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SPECULATION REY: "I'm no one." Odysseus said the same thing to the Cyclops Polyphemus in the ODYSSEY

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by WeWhoSurvived, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    What if her dialogue is cut short: "I am no one, I am many." :p

    Isn't this suggestive of the rumor that Phasma's armor allows her to cloak?
     
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  2. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    It's a potential connection. If it comes true, I expect full honors for suggesting it. Ahem. And you, too. :) It's definitely a potential connection, especially if her helmet has special powers related to camouflage or invisibility. If she can't cloak in invisibility and is just wearing a cloak, I'm totally fine with that. It's Gwendoline!
     
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  3. DarthDingus

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    So maybe simpler still in that it's just the tunnel vision that comes with seemingly absolute might when coupled with the righteousness of the zealot. The FO, et al, are just so arrogant, that they couldn't imagine being brought down by a scavenger, or a farm boy, or a relatively recently matriculated padawan, no matter how many midi-doohickies he had.
     
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  4. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    Recently matriculated. lol. Doohickies. hahahahahahaha
     
  5. Darth Sadinus

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    Hi everyone.

    Let me add just a bit of trivia concerning literature and that piece of dialogue you are discussing on this topic.

    The question "Who are you?" and the reply "I'm no one" is also present at one of the most famous plays in Portuguese literature (yes, I'm Portuguese): a dramatic play by the name "Frei Luís de Sousa", by Almeida Garrett, from 1843.

    The play is a tragedy about guilty conscience issues in a time of high morality values. In short, there is a man, called D. João de Portugal, that is considered "missed in action" in the Battle of Alcácer Quibir, in the year 1578, a battle where the Portuguese king was also missed/killed and was crucial for Portugal to loose its independence in favour Spain in 1580.

    His wife Madalena waits seven years for him to return, and after so long without any kind of information if he is alive or not, she marries Manuel, a man she always loved, both fearing that if someday D. João could return their marriage would be illegitimate, as also would be their new born daughter. Meanwhile, Manuel, a patriot, burns his own house, so the Spanish governors would not took it. In the fire a ancient paintinig of D. João is also burned, like a premonition of something to come. So they move to another house and try to live their lives, hopping that D. João would never return.

    Until one day, twenty years after D. João is missing, a ragged pilgrim who claims to come from Holy Land knocks at the door and asks to see Madalena. Only Telmo Pais, an old schoolmaster and faithful friend of D. João, now just a servant at the house, seems to recognize the pilgrim and, at the climax of the play, ask:

    Telmo - "That voice... that voice! Pilgrim, who are you?"

    Pilgrim - (removing his hat and moving away the hair from his eyes) - I'm no one, Telmo; no one, if even you cannot recognize me anymore!"

    Summing up, guilt takes over everyone: D. João orders Telmo to tell the house owners that the pilgrim was an imposter and goes away, the daughter, who symbolizes beauty and purity although she was born in a promiscuous relationship, knows the truth and dies of shame, and both Manuel and Madalena change their names and go in to closure to join the religious life.

    So, what all this have to do with the latest trailer and TFA movie? Maybe nothing at all.
    Like I said: it's just a trivia involving literature I decided to share, because I seriously doubt that TFA writers have been reading Almeida Garrett.

    On the other hand, the Star Wars universe is so vast that, if we want to, we can find all sort of relations to other pieces of literature or even real historic events. Even if we would force it. As an example, and regarding this play, we can relate:
    The burned painting - burned Vader's helmet;
    A warrior that no one knows about until he makes a surprising return - Luke in TFA;
    Opposing the Spanish rule - the resistance/rebellion;
    Seek redemption in religion after guilt - Obi Wan and Yoda in isolation listening to the Force after failing.
    See? It´s easy to make this sort of conections.

    My final words: just enjoy the movies and don't over think them too much. The wheel is already invented. ;)
     
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  6. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    Pardon me? That would be an OBSCURE reference. My reference is not obscure at all because, first of all...well...IT'S THE ODYSSEY. And yes, I was shouting. Secondly, they're both epics, Star Wars the modern day epic and Homer's Odyssey the classical epic. Plus, I describe how the design imagery of the First Order and Knights of Ren are metaphorical Cyclopes, which suggests a connection with SW:TFA that is likely one that was DELIBERATELY made. In other words, the chances for this happening is greater than chance alone. You, however, are suggesting it's obscure and even set up an example to liken it to but, unfortunately for you, isn't similar at all. I completely disagree. I reject your argument that my observation of all these correlations are meaningless and I'm overthinking it. Oh, and don't tell me to overthink. That gets me upset because it's condescending. I'll overthink all I want. However, in this case, I thought this through -- and thoroughly -- it's not overbaked. I constructed a thorough argument that's even supported by assertions made by mythology post linking TFA with Ovid's Metamorphoses last month. Again, it's THE ODYSSEY...*echoes*
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 23, 2015, Original Post Date: Oct 23, 2015 ---
    Completely agree with you. It totally makes sense she would say "I'm no one" during the interrogation sequence...like she would be agreeing with Kylo that "Hell yeah dude, I'm just a scavenger. I'm no one. A nobody. Why make a big stink over me? This droid kept following me and I tried to sell it, then you guys tried to kill me so I ran. Duh!"
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 23, 2015 ---
    Exactly ... Darthlaw was just saying that, too. See my response to him. Plus, Maz might actually be talking to Finn. "Who are you?" He's also searching for his identity!
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 23, 2015 ---
    Assy McGee, I love you. XOXO. lol. Yes, I need to read the entire Odyssey now. I haven't. I wonder what other possible connection there might be...
    If nothing else, all of this ignites my imagination. Honestly, I haven't been this into thinking about a film since Ridley Scott's Prometheus. I was thinking about that for a year after it was released, regardless of the disappointments of the film. And...that was written by Damon Lindelof, a guy who was made famous almost overnight by JJ Abrams. I know people criticize Lindelof, but he's made some compelling stuff and made film studios $$$. I admire filmmakers who allow me to take paths in the ghettos of my mind ... this is related to that is related to this and that ... instead of just exposition.
     
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  7. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    This is more than likely going to add up. Great post OP.
     
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  8. Pastor Barndog

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    The thing that jumped out at me with this theory is that the whole Odyssey is Odysseus' journey home. Rey like Odysseus is trying to return to family (assuming she is who she expected to be). She is going home to her family and toward her destiny. The will Odysseus make it home question becomes will Rey make it to her goal.

    That said as much as I think they will borrow from ancient classics and myth they will also borrow from themselves. The parallel and opposition of Rey and Ren its almost like they are the Anti-Luke and Anti-Anakin at the same time.
     
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  9. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    Very good point and it's something I failed to emphasize in this post, that the filmmaker's ultimate goal is to compose an original picture. Originality is highly sought after, but it must be noted that originality is usually inspired by something. I did emphasize this point in my TFA link to mythology post last month. See:

    SW:TFA INSPIRED BY MYTHS IN OVID'S METAMORPHOSES—KYLO REN AS THE RAVEN, POE DAMERON AS THE PEACOCK
     
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  10. Darth Sadinus

    Darth Sadinus Rebel Trooper

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    Well, first of all I'm sorry if my reply caused that kind of negative reaction from you. As you are open minded to develop your theory, you should be open minded to accept criticism.

    It wasn't my intention to throw down your theory, which I think is cool... as trivia. And nothing more than that.

    What I meant to say is that, if you are looking for something, it's more easy to find it if you already know what you're looking for.

    As you see a relation between the KoR and the Cyclops from the Odyssey, others are seeing a direct reference to the “Seven Samurai”, from Akira Kurosawa or the western version of “The Magnificent Seven”. And Lucas has referred several times the influence of samurai and western movies on Star Wars. That is not an obscure reference for sure.

    Who is right? You? They? Probably no one. You can find several references and connections everywhere, from literature, to History, mythology, or even religion. And you can elaborate that all you want. But don't put too much effort on it. Or you might be disappointed this December 17. I'm sure not even you believe the writers from TFA build a major part of the plot based upon a well-known epic as The Odyssey. That would be some lazy job from them. As a Star Wars fan I want to be surprised by something original, not to watch a story I already know from school but now with spaceships added.

    And try to chill out for a minute. This thread topic has "speculation" on it, with capital letters. Not "dogmatic-and-unquestionable-truth-because-I-said-so". So it´s open for debate. Or it should be.
     
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  11. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    It should be open for debate. Sure. But your argument that I'm wrong sucks. Oh, the KOR and Seven Samurai ... duh, but Lucas' Star Wars was also directly inspired by Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces" and associated Greek mythology. There are probably other sources of inspiration, too. Only way to know for sure is to have the filmmakers reveal who inspired the story. As I've said earlier in the comments, their aim is originality. But they are most certainly inspired by a host of sources. Prominent sources, like the classical epics, not an obscure Portuguese drama.
     
    #51 WeWhoSurvived, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
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  12. Protocol Droid

    Protocol Droid Rebel General

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    First of all I want to say that the Odyssey is basically the cornerstone of Western lit (by Western I mean pan-European, not old west Americana). So it's not a stretch to say that a new Western-derived hero-journey might make deliberate reference to it -- in fact, you could probably make an argument that EVERY hero-journey in the western tradition is making reference to Homer whether it realizes it or not.

    I also want to say that the insight of the FO as a cycloptic villain (the redesigned stormtrooper helmets, Kylo's mask, the Starkiller base eye, etc) is an INSPIRED insight.

    I also think it is completely legit to read the dialogue exchange featured in the trailer through a Homeric lense (even if alternate translations make the connection less explicit), and that this kind of analysis can lead to greater insight into character and story.

    Here's the thing though: even with the deliberate cycloptic design choices, my droid heart has a hard time believing that mainstream Hollywood cinema is informed by anything more than a cursory awareness of not just Homer but all Western lit. This includes GL, whose understanding of poetry amounts to "it rhymes" and whose model for mythological structure is not the primary texts but Campbell, whose work amounts to a cursory overview of thematic elements from the canon.

    @WeWhoSurvived, Like I said I think this kind of reading is totally legit, and it often leads to critical insights seemingly buried in the texts, but my inclination (in this context) is to not assume authorial intention: texts are often smarter than those who author them.

    I may be wrong...

    Edit: I don't mean to denigrate Campbell's mythological synthesis, the point is more about Hollywood's generalized relationship to mythological concepts as opposed to a deeper awareness of specific texts
     
    #52 Protocol Droid, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
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  13. Darth Sadinus

    Darth Sadinus Rebel Trooper

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    Speaking about "condescending"...
    Listen, you got my first reply all wrong.
    When exactly have I stated that the play I mentioned influenced any SW story? Or when exactly have I stated that your Odyssey theory was wrong?
    I didn't started a battle of theories. I just shared an example of how in a simple five minute reflexion, anyone can find points of contact between a literary work and the vague knowledge we get from a small dialogue in a movie trailer. Imagine if I spent as much time as you developing this example as a theory. Or if I spent as much time looking for flaws on your theory for every relation you mentioned.
    Keep your theory. It's good, really. But don't make a huge thing of it with just the small amount of information you have from the trailer.
     
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  14. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    You're not wrong at all! I feel strongly that you're right about all that. I don't think you're denigrating anything. It's an insightful post because you wrote that all with critical insight and care. So thank you for your support by saying this reading is "legit" and that my cyclops correlation is "INSPIRED." Haha! I really love the use of all caps for emphasis. I deeply appreciate all that, dude. Thank you.

    I'm amazed that no one else has pointed out the Cyclops connection sooner, actually, and how pervasive and deliberate the imagery might be present in the antagonists. Sure, everyone noticed the leaked Stormtrooper designs way back in 2014, but no one was like "What does that design change mean other than just to refresh the look for a reboot?"

    "Inspired" is what I'm aspiring for anyway ... actually, it's what I feel the filmmakers inspired in me. I feel they also aspire that for me. It's one thing for any franchise to appeal to the public and aim for ticket sales by appealing to basal reactive emotions prompted by superficial action, cultural biases and thinly veiled sexuality, but it's another thing entirely for a film to sell itself by presenting real, substantive character dialogue that aptly communicates the heart of the film and activating cerebral synthesis and literal provocation of cognitive thought ... and streams of thought that return frequently to analyze the content because that content speaks to us.

    How have they reached us? Well, specifically, the three trailers and the Comic Con behind the scenes footage we've been privileged to glimpse have been hugely instrumental in selling the film and inviting fan involvement in the form of speculation and leaks. They've prompted what I'd like to think is unprecedented fan community engagement and interaction discussing the film on social media and forums such as this, such as this post and our comments to each other. Together, the marketing has been brilliant. Just those four (4) videos alone, the convention appearances and merchandizing thus far (Force Friday included) have culminated in record-breaking SW:TFA ticket pre-sales, which not only broke the Internet (haha, meaning the sites selling tickets) in the first day, blowing away by 8-fold the record of first day ticket pre-sales previously held by the last Hunger Games film, as Collider discussed here on Oct. 20th, citing Variety and Fandango. And Disney (and whatever trailer-making company they chose to produce it along with JJ's sign off) produced that third and final Trailer #3 in a masterfully simple way to lead us into the characters and the heart of the film itself.

    The characters are introduced with a lead-in presumably by Maz Kanata, who asks "Who are you?" It'll be interesting to see who she was in fact talking to at that moment. A few have already discussed (and convinced me) that the dialogue may be cherry-picked from elsewhere in the film and may not be a linear representation of the actual dialogue, which may be cobbled together from different scenes and arranged just for the trailer.

    But look at the simplicity of how SIMPLE the trailer is constructed, focusing first on the 3 main characters:

    Rey: I'm no one.
    Finn: I was raised to do one thing [pause], but I've got nothin' to fight for.
    Kylo Ren: Nothing will stand in our way. I will finish [pause] what you started.​

    And then the meat of the trailer:

    Rey: There are stories about what happened.
    Han: It's true. All of it. The dark side. The Jedi. They're real.
    Maz: The Force—it's calling to you. [whispers] Just let it in.
    That's literally all the dialogue in the 2 minute 18 second trailer.

    JW and RL on MSW on Podcast #100 made a great observation, commenting that the narrators in ALL THREE TRAILERS, 1) Snoke, 2) Luke and 3) Maz, all of them have NOT been formally introduced or visually revealed to us (it's presumed that it's a flashback of Luke putting his hand on R2-D2 in Trailer #2 and the same scene reused for Trailer #3). And it's also been speculated that Snoke may actually be in Trailer #3, that he may be one of the Seven Knights of Ren shown (perhaps it's Snoke holding the longsword trisaber, not Kylo...or it could be someone else who is Kylo's predecessor ... especially if this is the scene where the KOR just massacred the Jedi academy and those are dead padawans. If those are just dead villagers then perhaps that scene takes place only years prior to events of the film and that could be Kylo.

    Regarding Being Rebuked by Star Wars Fans...
    Honestly, I hope I'm ultimately vindicated for pointing out these connections down the road because honestly, fielding cutting criticism is rough! I've received negative messages, including from moderators, who are understandably skeptical and largely unmoved, even recalcitrant in accepting new theories, including my own. I strongly suspect a particular Making Star Wars podcast discussion briefly alluded to one of my previous posts and mocked it somewhat, then quickly dismissed it to get to the next discussion agenda item. I like those guys regardless. I understand they have a podcast to run, which is essentially a platform for them as fans to express their essentially personal views and they can agree with and disagree with whatever they want. I feel like they, as well as other bloggers/vloggers and podcasters can be harsh and don't give other fans like me enough credit. But my point is Star Wars fans, including me I admit, are territorial and can be punitive, repudiating competing ideas in order to defend our own especially views we deem correct. Of course, it's because we cling to stuff that makes sense to us, that we value. Some views and speculation come from left field and some are, totally wrong. New ideas are alien.

    Proposing this stuff is a risk at being publicly mocked ... I feel perhaps like JJ and KK did at being booed at Comic Con just after the behind the scenes footage was shown. Check it out here if you haven't seen it already ... it's a rare and super crazy rebuke directly from the fans. Although fans appreciated that footage, many booed at that moment because they had expected more. They realized they didn't get everything they wanted and weren't going to get more. Just look at JJ's and KK's reaction! It's telling, actually. Kasdan leans to JJ, complimenting him on the video (presumably Bad Robot and JJ himself created it and not Disney?), saying "Very nice," to which JJ beams a curt smile, like a boy scout being affirmed by his scoutmaster for doing a good turn daily. But JJ was only able to bask in Kasdan's admiration for literally one second before the boos ominously intrude his reverie. JJ physically responds to this, showing discomfort and promptly wiping that smile off his face (respectfully, which was a very smart move behaviorally speaking on his part...he's actually showing fans that he's not the boss, they are, and that he answers to them), and then JJ followed that up with expressing genuine concern on his face, basically accepting the boos. JJ's discomfort is particularly obvious. He readjusts his posture and looks at moderator Chris Hardwick as if he's crying for help to move things a long so this uncomfortable moment doesn't persist ... and Chris Hardwick definitely did. Chris moved to attempt to recover the moment, choosing to make a plea to the fans to NOT boo, saying: "I mean, that's never before seen footage of behind the scenes of The Force Awakens!" with hands raised palms up. But then he wisely gives up and quickly shifts the attention to introducing Peter Mayhew in the crowd to squelch the rebellion. An awkward moment for sure. I actually doubt anyone could've made a better transition, but it was definitely super awkward.

    Fans were expecting another trailer, and rightly so. It had been nearly 3 months since Trailer #2 was released. There was much disappointment that a trailer wasn't coming until Fall. I'm really glad that JJ had another card up his sleeve that day ... to announce at the end of that panel that everyone was invited to a free concert of Star Wars music in downtown San Diego. He knew he couldn't produce another trailer, but he could give fans that. But those boos came at that moment and JJ was still visibly affected. KK was smiling in petrification. Then her chin quivered, swallowing. Something I think they'll never forget. These facial and behavioral microexpressions demonstrate how important the fans experience is to the very top people of a franchise, and how connected they are to us. They really are. Their success is predicated upon our acceptance of their work. Their legacy is predicated on the quality of the stories they produce.

    I definitely think JJ and KK immediately understood fan's sentiment because they are true fans themselves, they know the value of their brand of entertainment and seek to disseminate that value. But at that moment they unfortunately became the subject of intense scrutiny and fan mutiny. I also think it's fortunate it happened, too. I think it's ultimately a good thing the fans expressed themselves, of course. After all, the human soul yearns for expression. It's why we have film as an art form in the first place, and I'm sure it's why JJ and KK do what they do and has made it their life's work that supports their families. It isn't a trite thing either, doing what they do. Their work exemplifies the best of us, I think, and I want them to know that most of us realize this as fans and consumers. It's brilliantly human as a motivation to share their art and perpetuate captive storytelling that elevates everyone. It's brilliant because it's so giving and custom-tailored for fans ... custom-tailored at great effort and cost. What a noble occupation and profession film making is that seeks to reach people and appeal to them and entertain and illuminate the human condition in such a complex medium where so many things can go wrong. That moment of fan repudiation must've stung quite a bit, deeply wounding them with a divine arrow. It's ironic, since JJ and KK are gushing with gratitude toward the fans at every one of these conventions and try to be very inclusionary and respectful of them (sometimes I roll my eyes at that because they're doing it so much).

    JJ Abrams has another card up his sleeve: the film itself. When it's finally released Dec. 18th (I have tickets for it the evening of Dec. 17th) I will, of course, be looking for elements of mythology in it not just as a self-validating exercise in self-aggrandizement, but because I see these things and I want to share what I see with others. I really believe these are deliberately intentional elements of the story being hinted to us by the filmmakers. In fact, they are story choices they made perhaps based on multiple sources of inspiration, which may include the classical epic poems and associated mythology, and which might govern the direction of the entire franchise and perpetuating what is probably the best contemporary story we have: Star Wars.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 23, 2015, Original Post Date: Oct 23, 2015 ---
    Thank you for recognizing I've spent time on it. I have. I love this stuff. It is a small amount of information I have from the trailer. It's all we have. It's small, but it's significant information. Potentially revelatory. Wait, it's not all we have. We have my analytic abilities taking that small but significant information and making sense of stuff no one else has, and which I've shared and which you've consumed and reacted to. You're welcome. :) And thanks for conceding it's a good theory. You should've stuck with just saying that so we didn't have to argue like this.
     
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  15. Voxx

    Voxx Jedi Hero of Legend

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    She actually said "I'm Noh-Wun." That's her real name.
     
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    R5D42 Rebelscum

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    I was scrolling through all of the posts looking for someone to pick up on this - i believe the same thing. I think that the Maz Kanata voiceover in the trailer is there for the trailer itself...I believe Rey's "I'm no one." line is in direct response to Ren's "Is it true you are just a scavenger?" line as well.
     
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  17. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    It would be SO awesome if that was really her character's name: Noh-Wan-Kenobi
     
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  18. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    Anything I missed?
     
  19. Moral Hazard

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    Great posts all around!

    I'm a little out of my league here (zero classics knowledge), but these cyclops references reminded me of a half-forgotten quote along the lines of "keeping one eye on the future and one on the past leaves you blind to the present" or something similar.

    Perhaps a character like Kylo or any other who has one eye firmly on the past is a cyclops already - even without a vision obscuring mask?

    Edit: If Rey is of Skywalker lineage, seeing herself as "no one" (reading into words out of context of course) could be good protection from this danger as well as the dangers or pride and arrogance...
     
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  20. WeWhoSurvived

    WeWhoSurvived Rebel Commander

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    Come to think of it, there are several reference in the OT regarding vision. I'd like to point out a few lines from ROTJ relating to vision, insight, views/perspectives/vantage points, sight itself and eyes.

    Perhaps the most significant references are lines from the Emperor to Luke, and later from Vader to Luke:

    The emperor believes Luke lacks vision.

    EMPEROR
    Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid the price for your lack of vision.

    Vader felt it important to say goodbye to Luke without the barrier of his mask.

    VADER

    Nothing can stop that now. Just for once... let me look on you with my own eyes.

    And other significant scenes:

    Han is blinded by hibernation sickness.

    BOUSHH (Leia)
    Your eyesight will return in time.
    Threepio's eyes are attacked.

    THREEPIO
    Not my eyes! Artoo, help! Quickly, Artoo. Oh! Ohhh! You beast!
    Lando doesn't want to get shot because he thinks Han is blind.

    LANDO
    No, wait! I thought you were blind!​

    Note: This also reminds me of the scene from Ep. IV with Luke putting on the blast shield and testing his lightsaber with the floating blaster probe (there are other scenes for Episodes IV and V regarding vision/sight but for brevity, just wanted to show ROTJ). Taking a "blind" shot by "leap of faith" by "trusting your instincts" may definitely be a continuing theme TFA may draw upon.


    Also, Ben to Luke in ROTJ:

    A certain point of view.

    BEN
    You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a certain point of view.

    LUKE (turning away, derisive)
    A certain point of view?

    BEN
    Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.​

    Also, Luke searches his feelings; realizes Leia is his sister.

    LUKE
    Leia! Leia's my sister.

    BEN
    Your insight serves you well.
    And at the beginning of ROTJ, a less important but notable scene is the "cyclops" droid that pops out of Jabba's Palace door after Threepio knocks.
     
    #60 WeWhoSurvived, Oct 26, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
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