Rey, and Kylo's Vision

Weren't their visions manipulated by Snoke so that Rey would be stupid enough to rush to Ren's style to save him from the former? That is the impression I got.

 

I think you may be both right. And that there could be other takes on this too.
I believe in fact it has been left vague by purpose.
So that they can use one way or another in the next one.
Or don't use it at all.

 

Hmm . Maybe not. My vision of the vision is that Kylo had no intention of initially betraying Snoke as he saw Rey switch sides to be on the dark with him. Simply that, not them defeating Snoke together. Rey saw the same but for the light, they'd defeat Snoke together. In the elevator, she says "it doesn't need to be like this" and calls him "Ben", as if trying to appeal emotionally to him. You could say each vision was tailored to their personality; Rey's was idealistic and Naive (them winning the day and defeating the big bad together then going light) while Kylo's was dark and selfish (her turning out of fear of death, and turning her back on her friends.)

The camera cuts to him after Snoke revealed he created the force bond between them, and you can see him tense and glare at him in anger. That's when the resolve inside him becomes clear to kill his true enemy, Snoke not Rey. And he stops being conflicted.

It was why he calmly stood by and let Rey be tortured, but not killed. He thought seeing the resistance pods being destroyed and knowing all her friends would die and so would she, would break her enough to turn. Fear of death, ergo fear, a very dark reason to turn.

With her, it's why she readily thinks he's switched sides after they defeat Snoke. Their battle followed her vision.

 

I think they were and this is why I want Snoke to be alive.

Spoiler: Regarding Snoke

If he connected them through the force like he says, his telepathic abilities should allow him to read them and know what's going on.
"It was I who bridged your minds. I stoked Ren's conflicted soul, I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you and you were not wise enough to resist the bait. And now, you will give me Skywalker"

He knew his apprentice would turn on him. From the dialogues, the sarcasm, the "confidence", the laughter. Why would he bridge them with thoughts he CAN'T control ?

You stayed hidden for this long because of "vulnerability" but decide to bring them together in your throne room ? After they had time to speak on their way there ? And you suddenly trust him when earlier you made fun of him being weakened by the murdering of Han ?

What we know about those visions :

They don't choose when
they can talk freely (choose their words, no manipulation whatsoever)
2nd skype call, Kylo's hand is wet (that sounds disgusting) seriously though, how ??!!
Luke doesn't see Kylo the 1st time but Kylo feels Luke
3rd time, Luke can clearly see Kylo, Kylo and Rey touch hands
(are those visions getting "stronger" ?)

So all of this ... To find Luke ???
It seems like a complicated process.

This is what looks weird, there's no way Snoke thought this reveal would be OK with Kylo and that the latter wouldn't try something to strike him. I understand that this whole scene is amazing when thinking about Rey and Kylo's development but it still lowers a character who we know is incredible for many reasons which I'm tired of writing down at this point but to make things short, he is the big "everything" behind this trilogy who is aware of EVERYTHING that brought down the empire.

I'm not Snokespreading or being off topic because Snoke is the one responsible for those visions, if ReyLo is a thing then Snoke is ... the priest marrying them, fact.

 

Kylo's offer to Rey to rule was a proposal then lol. It has shades of Anakin and Padme in ROTS.

I hope Snoke gets explained in IX. Otherwise it's just bad writing in TLJ, and one of my weak spots with it tbh.

 

Look closely at his hand, you can see a ring

And yes I agree if it wasn't for Snoke, this movie would've been a homerun (kinda)

 

Don't forget Space Leia! And I still hate Canto Bight. Heavy handed clumsy execution with it's themes...grr.

He's going to propose with Snoke's black diamond ring! It's from visual guide.

 

True but to me space Leia is just a brief wtf moment, and I don't hate canto bight at all, it just happens to be in a movie where other characters are so interesting we want more screentime for them, in fact canto bight seems useless BECAUSE we don't see enough but we don't want to see more BECAUSE we want the force stuff.
I'd like to see more of this planet in other media or spin-off movie, that comfy yacht ...

 

If Space Leia was shot better, I'd have loved it. I did like the bit of seeing her frozen fingers twitch, but then superman pose ruins it.

Canto Bight felt like generic space Vegas to me. Oh look they have space horses in a space race, and a space casino that exactly like an ordinary one except it's in SPACE. The only bit I liked was BB-8 with the coins, other than that it was Jupiter ascending levels of design.

If it was more interesting designed than just weird space creatures and space decor, and than just a generic space resort town of rich shady people, I'd have liked it.

 

I see, my take on it is that one of the main reasons as to why we don't like this place is because we don't see enough, that maybe we would've seen more Star Warsish stuff here if it was a more important place, but because it wasn't they didn't put as much efforts. DJ started to sound interesting with his concept of no side, speaking some truth to Finn and Rose but it only led to a betrayal...

 

DJ was kinda interesting, but weird voice annoyed me. I can see them bringing him back and trying to make something out of him though. Could work.

 

Yep. Right down to "you're going down a path I can't follow!"​

You could be right. I think the vision they both had was from the Force (not Snoke)...but it was their interpretation of it was what was off. Probably partially manipulated by Snoke. It was apparently of them working together--but neither could imagine a scenario that didn't involve the other coming over to their side. Snoke was so sure he was in charge of all of that...but it looks as though he didn't actually have control of the Force bond/Force Skype at all, since it happened again after he was dead. And of course in his hubris (another great theme of TLJ), Snoke was utterly sure of Ben too. He was right that his apprentice was going to cut down his true enemy, but wrong in his interpretation of it--just like Ben and Rey were in their interpretation of the vision.

The interesting thing is that can hear the Force theme play just before after Snoke dies and Ben and Rey gaze at each other before beginning to work together to take out the guards. So I started wondering if that vision of them working together has more than one fulfillment. That's how visions usually work. Sure, working together there in the throne room was fulfilled, but maybe also to bring the fabled "balance" to the Force in the future so we can end this destructive conflict. (*cough*)

 

Snoke's sin was pride, and he died for it. Ben's sin is wrath, something he was recovering from with Rey. Then Snoke manipulation thing happens and she rejects him, making his wrath flare up again.

Maybe it was Forceshadowing (gettit)? Like visions weren't necessarily "real" real, but true to Ben and Rey as it still influences them. I'd love balance in IX. Rey and Kylo still make me think of Yin and Yang (she is light with a hint of dark a la her fighting style, and he is currently dark but with a hint of light a la his inner struggle.)

 

I think the visions and the force bond may still be two different things.

The force bond may be what makes them cabaple of "speak"/"feel"/"see" each other.

But the visions are visions each one of them has separatly.
As it has always been in SW. Visions of the future...

In fact, it's not that we see Rey's vision of Kylo's future in one of the "force-skype-calls" (sorry, if I
use this definition, but it's just to make clear what I'm talking about)...

It could be interesting, because it may add the chance that Snoke was messing with the visions too...
Or perhaps only with those.

Because, otherwise, there's another plot hole/discrepancy: because it looked like it was the interrogation of 7 that caused the force bond.
Or not? I don't remember/understand sorry...

 

That makes sense too

Snoke was all "Muahaha I has Kylo loyalty and I will make him kill the person I've been making him get close too! Someone he can relate too and has lots of things in common with! Mwah!" Ergo he had hubris.

Kylo was "lol no" and cut him in half.