FO (that likely portrayed itself as less extreme) were similar things on the surface, playing PR games while the standing government was trying to wade through their intel and figure out what was what.
     
    #4 Sparafucile, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    you still seem to be confusing the New Republic with the Resistance.
    the New Republic did not make a counterstrike on Starkiller Base. the Resistance did.
    there is no New Republic once the Hosnian system is destroyed. the fleet was largely destroyed with it.
    the Resistance, so far as we know, has existed for about 6 or 7 years before TFA.
    its sole function prior to the attack on Takodana had been to lay low and gather intel on the FO.
    TFA is literally the start of the "war".

    also, the New Republic and the Resistance have exactly zero to do with each other.
    the Resistance, unlike the FO, is actually operating outside of any jurisdiction at the start of TFA.

    your conclusions are not incorrect here, which means you did glean the essence of what's happening from the films.

    the problem, i think, is that we come to the New Republic with our biases intact from the OT: well, they must be the good guys and the FO are "obviously" the bad guys. but that's not how it actually works. just because the Rebellion toppled the Empire doesn't make it "the good guys" now that they are trying to govern the galaxy according to their own interests. the other false assumption people come to the ST with is that the Resistance and the FO are at war prior to the attack on the Hosnian system. they are not. they have had undercover skirmishes (and again, the Resistance are basically antagonizing an authorized military organization; they're the "terrorists", technically). firing Starkiller Base was the salvo that actually kicks off the war and shows the FO's hand.


    Leia is a general in her Resistance only (she is formerly a general of the Rebellion and formerly a senator). and the reason why the New Republic doesn't listen to her is because, again, the FO is sanctioned whereas her Resistance is not. she has basically gone rogue since leaving the Senate. yes, she has friends there, but also many enemies ~ and the public distrusts her. fair enough, that's not in the movies, but it's also not critical except to people who want to understand the political sphere, which, again, you can get in depth in Bloodline.

    the thing is: young audiences aren't interested in the particulars of power vacuums and Senate quibbling. the EU is there to complement the experience. and the movies are never going to satisfy all our questions; they're not meant to explain everything, especially about aspects of the story that aren't important to our viewpoint characters.

    maybe now that Rey and Finn are full invested in the Resistance/Rebellion, we'll get more information. it may also be important to understand Leia and Ben and Darth Vader--how that plays into all of this; and whatever power dynamic we find ourselves in at the opening of ix. but before now it didn't really matter.

    you mention the choking scene in the OT; i'll point out that the FO makes it statements in TFA: Hux's speech is their justification and lays out their rationale in far more detail than anything that was ever stated in the OT. maybe we just don't believe him because, again, he's the "bad guy" and because he's screeching. but you can't dismiss those grievances. they are an explicit part of the fabric of this world.
     
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  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Largely agree with what's being said here. The Resistance is not the New Republic, it's a break away and unsanctioned because Leia saw the threat that the Republic could not/did not until it was too late. Both the FO and the Resistance had sympathizers within the Republic government, but the New Republic is essentially no more. It's military and legislative bodies were largely eradicated (thus the reason the FO reigns supreme in the crawl of TLJ). While there is no formal federal military force now, there are still systems that have some military capacity and material resources (people to whom Leia called for help in TLJ to no avail).

    So in TLJ we have the only 2 formal factions (both much smaller than their predecessors) and one (the Resistance) much smaller than their opposition (the FO). Rumor mill is suggesting that there will be a new enemy rise. I found this idea intriguing but ultimately I wonder if they'll elect to introduce new players to the stage while trying to wrap up a 9 movie anthology. Seems unlikely (to me) even if it would be interesting.
     
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