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Reversing Course: From A Certain Point of View

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Rayjefury, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    It's complicated, but here's my take.

    Based on your example of Luke and Yoda, I would say yes, that is a retcon, and here's why.

    Luke had completed his goal in TLJ. He slowed the FO so the Resistance can save themselves. He managed to talk to Kylo and plant seeds there. He said his farewells to his twin sister ect. He was discovered and there was absolutely no point in his dying if he's to come back the very next movie. They did have leads in TLJ that showed the danger of using that kind of power, but they could have kept him alive quite easily and said, "wow, look how powerful he is, he managed to do this great force power and not be killed by his action." But RJ decided to have him die. Now, if he's come back to life it does pose the question as to what is the purpose of his return? Or more to the point, what was the purpose of his death?

    Now, that's not to say that it can't be manufactured in such a way to question whether it is a retcon. Let's go back to Gandalf and LotR (spoiler alert :p). Gandalf dies in the first movie and comes back in the second, but there's a quest and explanation attached to his return that isn't simple or easy, he literally has to fight a demon to come back. There's also a purpose within the story, Gandalf needed to get stronger from his humbler version at the beginning. That could be a way that JJ goes about this. It could explain why Luke was so flawed (this would have been hard to accomplish had Luke been a super Jedi, for example). It would however take a substantial effort on JJ's part to produce this. The focus would be taken way from the new heroes considerably to make this happen. Casual SW fans don't know about personifications of the Force, so that would almost have to at least in part be re-introduced within the movie. With Gandalf, gods and dimensions and such are a given as they are a common trope in fantasy, but we've never seen that in any SW movie. Though SW has many elements that are fantastical, I don't think the casual viewer sees it in such a way. I think SW is more regarded as a light hearted, light on science sci-fi more than fantasy.

    In the end, I agree, there's no definitive answer. It is possible to have Luke come back in a way that is believable, I'm sure. I just don't think your example would work for many, or at least, not me. Your Yoda/Luke conversation would have me believe it to be a retcon, though for all I know they could have possibly planned this from the beginning.

    As for what people would think, I think it would be mixed, and it greatly depends on how it's done.

    As for Snoke and Maul, I think as viewers, we're more open to dramatic change in animation than we are in live action. I don't know what it is about animation, but it brings out the child in us. Live action tends to anchor us more in reality, thus it is more difficult for us to suspend our disbelief.

    I do have a sliver of hope there is added exposition, but I honestly don't feel like they care much about us, the "haters". I don't even fault them for this, as it may very well be a better strategy financially moving forward to focus on those who like what they've done so far. Even if they get us all back on board after IX, I think TLJ broke a trust in those who disliked it with LFL, and we'll be a harder demographic to please moving forward. So in that sense I can certainly understand why they'd cut their losses and focus on those who love what they are doing.
     
    #21 Sparafucile, Nov 28, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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  2. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I feel the same way, especially about TLJ. I think Rey's lineage must be addressed. They need to explain how it is that she is able to do all of this stuff with the force without ANY training. Sorry but the whole, "she downloaded it from Kylo" thing doesn't wash. That's pretty lame if you ask me. I do love the "everyman" trope, but in this case it isn't working for me. If she failed a bunch of times and got up, dusted herself off and kept going I might be much happier with it. But her failures so far have been non-failures. Kylo isn't the arbiter of truth in the ST. To think he wouldn't simply lie to her in order to get her to join him is crazy. The guy just two days earlier killed his bloody father!

    As for Luke, you are right. Who knows what they really will do with him, but hopefully they've learned their lesson and they don't do something stupid like kill Lando!

    Snoke.... Keep him dead. I'm another one who loved Maul but thought brining him back was stupid. SO if you use him, use him in flashback scenes only.
     
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  3. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    i think a bigger question here is.. did Luke die? for that matter.. did Obi-wan die? did he die from Vader's blow, or did he teleport to Force ghost land before the saber hit? Yoda, Anakin and Qui-gon all certainly died before they joined the force.. but did Luke & Ben?
    (just had a mad thought that Obi-Wan could be real in ep IX lol :D)
    also.. why were the dice hanging around long after Luke disappeared?
    should they be trying to? i don't mean that to sound disrespectful.. but should they try to please any of us? GL didn't make movies to please us, but the stories he told we (mostly) seem to love.

    i'll never believe that any kind of conversation at LF will take place that even remotely discusses that possibility. I honestly believe that everyone involved with Star Wars at LF loves it as much if not more than we do and all they are trying to do is make great movies.. it's not easy pleasing everyone, and it can't be easy walking in George Lucas's shoes (even George struggled to walk in his own shoes when making the PT lol)
     
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  4. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    So... I've recently being re-reading 'The Annotated Screenplays', a book published in 1998 which goes into some detail about earlier drafts of all three OT movies, and there's some fascinating things in there about early versions of the ROTJ screenplay - stuff I had totally forgotten about - especially in light of this disccusion. Luke coming back as something more than a Force ghost does have precedent - as an idea at least

    Here's what grabbed my attention from the book (emphasis is mine):

    "In the revised rough draft... Luke lies unconscious on a small island in the middle of a lake of lava [following a confrontation with the Emperor and Vader]. A hot wind blows across his face and wakes him. He suddenly becomes aware of a presence behind him; he looks back and sees Ben in the flesh. Ben explains he's come back to help Luke destroy the Emperor and his father. Yoda appears; while Ben will be at his side, Yoda also will be able to help from the Netherworld."

    "In the rough draft Luke tells Leia that she is his sister during the celebration. Han and Leia leave Luke alone; suddenly Ben appears in real flesh and blood and is soon followed by an old man, the good Skywalker. Yoda watches them celebrate.

    "In the revised rough draft, after Luke tells Leia and Han that he is Leia's brother, the couple leave him alone with Ben. Yoda suddenly appears as flesh and blood. His stay in the Netherworld has been resolved since Vader has turned to the good side. Yoda also has been able to prevent Vader from becoming one with the Force. Luke's father appears, and they all join the celebration, except for Yoda, who watches them from the side and lets out a great sigh.
    In the second and revised second drafts only the shimmering images of Yoda and Ben appear at the end of the film."
    So there you have it! Early versions of the OT didn't end with Force ghosts, but with with Ben, Yoda and Anakin all returning "in the flesh"! The book also describes moments where even in ghost form, both Yoda and Ben are present in the final confrontation with the Emperor and Vader (which take place on Had Abbadon, "capital of the Galactic Empire").

    Of course, rough drafts are not canon, and before re-reading this book I would have totally ruled out it happening, but there is clearly a precedent for the concept. Not that it neccesarily makes it a good idea of course, and even 'the man himself' ultimately revised that plan. But should Luke (or anyone else!) come back 'in the flesh', it will be based on an idea by George Lucas!

     
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  5. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    To throw even more fuel on the fire... when Qui Gon dies initially he reaches out to Yoda as a voice. He isn't able to show himself, but Yoda can hear him (this is in The Clone Wars animated)



    Obviously later we see Jedi who are able to show themselves in physical forms.
    In TLJ later we see Yoda is able to interact with the regular world still

    It seems like it's all escalating; the degree to which a Force User can pass on physically and yet still remain in the realm of the living and interact. How long before the Force literally allows a Jedi to essentially be alive?

    [Devil's Advocate Font] And also, aside from it being a really bad idea from a story point of view, what in-universe law or rule prevents there from being a Snoke resurrection? For all we know, if we saw how he had become injured initially (especially in his head) we may have argued he shouldn't have been able to survive that. [/Devil's Advocate Font]
     
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  6. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I don't think it's necessarily a question of in universe rules, but a matter of stakes, or the lack thereof. It isn't something that's been used in the movies, which I would assume that's where 90% of the fan base gets their information.

    The addition of having ghosts being able to affect the world will lead to another obvious progression, which fantasy has always struggled with imo. If a ghost can affect the real world, then the real world will have to find a way to affect a ghost. What happens to someone or something that's already dead and gets "killed" again? They can certainly go that way, but I loved the fact that ghost didn't interact, couldn't interact physically because it left this inevitability sidelined, gracefully imo. Now we're going to enter the same messiness of Supernatural, Dungeons and dragons ect... and I fear this will eventually lead to exploration of the afterlife in SW universe.

    Some would say we're already there with Yoda's call lightning in TLJ, I say we're at the brink. That could be ignored, or maybe Yoda didn't summon the lightning, but saw the natural occurance happening. Precognition and all that. If it's added to a fight, then it can no longer be ignored, Pandora's box is opened. I'm not saying it can't make for some interesting stories, but it certainly won't feel like SW anymore either. With an alien galaxy and the ability to create any alien life or world they want, I don't feel this is a window they need to open. It's not like SW is terribly restricted in story options to feel they have to explore the supernatural.

    I'm certainly more open to someone surviving some traumatic injury then I am LFL exploring the afterlife. They just need to be careful because it will lower stakes so they need to make sure it's built in their story how "lucky" or fortunate they were and how unlikely it is that it could be repeated. Beyond advanced medical facilities, I'm sure some aliens have different healing factors and some powerful in the force can even manifest powers that work in the same way.
     
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  7. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    it surely is bro.. it's taken almost a year, but people are finally starting to realize that and put a few things together.
    should they go down that rabbit hold? no idea. will some people absolutely hate it? i reckon so
    will they do it? they just might you know :D

    @Too Bob Bit loved your post mate.
     
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  8. Ridcully

    Ridcully Jedi General

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    Well it's Star Wars, so we know that the bad guys always say the truth, while the good guys always lie (from a certain point of view) and disguise.

    What do you mean with all this stuff. She doesn't do that much with the force and why shouldn't there be people in the GFFA that are just naturally talented to use the force once they discover it. But anyway in my headcanon I hold tight to the idea that we saw Rey unknowingly use the fore when she's convincing this guy to give her the droid.
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Mmm... strictly speaking I don't know if I agree with this. Bearing in mind that I don't actually think they should pursue this route, having someone have the ability to come back to life doesn't eliminate "stakes" it just readjusts where the goal posts are (if you will). It could be constructed so that it's rare, difficult to do, or a one shot deal altogether. I don't think this necessarily has to be a "resurrection free for all".

    This could be an argument for not having ghosts at all. They could just be voices we hear, of maybe even thoughts. If their interaction is strictly communicative why fixate on a physical form to deliver it? Not a counter point to your statement, just a thought I had when reading your post. You really could make an argument that Force Ghost were gratuitous. 3D Holograms masquerading as our own consciousness picking at us.

    I don't think it can be ignored at all. If not in EPIX in some movie it probably warrants being addressed (if only to limit the scope of future movies use of Force Ghost in the physical realm)

    I think at this point it is consensus and canon that the Force created Anakin. And not only created him, but did so intentionally with a purpose; to balance the Force. It doesn't seem like a stretch at all to have (for example) the Force initially accepting Luke's transition to another state, and sending him back because it's suited The Force's agenda to do so. Is it good for these stories? I say no, but more so for logistical reasons and not continuity problems or in-story consistency.
     
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  10. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    @Maximus Thanks!

    Yeah - I haven't read that Annotate screenplays book since before the prequels and forgot about a lot of things that were in it. It's fascinating re-reading it after having had those other films and where we are now with the ST. I might quote from it again in future posts!
     
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  11. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Sensitive

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    To answer both:

    In the comics, they've already done a Sith resurrection via a mask at a powerful focus point of the Force on Mustafar, of which Ach-to was also, so that's the artificial limitation that has always sort-of been there. Objects and places strong in the Force increase the possibility of physical manifestations/resurrections. The Lothal temple where the World Between Worlds appears would likely qualify as well.

    Magic places and objects have always been a thing in the E.U., and the kyber crystal was a macguffin in the original sequel ideas that became Splinter of a Mind's Eye, so it's not like we're totally out on a limb from original GL ideas to the E.U. to other current canon media.
     
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  12. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel General

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    Agreed. And I think JJ is to much of a collaborator to Retcon TLJ. He will use the elements now given to him from Rian, just like Rian used what JJ gave him. You can still take us in an unexpected and exciting direction without having to wipe the slate clean.
     
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  13. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I said it many times, but those quotes surely helps. I see this path in GL’s saga.
    He followed Campbell’s hero journey and it’s not uncommon that the last chapter of it it’s the return of the hero
    in flesh and blood. It doesn’t have to be that, but it can.
    So sure, at the end of the OT George’s choice was another. But then he made the PT and
    he made it with another “obsession”: that everyhas has to rhyme like poetry.
    And if you really think about it, at the end of ep. III we don’t seee Qui Gon but we learn that he has found a way
    to communicate from the other world. It’s a path. Because that is the steep prior to a Force ghost.
    So you have steep one in ep. III and the steep further in VI.
    ( I also think that if TCW ends with Yoda’s arc, it’s because George was still thinking, open to this idea, to something under those lines, but we’ll never know).

    However, because of that, to me it may make perfect sense to have in IX someone coming back in flesh and blood. The next steep of that path.
    That said, even tho I am more a Luke fan than an Anakin fan, I guess story wise, it should be Anakin.
    The chosen one. So that you have not only a path, ep III, VI, IX but aalso and end meeting the beginning. Something that rhymes, perfectly.
    And you may find some ways to do that, without opening even more the Pandora’s box.
    I agree with those who have such concerns.
    IN his case, his special status may be the key to give him such chance.
    Still I think, more importantly, that they should make a moral point.
    That he can, as a kind of reward for having learn the lesson.
    That lesson being, not that he was right star to finish, but that he learnt to get rid not only of
    greed but of the seek of personal purposes (whatever they may be, the seek of cheating death too
    if not mainly) vs the Will of the Force.
    A reward, for having learnt that. That one has to seek the Force Will only. That that is ultimately.. the balance.
    I don’t know if I am explaining myself as I wish I could. But I hope you get it.
    However, that is something I’d love.
    You may even kill all the Skywalkers (something at this point I personally wish they will, regardless what
    we are talking about here) to start it all over again... form a certain point of view, of course.
    Making the lives and deaths of the characters we know and love, meaningful to a far greater goal.

    With that being said... I am afraid it’s too late for that. Think about the broom boy scene, something like that.
    Well, maybe something without the broom, but with the Skywalker’s lightsaber being “reforged” by a kid’s touch.
    To give us the clear idea of what was happening. That to me would have been amazing. The finale this saga really deserves. But I don’t see that happening.
    Especially because now we do have the broom boy scene. An ep. IX finale like that,
    feels.. redundant, wrong, now.

    That said, I have not idea of what JJ is going to do, but I wish him all the best.

    I just hope, he’ll do better than resurrect a character, just because he doesn’t know how to move
    the story further, and to tie meanwhile at least something if not it all.
    I hope they’ll consider the “moral” aspect of such issue. Just like GL did. Because we know he did.

    I wish in short, that if they’ll do something like that, it won’t be only to find a new macguffin for lack of better ideas, of creativity.
     
    #33 lealt, Dec 13, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
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  14. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I’m going to give a different answer then most here but I’m looking at the question from a big story perspective.

    I think Episode 9 can be a good/enjoyable movie that I end up really liking, but it can’t salvage the ST for me.

    My beef with the ST (parts of TFA and TLJ are to blame) is not the movies as I think they executed very well. The acting is much better then the PT, there is less CGI and the characters have better chemistry.

    But I keep coming back to the Big Picture story and the ST feels like a retread of the OT and the plot points in TLJ pretty much nullifies so many things from the 1-6 story.

    I have my problems with the PT in terms of execution, but the story gels nicely with the OT and it forms a nice 1-6 narrative in a macro and micro story sense.

    I just don’t know how Episode 9 can salvage what has been done after TLJ ended? The chosen one plot of Anakin in Episode 1 is irrelevant now, and in many ways his redemption is diminished too. The Rebels vs Empire from the OT is just rebooted to the Resistance vs First Order in the ST. So there’s a lot of ‘been there done that’ with me.

    It’s a strange thing that I have really come to understand since TLJ came out exactly one year ago. I like the ST movies, but the story is so unoriginal that I’ve lost interest and hope in Episode 9. Where as I don’t really like the PT movies, but that story was big, bold and original
    and it still keeps me interested today.

    I hope that makes sense?
     
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  15. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    It makes total sense. I've come to really appreciate the PT over the last year or so. Yeah, the acting was wooden, and the CGI is over the top in some places (perhaps more than some). However, the story of the fall of the Republic, the destruction of the Jedi Order and the temptation/fall of Anakin to the Darksiders is excellent. The world building is just great.

    As for the original question, what constitutes "reversing course?" If, for example, IX says Kylo was lying and Rey is Luke's long-lost daughter, is that a retcon? Is that "fixing it." Or was that the plan all along? I don't know. I don't have access to JJ's original outlines for where the ST was supposed to go (assuming those actually exist). I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.
     
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  16. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    There is no shortage of rumors that they are reversing course from E8. This is, quite obviously, the right thing to do. Whether or not those rumors are true remains to be seen... however, it is also logical to think they are indeed doing this to some degree.

    JJ wrote and directed E7.
    RJ wrote and directed E8.

    If RJ was making E9, I'd expect something more consistent with E8 than E7. But, of course, JJ is making E9. So it really makes a great deal of sense that he will remain more true to his original vision than someone else's. That isn't even meant to be criticism of RJ or E8 (I save that for other threads). I would expect JJ to be more consistent with E7 than E8 even if E8 was universally beloved amongst all the fandom.
     
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  17. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    That's what the PT defenders (like me) have been saying all over the years. It's sad that it took 13 years and TLJ for some fans to come to this conclusion.
     
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  18. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    It is sad. I know I bashed the PT. Heck, especially AOTC and Jar Jar. But, oddly enough, I spent a ton of money on seeing the films in the theater multiple times, I purchased various toys from the films, books, etc. But sometimes we just need distance to calmly judge a film.
     
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  19. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    It's the ultimate irony in that the only way Lucas was able to get many fans (like me) to appreciate the PT was to sell to Disney and let them make more Saga movies that are just rehashes of the OT in many ways. Maybe Lucas was the Phantom Menace when he sold to Disney in 2012? LOL!

    Lucas walking away with that 4 Billion Dollar Check, "Everything is going as planned...."
     
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