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Rey is more powerful than the Chosen One, his offspring, any dark side user, everyone

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by YubNubBub, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. HarryShoulders

    HarryShoulders Rebel General

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    To be succinct. It's a Skywalker saga and ideally you want it to end positively - not with Kylo and drunk parents. Rehashing possible suggestive visual, and storytelling points from TFA would be fruitless as well. There are those that see them (myself) and those that don't which is odd, but it's an impasse that those 2 groups cannot move beyond. Ultimately, Rey's abilities are less of a major concern for me in the grand scheme. Her piloting and combat skills aren't the issue to me. Clearly, she's gifted in mechanics and one of the books said she was a decent pilot that hoped around Jakku, okay fine. I however, would have liked her to develop differently with Luke, and I would have found her saber skills more believable if she had a melee weapon more akin to a sword vs a staff in TFA. Then it would be very easy to make the leap for her fighting skills, which were already demonstrated. Those are nitpicks though.

    I posed the question to the ether before with no response, so I'll ask you. If down the line, Rey, Finn or Poe have children. Should they be allowed to be the hero of a new story, or can I say -"Wait. Bloodlines don't matter." And then we scrap that character in favor of someone else, a nobody. If you can 100% stand by a "yes", then I will accept everything you say.

    To me SW was never lineage as skill that was important (although it was part per the OT, PT and TCW), it was a lineage that was family if that makes sense. So again you have fans of the older characters with a view that this movie, and now the novel, kind of drags the family name through the dirt instead of ending it with dignity. Anything can happen, but it would be very difficult to explain her as a Skywalker. Kylo can redeem himself in death, but we had Vader so...idk.
     
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  2. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    If one of the current characters has kids, then they should at least be a main character. But they don't have to be the protagonist. That said, so far I don't see a whole lot of procreative potential. If Finn and Rose have a kid, I expect that kid to be in the main lineup, probably a military leader of some sort, but definitely not the central protagonist. If Reylo concieves a kid that one would have some potential to be the main character, but they don't have to be. In TOR, Revan and Bastila's descendant is an important character, but a supporting character to us players. That said, I honestly don't see it happening. Don't get me wrong, I think Ben Solo and Rey have a powerful connection and relationship, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ben wanted to take it there, but I don't think Rey is or should be on board with that.
     
    #202 Mitch Pelon, Mar 1, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  3. HarryShoulders

    HarryShoulders Rebel General

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    I don't want to speak to your stance, but your comments seem to imply family legacy is important within SW, as you mentioned the example of Revan and Bastila.
    Reylo just isn't going to work for me, and it could destroy my view of the ST if it happens, but I know many want that dark prince schtick. Had Kylo been less of a killer and more of an anti-hero using the FO to target those he specifically felt wronged him in a real way (not Han calling him a monster or whatever as a kid) - and he didn't kill 2 people in cold blood moments earlier in TFA, you could at least paint a better case for him. For example, LST would have survived the initial interrogation for the map. Like most topics lately, you can only beat the horse so long, but I still don't get why people think Rey random is unique. So many characters in SW have been important and aren't Skywalkers, and many of them used the force quite well. That is the disconnect for me. This is the Skywalker saga and it needs wrap up with something good for them. To me the end of Luke, Han, Leia and Kylo with the lasting tragedy of Anakin/Padme does not make for that feel good ending. We are on the Anakin trajectory right now for Kylo. Nor does Kylo getting 'back on his feet' work. He would be an outcast and I wouldn't feel pity for him unless they can really pull something out of the bag to make me reconsider. Saving Rey before the events of TFA could at least be a start.

    If Rey is a manifestation of the cosmic force and the light to meet dark perfectly. That could at least have been executed better. Piffer for tat. She bests Kylo in the forest and he beats her for the saber, etc. to riff off the ying/yang, and probably detract from her character power critiques. There is all kinds of trouble and a lot of math with that kind of force explanation though. (Snoke + Kylo = Luke),( Rey - Luke = 2 * (Kylo-Snoke)) in force manna :p. Joking aside Rey is fine, but the character parallels with the forebears of the saber are a bit perplexing for a random anyway you slice it. I'll probably make someones head explode again, but I was watching different parts of SW lately including TCW and Rebels- when I think of Rey not even sweating moving those rocks, I think hmmm....and laugh/cringe. All Jedi and masters seemed to struggle with manipulating the force/matter with a larger scope. Yoda, Kanan, Luke, etc. Anyways, likely I can blame the nitpicky oversight on Johnson and lack of understanding on Daisy? It would have been a place to showcase her working for it.
     
  4. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

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    I appreciate the feedback, and I would have to say YES. That's pretty much what they've already done. I wouldn't mind at all if the next series of saga films were about unrelated characters. I believe that we are going to get more films that carry on Rey, Finn, and Poes story as well though; because, didn't Kathleen Kennedy say they had plans to do so.

    Also, the Skywalker name has not at all been drug through the dirt as bad as everyone believes. In fact, it lives on just as strong as before with the legend of JEDI MASTER Luke Skywalker facing down the first order alone. RJ made that a point in TLJ's ending. As for Kylo, I do believe that he can be redeemed. Redemption has been a theme throughout Star Wars and was a big part of Luke's arc in TLJ. I personally don't care whether he is redeemed or not, but at this point anything can happen.

    I do have to admit though, there is a part of me that hopes Ben Solo is not killed off. Even though I am accepting of a new unrelated set of characters to the Skywalkers, Ben is the last of the Skywalkerrs as we know. I would prefer that they were not all killed off, but we'll just have to wait until episode 9 to see.
     
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  5. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    I agree with you on Reylo. I think there's a connection there, but it would be horribly disappointing for Rey to make that decision.

    As for Family Legacy, I don't know, but Family is important. Luke being Darth Vader's Son gave him the motive, means, and opportunity to bring him back. The key to Anakin, dark or light, was always family. Rogue One has Jyn trying to vindicate and redeem her Father. Ben Solo, try as he might, cannot deny the truth that is his Family. Family is important to Rey because she doesn't have it. I think that's the key. She's isolated, on her own. She needs to find a family, or establish one. Her story is defined by the lack of family. It's less about Legacy, and more about the ties that bind people together, that can swing them from one Side of the Force to the Other.
     
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  6. HarryShoulders

    HarryShoulders Rebel General

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    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    I would be rather bored if we just rewound the tape and hit play on the template and just saw yet another trainee zero to hero.
    I'm much more happy watching a character who is given power and has to learn to cope with having it, and focuses on self identity.
    That's new and interesting because we've already examined what it's like for a zero to hero trainee, and by granting power unto the protagonist we can focus the narrative arc on other matters. In this case, we're focusing on the protagonist's existential self-identity. Where do they belong? Where do they fit? Who are they (to their self)?
    These concepts can be focused on more specifically than if we had to spend more time on training.
    Further, they are much more exciting right out of the gate, as we're not watching a street car get converted into a race machine and having to wait for the final act to see the fully tricked out vehicle. Instead, we have a nearly complete version right out of the gate - we have KIT right away, rather than waiting for Michael Kight to build it by the end of the season.
    It doesn't matter if the examples were sequential or stand-alone. They are stories, regardless how many chapters exist.
    Rey isn't out of things to do based on whether she's capable of not, and Star Wars shouldn't be defined as a "trainee" franchise. That would be horribly trapping and boring to repeat endlessly.
    Rey is a great mix between Luke and Anakin as Luke was a pure zero to hero, while Anakin was a leg-up on that because he was inherently powerful.
    Rey mixes the two and flips the idea around that the training she requires isn't about fighting and magic casting, but instead a matter of training her person and self worth. Every character is shocked by her inherent capability and power, but everyone (so far) has seen her as incomplete as a person, and in being incomplete as a person she was incapable of controlling her power specifically. Until the end of TLJ, her power was radical and wasn't something she could execute with finesse. It was crude, rough, and wild.
    Once she accepted her own self-worth and her own independent self as her identity, as opposed to defining herself through the lens of others, she was able to specifically control her power with much more finesse.

    This is far more interesting since we already had the other variations. It would have not been possible for this narrative arc to exist as a point if Rey had to become capable, because her power would have been partly defined by her incapability, which in turn would lower the value of her self-acceptance's impact upon her power.
    It would have conflated the point because we would not see a power refined in control because of self value and identity, but instead on skill training, and self value and identity would have been an adjunct to that, such that by the end of TLJ her rock lifting would have been far less interesting since it would have been defined by her finally learning enough skill training about Jedi practices to accomplish the task and the self-identity and value would seem more something gained through becoming capable, rather than the other way around where her capability is fully realized by her discovery of self-identity and self-worth.


    Rey didn't want to fight originally. She wanted to go back home, after being forced off of her home due to escalating circumstances that interrupted her interests. She was coaxed into giving that ambition of going "home" up by others along the way, and she latched onto the war effort because she was building her self worth through the lens of belonging to others and having others to care for; something she longed for, having been alone and feeling a want for family for her whole life.
    She was socially needy, and largely defined her self by her worth unto others.
    Even still, she regularly saw herself more like Dobby of Harry Potter - a servant who wasn't worth very much. Everyone else thought she was a bit odd and naive in this given her capabilities, but to her these capabilities were strange, foreign, and did not boost her value to herself.
    She didn't jump up and suggest that she would suffice, but instead leapt at the option to go get Luke to come save the day. She didn't even consider the option to go find Luke to get training to become the hero; she just assumed that her role was to go get Luke and then fade off into whatever other supporting role needed doing if anything really did, and ultimately, get back to looking for her parents.

    Luke and Kylo completely spun that around on her in TLJ and her experiences forced her to take a long hard look at just herself and pull herself up by her own merit and stop thinking that she's lesser than everyone else because she's just a scrounge-rat from Jakku - social garbage worth only as much as she could collect in parts, or serve as a tool in accomplishing some action.

    Kylo and Rey both have great arcs.
    Kylo's is more visceral and emotionally erratic because that's his arc, so his is heavily charged. Kylo's self-identity arc is about tearing away from a bestowed upon identity. He has a family legacy that he wants to be rid of and surpass. He wants to be better than Vader because he feels that only then will he be taken as himself and step out as his own value. His arc, therefore, is rash and aggressive.

    Rey's is softer and more sad because her's isn't about emotions of hate and tearing away from a bestowed identity, but instead one of wanting to be identified by a belonging to a family and legacy. She believed that by not having any such thing, that her value was none, and her self-identity arc was to learn that she has an identity regardless of belonging.

    Their paths to self-identity are governed by opposite perspectives. Kylo believes he will be finally of worth by being rid of the very thing that Rey thought she would only be of worth for having, and they both pull on each other to try to see the value of what the other already has. Kylo wants Rey to see her value of independence, while Rey wants Kylo to value his belonging.
    Both fail to convince the other of this (at least so far) and Rey finds her self through accepting herself, while Kylo almost finds himself through accepting meaningful connection and then falls apart by rejecting it; now being entirely lost on his own, and further enraged.

    Both characters are capable of being fascinating, and mostly folks will likely favor whichever they find interesting.

    Personally I find both of them equally interesting and complex.
    One is a story of the "old money" upper-crust kid who doesn't want to be defined as his family legacy of military aristocrats while also wanting to be the best there is to prove their worth, and the other is a story of a poor orphan who got drafted into the military and happens to find that they have a talent for something they don't really want and wants to belong to someone to deserve the worth everyone keeps given them.

    Both are interesting, and both wouldn't be possible if we changed the way they're narrative arcs are.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #207 Jayson, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  8. Trev

    Trev Rebel General

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    This is just my interpretation, but I assumed Rey’s Force abilities were a natural thing that didn’t require a bunch of training, and that’s why she’s able to wield a lightsaber and use the Force with little training from Luke. Yoda seems to allude to this when he tells Luke there’s nothing in the sacred Jedi texts that Rey doesn’t already know.

    As others have stated, she’s obviously not as powerful as Luke or Snoke, but if we look at Luke in particular, his training was also limited (even if it was still more than Rey got). The Force is obviously strong in the Skywalker family, but we still don’t know much about who her parents are (assuming that Kylo Ren was telling the truth and that she isn’t Luke or Leia’s daughter). If her parents were Force sensitive, even if they weren’t aware of it, perhaps that explains her power. (Remember that, sans Anakin, every other Force sensitive character had only Force sensitive parent.) So, perhaps, if both of her parents were Force sensitive, she’s even stronger in it? Not that the Force is necessarily based on heritage, but I think the Skywalker family is evidence that having a Force sensitive parent definitely increases your chances of being strong in the Force.

    It’s also possible that, with Rey being a manifestation of the will of the Cosmic Force, the power she wields is greater than someone like Anakin because it needs to be. She’s up against Snoke and Kylo Ren, and whether Kylo redeems himself or not, he’s still unstable. Luke is dead, Leia is presumably dead by the time Episode IX starts, so Rey is essentially the galaxy’s last hope, the same way Luke and Leia were before her. Even though Anakin brought balance to the Force, his own grandson ultimately disrupted the balance, and given the immense power of the Skywalker family and the back-and-forth relationship its members have with the Force, it’s safe to say that relying on another Skywalker to restore balance could be a lost cause because of the emotional instability there. Therefore, it makes sense that the last hope of the galaxy—who doesn’t come from the Skywalker bloodline—would need to be more powerful than the last living Skywalker (again, assuming Leia has passed) to ultimately defeat the evil within him and restore balance.

    Maybe I’m overthinking it, though.
     
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  9. Grand Master Galen Marek

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  10. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    I do not think Rey is more powerful than Anakin.
    [​IMG]
    He has been trained to resist Force attacks from Sith masters unlike Rey. Which to me if she were a Mary Sue she would have broke out of Snoke's hold and killed him herself but she was dependent on another.
    [​IMG]
    Of course this scene. Turned the Force into his bi(pod)
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I hope that Ben Solo aka Kylo Ren ends up dead . . . like a corpse. I like him that much. It's not because he's a villain. I simply find him unlikable and badly written. Most of the major characters in this trilogy are badly written. I just don't like Kylo Ren and could not give a rat's ass about him possibly being "redeemed".


    As for the portrayal of Rey's ability with the Force . . . TWO THUMBS DOWN!!! More bad writing.
     
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  12. Buckeye94

    Buckeye94 Rebel General

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    Yes, the new characters are poorly written and not fleshed out enough to make me really care much. They all had potential, but that's been botched beyond belief now. I like Finn and found him more relatable and human than the others, but they gave him a nonsense story in TLJ. Same with Poe, he had the potential to be an interesting character, but they decided it was more important for him to be the purple haired shrew's doormat than flesh him out more. Then we have our infallible Mary Sue Rey. She's doesn't interest me much either. There's no struggle or conflict for her and she comes out of everything unscathed. Meh. I wish I cared more, but I don't.
     
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  13. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Rian's commentary...

    Equals 1.png

    Equals 2.png

    Equals 3.png

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    Source (Language Warning)
     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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  15. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    And equals in power.

    But to be fair I think @YubNubBub and others raise great points.
    I guess it depends how people define "more powerful".

    There are certainly ways I can agree that Rey is more powerful than Kylo.
    At times she appears less conflicted and is more resolute in her relationship with The Force.

    She hasn't seriously questioned her allegiance to her faction and is more ignorant of Force mysteries.
    Maybe this aids her strength?

    At some point Kylo, like Luke, has questioned his most fundamental beliefs in The Force.
    Kylo has asked a big "why?"

    To question is to doubt,
    and they say one iota of doubt can destroy all faith! :eek:;)
     
    #215 Moral Hazard, Mar 12, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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  16. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    What if Rey and Finn have a child? Then what? You forgot to consider that.



    That was one of the DUMBEST plot twists I have ever come across. And a great example of lazy writing. I can't believe that a lot of people bought this crap. It's so dumb.
     
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  17. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    Considered it, and have, for the moment dismissed it. I mean it could happen if that's what JJ really wants, but I just don't see it.

    Either way, if the relationship is important to the plot it will be useful, but only then. Legacies aren't much use if they're only for their own sake.
     
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  18. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Dinesha Kana

    Dinesha Kana Clone Trooper

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    Star Wars is built off from the Skywalkers. There are important but according to episode 8, seems that Star Wars is expanding, expanding even more thn Legends. So if there were to be a new line of family, new important cast, might as well create someone or anything as important as the Skywalkers . Keeping Kylo is like keeping a souvenir. I honestly don't want him dead but you can't possibly keep a character till the end of the series right :/ look at our Luke :/ but yea, hopefully the changes to our beloved series would still be true to its origins. <3
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 17, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 17, 2018 ---
    they are *
     
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