Rewatching Revenge of the Sith

Yeah, see what you think the next time you watch the PT. I'm sure that not everyone sees it that way, but to me this has been something that's struck a discordant note between the PT and the OT ever since the first time I saw TPM.

Because virtually nothing that Obi Wan says about in ROTJ about his motivations in training Anakin is really reflected in TPM, or afterward. He wasn't pursuing a passion for teaching when he took Anakin on as his apprentice, nor was he amazed or inspired by how strongly the Force was with Anakin. If anything, TPM showed him to be appalled at how naturally strong Anakin was in the Force. He was practically begging Qui Gon not to train the boy at one point in TPM, and only backed off out of respect to his master.

And ultimately, the decision to take Anakin as his apprentice was more or less forced on him through a sudden "deathbed" request. His agreement to train the boy was also due to his respect for Qui Gon, and not because of any apparent belief in Anakin on his part. Dad dies, big brother gets to raise little brother. That's circumstances dictating things, rather than a conscious and heartfelt choice.

Once that happened in TPM, there really wasn't any way to reconcile that with what Obi Wan told Luke in ROTJ no matter what happened throughout the rest of the PT. True, some fans have simply shrugged and written Obi Wan off as a pathological liar, but that's really not what the character was about. The problem wasn't that Obi Wan was a liar, but that George Lucas just didn't stick particularly closely to the backstory that he himself had established by the end of the OT.

This is exactly why I have always wished that Lucas had scripted all three PT films before he ever shot a second of footage. Many of the story problems that bother so many SW fans about the PT came about due to Lucas making things up as he went along. That's fine if you're writing sequels, where the story is open ended. But if you do a prequel that way you're just asking for trouble. Because in the end it's all got to line up with an established storyline, and that is a whole different kind of storytelling craft than sequel writing is.

But I digress, as usual.

 

Has there every been any quotes from Lucas on why he even invented the QuiGon character? It's a shame because I am a huge Liam Neeson fan, and I actually like the QuiGon character, but as you say, it contradicts everything Obiwan said in ROTJ.

 

I'm trying to remember specific quotes, but from what I recall he was concerned about the fact that in his original TPM draft, Obi Wan was on his own for the first 20 minutes of the movie, which didn't lend itself to much in the way of dialogue. He also got wrapped up in the idea of showing the master/apprentice relationship and decided that Obi Wan therefore needed to be a padawan and not a Jedi knight.

All of which is completely legitimate and understandable/. Unfortunately, it also didn't really dovetail with the established backstory.

 

My point exactly. And Obiwan comes across not as a benevolent, watchful mentor, but as a peevish, jealous rival sibling who not only opposed Anakin at every stage of the game - possibly contributing to his downfall by provoking Anakin's resentment toward the Jedi - but also who just sat there and watched Luke grow up, knowing whose son he was, knowing he was likely strong with the Force and could help him reestablish the Jedi, but choosing not to train him until basically forced to, when Luke was really too old to begin.

They basically made Qui Gonn the figure Obiwan was supposed to be.

 

Well, don't get me started on the whole "Jedi must begin training as toddlers" thing. I have always found the whole cradle-robbing scenario to be not only unnecessary, but also a big part of why the Jedi were so difficult for me to root for in the PT.

It never made much sense to me to have the Jedi Order insist on training only young children. To me, it always seemed like it would have been a good indication of Force potential for a person to continue to exhibit Force sensitivity after puberty, when most people lose a lot of the perceptions they naturally had as children. This would also allow the decision to become a Jedi to rest with the person themselves, rather than their parents and the Jedi Council making that decision for them when they're small children.

Yes, Yoda says something in ESB about Luke being too old to complete the training, but in the context of that scene (especially given Frank Oz's delivery) it comes across far more as a cranky, crotchety old man halfheartedly pulling excuses out of his bum than it does as a recitation of some old Jedi Council rule.

It always just struck me that the OT implied that people trained as Jedi when they were old enough to make that very serious decision and commitment for themselves.

 

Putting Qui Gon in Dooku's place would have made a MUCH better storyline. I can't believe I never considered that before, but yes... that makes a whole lot of sense.

Ditch the whole master/apprentice thing and make Qui Gon and Obi Wan partners, like a couple of cops. Obi Wan goes off into Mos Espa instead of Qui Gon, and he discovers Anakin and gets it into his head that he needs to train the kid as a Jedi, as established in ROTJ. Qui Gon survives the end of the movie, and it's established throughout Episode I that he is fed up with the Jedi Council's ivory tower bureaucracy trip. We then learn in the opening crawl of Episode II that Qui Gon has left the Jedi Order (or perhaps he leaves at the end of Episode I) and he then fills the Dooku role. Perhaps nobody even knows that it's Qui Gon leading the separatists until later in Episode II.

 

And Liam Neeson would have played the s&*% out of Bad Qui Gon. However, it does steal the thunder of Vader's story.

 

I don't think so he would have provided a better master than Obi Won.

 

(Paraphrasing from memory)

RotJ: When I first met your father I was amazed by how strongly the force flowed through him.

TPM: His midichlorian count is off the charts! I've never seen a count so high!

RotJ: I took it upon myself to train him.

TPM: I will train Anakin - with or without the Council's approval.

ANH: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. And he was a good friend.

See: Parts of AotC, all of TCW the first half of RotS.

I don't see any major discrepancies. Obi Wan never says anywhere that he had a passion for teaching, only that he was amazed at Anakin's natural abilities and took it upon himself to teach Anakin.

 

Let me help you will the lines used in each movie

ROTJ: When I first met your father he was already a great pilot ( the I was amazed part follow)
TPM: His midichlorian count is off the charts, over 20,000 even Master Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian reading that high, no jedi has.
The third one was correct.
TPM: Master Yoda I gave Qui Gonn my word I will train Anakin.
ANH also correct.

Im not trying to be a showoff.

 

I anticipate that would have been a 'Dark Knight' moment - blame them and chase them like Batman at the end of 'The Dark Knight'. The Republic would have likely remained the Republic and a new chancellor established while the Jedi fade into oblivion. Not the worst outcome.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2016, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2016 ---

Also, an aristocratic Dooku with an agenda - to ensure the Republic broke - would have presented the galaxy with a nice little martyr for a Separatist movement, not to mention a former Jedi, which would have put the Jedi Order on their heels politically and it would have made sense that people would begin to doubt the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic.

Sounds good. Alas...

 

@FN-3263827 might like the Dark Knight reference

 

i always do ~ hahaha

 

I definitely think Dooku should have been in TPM, as a Jedi who is leaving the order. This would enrich the actions of Qui-Gon's character regarding training Anakin; his defiance. It would also set up Dooku as the Jedi's #1 suspect for the Sith Master who trained Maul, while we sit there knowing they are following the wrong lead. It creates a sort of slight of hand trick for Darth Sidious. When Dooku is killed in ROTS, they think they got the mastermind behind all this chaos, only to discover too late that it was the Chancellor and he's already replaced Dooku with Anakin. A shell game of apprentices and masters, exactly as the Sith would do.

I also think the story called for Palpatine to have had Anakin be the one to erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives when he was much younger. There should have been a few more moments of seemingly innocent "I need a favor" kind of requests from Palpatine to Anakin, that would make his turn more of a seduction than a tires-a-squealin', no seatbelts, unreasonable U-turn that we got.

 

Anakin's Doom

I really like Episode III, since it gives us a complete portrait of Anakin's conversion into Darth Vader and the developed eeriness of the Sith.

I also like the fight between Kenobi and Anakin and how Vader is introduced with Sidious.

With a little wine and general Star Wars fanfare, Episode III hits the right notes on storytelling at least.

 

http://io9.gizmodo.com/three-star-wars-fans-made-a-shot-for-shot-remake-of-rev-1796754493

 

I agree with you "point of view" Revenge is my fave of the Prequels. I have a few issues with it but over all I really like it.

 

I think Yoda realized it was a stalemate between him and Sideous and the longer he stuck around the more probable Clonetroopers would come to take him down. He had a limited amount of time and didn't get it done - so he lived to fight another day.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 19, 2017 ---

Someone on a podcast brought up the theory that Padme died because the Force willed it in an effort to protect the children. If she was alive, Anakin would have never stopped looking for her and thus would have found the kids - making them doomed to Sideous.