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REYLO - Potential Evidence For & Against

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Yep, I'm going there.This is not a ship I personally helm but it's one I find interesting and seems as divisive as it is popular. I don't feel strongly for or against so thought I'd take the opportunity to explore and analyse the potential evidence.

    Reylo.gif

    The post below isn't my opinion but a collection of thoughts and observations from ReyLo to Foe Yay plagiarised from around the net. Some claims are bound to be weaker than others and a lot of weak evidence doesn't necessarily trump a little strong evidence!

    There will likely be other, perhaps more reasonable explanations and interpretations for the events listed here but the aim is just to try to catalogue and understand the clues people see for and against the ship.

    Some of the motifs and symbolism observed in TFA may well be deliberate but not actually portend anything. They could also be tropes purposefully set up to be subverted in the future.

    There are mixed feelings about shipping. It's generally it's own reward - regardless of accuracy, and one ship doesn't necessarily void another. If I missed anything, misrepresented something, or you just disagree with an observation feel free to share what and why. (Please criticise the ships and not the shippers!)

    Disclaimer
    :
    It seems Reylo/Reyben is often shipped by people who see love, restitution, and "inspiring evil to pursue good" as prominent SW themes. I've also noticed much of the anti-ship commentary comes from those who see the physical control and mind probing perpetrated by Kylo through a lens of gendered violence. This is a fair reading. If examining the merits (or lack thereof) of this ship makes anyone uncomfortable then now might be a good time to disengage.

    kylo lunge.gif

    I'm open to anything that may happen in the future (I'll trust the writers). I believe Rey could well inspire or stimulate change in Kylo by just being the powerful character she is without reciprocating any romantic interest. Although I think Rey is an endearing character who deserves to find both platonic and romantic love, I can also see how it would be brave to write a self-sufficient female protagonist who is not actually defined by a romance at all!


    Potential Evidence AGAINST REYLO:

    • Rey clearly expresses how Kylo makes her feel throughout the film. She experienced him restrain, kidnap, and painfully enter her mind with Force. TFA ends with Rey witnessing Kylo murder her mentor and paralyse her friend.

    Rey expresses her feelings about kylo.gif

    • Rey verbalises her feelings for Kylo clearly in the film. She calls him dehumanising terms such as “creature” and “monster.
    • Canon sources indicate there is "something" recognised in Rey by Kylo and some take this as evidence of a family bond that would render any potential romance unlikely (if the events of TFA weren't already enough).
    UPDATE: Pablo claims "it is you" refers to the "Awakening" Ren felt.​


    Potential Evidence FOR REYLO:


    Kylo
    • He calls her “the girl I've heard so much about” yet the movie shows him hearing very little about this girl. Some think this may symbolise Kylo's possible internal preoccupation with her more than a literal reality.
    • Some interpret Ren as losing clear sight of his goals when he first meets her. Kylo seemed more interested in taking the girl who's seen the map than retrieving the droid who's intel would be dangerous in the enemies hands. He denies a request for more troop support and opts to retreat instead. (Troop transports indicate a starship nearby, likely in orbit.)
    • The film-makers may be driving a point home with the melodramatic blocking of her abduction. The script only states she “falls from frame” and earlier describes Kylo actually touching Rey's face when he first incapacitates her.
    rey faint.gif

    christine faint.gif
    Source
    • Kylo chooses a hands-on approach to transport Rey as opposed to using the Force (we know he can multitask), delegating the task to stormtroopers, or putting her over his shoulder with an arm free for his weapon.

    rey threshold.gif

    • He carries her over the threshold of his ship like a bride - strong symbolism for westerners that has sexual connotations. The gender dynamics and hetero-normative coding seem to matter for this interpretation. Chewbacca carrying unconscious Finn into the Falcon does not seem to be seen as foreshadowing a potential romance!

    bride threshold.png
    Source
    • Kylo absconding with Rey has parallels with the Monster and the Maiden/Hades and Persephone motifs. An attractive young woman dressed in white is kidnapped by a monster in black and is carried unconscious, bridal style back to their lair. Such stories (often centuries old) can involve sexual awakening and the young woman often learns to feel compassion for a beast that is isolated and lacks love from others.

    monster maiden.png monsters.gif
    Source
    • Kylo refers to her as his “guest” and she is treated differently in interrogation than the casual brutality used with other First Order resistors. She lacks any of the blood and bruises we saw on Poe and her restraints don't seem uncomfortably tight. He takes a non-threatening position by crouching in the corner looking up at her from a distance instead of looming over her.
    • He seems surprised she still wants to kill him despite his “generosity”.
    • He decides to expose part of his true self to her. Kylo hides behind many layers and rarely chooses to shed his intimidating persona.
    • His wandering eyes give her a thorough examination.
    creepy gaze.gif
    • Kylo is reluctant to mind probe Rey by Force and admits as much yet shows no hesitance before mind probing Poe.
    • Some see love-hearts in his eyes in the form of light reflections.
    lovehearts3.png
    • Some see a general fixation become a personal fixation when he rifles through her thoughts seeing feelings they share - loneliness, isolation, a lack of father-figure, longing for belonging etc.
    • He finds her captivating and fascinating.
    kylo stare.gif
    • Kylo treats her differently when dueling compared to others. When Kylo takes out Rey by slamming her into a tree it is a tactical decision as she is the more dangerous opponent. When she wields the legacy saber Kylo follows her slowly favoring disarming strikes and defending himself. When she still won't yield he basically begs her to be his student instead of pushing her off a cliff.


    Rey
    • She has a connection to Kylo beyond the physical. She had visions of him before she met him and in one he appears to save her (in SW the people dreamed about by those strong in the Force generally are important to them). So far her visions are of things that have all happened or are to happen although they aren't always a perfectly accurate representation of reality.

    Vision save.gif

    • Rey becomes a part of Kylo's light-side life by bonding with his parents and flying his legacy ship. source
    • Her reaction to Kylo's unmasking is sometimes interpreted as a mix of surprise and self-consciousness in response to his physical appearance.
    unmasking reaction.gif
    • She looks back before entering the Falcon showing interest in Kylo's fate. (The look back often carries serious cinematic meaning.)
    Rey looks back.gif



    Kylo & Rey
    • Kylo and Rey are both seen as interesting mystery boxes by some viewers. They are nemeses that are drawn to each other in some way other than just enmity. They could, from a certain point of view, be interpreted as kindred spirits.
    • They are each others equal - in their duality, their Force abilities, their vulnerabilities and insecurities. They are both scared, lonely, isolated, lacked relatable father-figures while young and were desperate for platonic love and belonging. They share similarities in costume, lighting, and mirror each other on the poster.
    • They share moments of intimacy and bonding - they know each others deepest fears.
    • They both straddle the Light and the Dark. Kylo has compassion for Rey and during fights Rey could be interpreted as propelling herself with anger. Kylo is tempted to turn back to the light and Rey is tempted to turn to the dark.
    • They share moments of tension and release that could be interpreted as sensual, sexual or both.
    fight gaze.gif

    interrogation gaze.gif

    Other Potential Factors
    • For people looking to ship a heterosexual relationship for Kylo with a prominent human being from The Force Awakens who’s not his mother, Rey is the only contender. source
    • A producer forcasted an interesting relationship between hero and villain.
    • Their protagonist/antagonist friction was the primary conflict in TFA and "the primary conflict in any good story will never, ever remain static." source
    • Some see TFA's screenplay as a 'compare and contrast chart' highlighting Kylo's treatment of Poe and Finn against his treatment of Rey.
    • Lucasfilm's selection of art for Celebration Europe 2016 included the rockstar-esque and pulp romance looking poster "Rey's Abduction" by Erik Maell.
    celebration art.png
    • Prominent fairytale themes may portend a fairytale romance. We know SW includes knights and princesses and the ST filmakers like using and subverting these kinds of tropes.
    TFA shows us a girl lost in the woods being chased and snatched by a predator. Later a hero draws his sword against a hissing, fire wielding dragon to protect an unconscious Rey. The trope is then subverted with the "rescued damsel” slaying the dragon while the hero lies unconscious. Some see this heroine as a knight who might break the spell over the Monster/Dragon and reveal the Princess' son.​
    Personal Disclosure: I see some “Villainous Crush” in Kylo's behaviour and Finn's "gotta boyfriend?" implies a physical attraction but I know it takes two to tango and so far Rey seems callow and either oblivious or uninterested. I saw her hug and kiss Finn in TFA but interpret it within a friendship/family purview. Being rescued by a new family means a lot to Rey and where somebody is kissed means a lot on film!

    For the record I also see Rey and Kylo as adverseries like Superman and Lex Luther or Batman and The Joker where writers could explore a love/hate angle. I see them as enemy combatants on opposing sides of a war with fates intertwined. I think they both are equals in power and capable of overpowering the other yet Rey turn's the tables on Kylo every meeting since her interrogation. Of course their equality does not justify one abusing or intimidating the other.
     
    #1 Moral Hazard, Nov 1, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  2. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    @Moral Hazard be like:

    anigif_enhanced-8136-1396312547-1.gif

    O man, you are a brave one!

    My reactions to your OP and this thread summarized thusly:

    tumblr_lgk5p2bLx61qb4zzx.gif

    ba64d707660dc8a08f5e770f646d48aa21cb2909.gif

    giphy.gif
     
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  3. MaximoFilms

    MaximoFilms Rebel General

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    Correct me if I'm remembering this wrong, but I think it was rumored a while back that when Kylo shows up on Ach-To with the Knights of Ren, he and Rey have a conversation that Luke isn't very happy with. Apparently, Rey shows compassion for Kylo in this scene.
    I must say, I like the idea of that and I kinda hope that "Reylo" will happen (That is, if they are not related of course).
    It would trigger conflict between Luke and Rey, pull Rey to the dark side and Ben would feel more torn than ever before.
     
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  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    For now I'll just say that this trilogy needs sexing up. It's a bit dull and lacking the humanity of a bit of sexual tension. ReyLo would offer that whilst providing a good dose of much needed originality.

    I suggested ReyLo could and should be a thing prior to TFA and I stand by it. No happy ending silliness though...
     
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  5. MaximoFilms

    MaximoFilms Rebel General

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    From JJ's commentary:
    “One of the new relationships that we were focusing on was between Kylo Ren and Rey. They’ve never met but he’s heard of this girl. And so, now comes a moment when their meeting is inevitable. […] And now we’re back to our heroine. And this moment where she is about to, for the first time, be confronted by Kylo Ren, a character who she’s going to have a very interesting relationship with moving forward."
     
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  6. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Maybe not so much. Cantina members seem a pretty civil bunch and this forum doesn't seem to suffer from the reputation that preceedes some other sites.
    That long!? I stole your running list thread format again in case you hadn't noticed.
    Thanks, I put that one up there.
     
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  7. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I even made a trailer that hinted at it! Ha!
    "I feel it too...don't be afraid".
    I might've misread that piece of dialogue when I heard it from the Kylo toy but I immediately thought: "Oh, they have feelings for each other!".

    Why you double crossin' no good swindler! :p
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 2, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 2, 2016 ---
    The way I approach this whole idea is really in looking where I think Rey's story will go.
    For me, at some point, she is going to face the Dark Side in herself.
    This will mean conflict for her but it will also mean she will be better placed to sympathise with Kylo Ren/Ben Solo.
    She'll be able to understand what happened to Ben much better and perhaps, depending on what happens, actually feel the same way about certain things or certain people.

    Already, we see that Rey and Ren share similar experiences both in terms of their youths and in terms of their power.
    They are each on a path that comes together at certain points. In many ways, they appear to be "kindred spirits" in the sense that their destinies are interlinked.
    We also know that Ren has compassion for Rey and wants to teach her.

    Therefore in my mind there will come a point where Rey sees Ren differently from the monster who murdered his father. And considering the similarities between the two, I see a great potential for a romantic connection between the two of them. This idea for me offers both originality and great conflict for the story:

    1. How will Rey react to her feelings for the man who killed Han Solo?
    2. How will Rey's friends deal with her feelings for Ren?
    3. Will Rey be able to pull Ren back into the light or will it go the other way?
    4. How will Luke react? Does he want Rey to kill Ren? Will this cause conflict between her and Luke?
    5. What happened in the past? Does Ren know something that connects Luke to Rey's folks in a negative way?

    I find them interesting questions and the possible answers could mean an unpredictable ending rather than "Luke trains Rey, Rey defeats Ren and Snoke and there is peace". This way we will be left guessing:

    Will Rey turn to the Dark Side with evil Ren?
    Will Ren be redeemed but Rey turn bad and their roles be reversed?
    Will Rey redeem Ben and both start the Jedi anew?
    Will Ben die for Rey?
    Will Rey die for Ben?
     
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  8. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Well look at that. We already knew Daisy Ridley was aware of Reylo, as she had liked and commented on Reylo fanart while she was on Instagram.
    In a most recent interview, she says to be following the conversation about it even if she is no longer on Instagram. Very very interesting indeed.

    Daisy Ridley on Putting Her Force Behind 'Eagle Huntress,' Funemployment, and the 'Reylo' Phenomenon

    https://www.yahoo.com/movies/daisy-...yment-and-the-reylo-phenomenon-145603240.html

    Also, as per JJ Abrams TFA commentary - when Kylo takes off his helmet for Rey: "But when his mask comes off, you see Adam Driver, and he just looks like a sort of prince."

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Well, it's not like she makes a joke out of it which one would imagine she would do if they were actually siblings or cousins. Having said that, she brings it up herself which would kind of go against the usual position of not mentioning anything potentially spoilerific!
     
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    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    That's just because of our individual, inhuman restraint not to jump in a thread like this and make the feathers fly. :p
     
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  11. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Not only she doesn't say it jokingly, she seems to be following the conversations about it and deems them "really cool, regardless of where it ends up it’s the conversation that’s really interesting".
    Or maybe, she was advised to sort of throw it out there to stir things up and make us talk and speculate about it even more? (and give the staunch anti-Reylos a heart attack?) ;)

    That was a perfectly good post until its ending silliness...:p
     
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  12. Jedihopper

    Jedihopper Rebel General

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    To me, those quotes from the Novelization and script are enough to debunk it - he senses "something", an energy connecting them, he recognizes her as "You!", as "somebody"...

    She was likely originally intended to be the long-lost sister, then switched to either cousin or random. (force tree girl?)

    But what he's sensing is never described or intended to be romantic. It's a Force connection, one that he's not sure why is there...(hint: she's family. Or at least, originally was designed to be)

    The whole ReyLo thing is bunk to me - it's basically built off the misinterpretation of a few glances or gestures...

    The is not one bit of actual dialogue, or action that indicates romance or love.

    What there is, is torture, murder, darkness, anger, and a fight.

    Disney is not going to have their heroine progressive feminist hero fall for her abuser captor...she might pull him back to the light because she's just that stinkin' good and awesome, but she's never going to be with him.

    That GIF is enough to send men to war. Daisy is working some serious smolder there...
     
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  13. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Fair call. Kylo's interest could be reduced to "he treats her with less casual brutality than others" and any interpretation of interest by Rey perhaps as "grasping at straws". I was surprised in the end that there seemed to be a little more merit to the ship than just people projecting on a rorchacht test although it relies heavily on potential foreshadowing and drastic changes in characters and events.
    Disney is not above doing exactly what you descibed... :eek:



    Luckily this is a completely different set of characters and power dynamics and any romance seems unlikely at this stage. The points you touched on about Disney and falling for abusers are concerns I shared but no longer see as tenable since looking deeper into this Reylo ship business. These concerns often reduce to two common arguments I found about the Reylo ship.
    • The "bad example" argument.
    Fiction is about description not prescription. In some cases impressionable minds can take the "life imitates art" route (see ↑) but it reminds me a little of the arguments by people worried that gay characters in fiction will make the audience gay.

    It's worth remembering, as someone else posted, that fiction can also serve as a safe, consequence-free zone to explore interesting dynamics that are not always black and white or ideal. It is common for people to be drawn to problematic relationships in fiction and to find them interesting. Most forms of fiction will dive into dark realms because it offers exploration into human nature that can’t be grasped or condoned in reality. That does not mean that the abuse that takes place is excused or modeled in real life but, ultimately, fiction isn’t there to be a role model or to teach people's kid's how to live.
    • The "Reylo is shipping a victim with her abuser" argument.
    I don't see much merit in this angle myself (anymore) although I think sensitivity to gendered violence is important and a fair reading in some SW scenes. But unlike Stockholm Syndrome and cycles of abuse, this hero/villain relationship is not one where someone holds more power than the other.

    Like I noted in the initial post this equality does not justify intimidation or abuse but these are enemy combatants in war and are going to hurt each other. Anyone coming away from the movie seeing Rey as a victim surprises me. She turns the tables on him every time from interrogation on and reciprocates every "abuse" bar the kidnapping or pain involved in Dark Side mind probing.

    I think the mind probing hysteria online often makes over-exagerrated comparisons. In Star Wars Force users from both sides enter enemies minds without consent with the only difference seeming to be the Dark side version contains some pain - or as one person put it "is the equivalent of having your diary read in front of you while you have a headache."

    The abuser/victim angle also seems to imply some moral distinction between plutonic or romantic abuse which I don't see - or perhaps the people presenting it don't like any SW films! The saga is full of abuse between plutonic and romantic pair bonds and the abuse is never glamorized. The "torture, murder, darkness, anger and fights" you refer to also occured in A New Hope, Empire, and Jedi but culminated with redemption, tears, and love in the end.


    Vader Luke.gif

    Well,...not for everyone I guess!

    Leia Torture.gif
     
    #13 Moral Hazard, Nov 4, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
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  14. Jedi General

    Jedi General Force Attuned

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    Great post, @Moral Hazard! I, for one, am not against Reylo. I would not be opposed to, and would rather enjoy, seeing it in the films ONLY if it fits and actually adds something to the story. I wouldn't want it to be a pointless romance or anything.
     
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    well said!

    even though i don't take a hard line on this "ship", i feel like the writing might be on the wall.
    at the very least at the moment it seems obvious that there is a villainous crush going on.

    that could get quashed in the next film, but Kylo Ren is obviously interested in Rey.
    while not necessarily blatantly sexual or romantic, is more than just a passing curiosity about her identity.

    in Ren's world of me me me, she's not interesting because she's competition or potentially family, but simply because she is a reflection of himself.
    in his loneliness he desires that. call it a playmate, a companion, a lover--perhaps he doesn't even necessarily recognize it as such.
    it's just this wondrous "other" who maybe knows precisely what it's like to experience the galaxy the way he does.

    that's what i see going on. it still has the potential to go any number of ways, but the energy/power/connection is most certainly there.

    while the discourse about abuse is interesting (and maybe useful because it's a conversation worth having), i think applying it so heavy handed here to a space fairy tale is not helpful because it essentially defines Rey by her victimization rather than her heroism. as stated, she bests her opponent in every instance, and ultimately drops him in the snow, helpless and bleeding. why would we want to describe this strong, resilient, and resourceful woman as a victim?
     
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  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    One of the things that people complained about in the PT was the lack of humanity. That people were cardboard cutouts, the Jedi were soulless etc etc.
    For me, at least Anakin thought with his pants - a motivating factor in all men! In TFA there is a small hint of sexual attraction with Finn and his feelings for Rey but it doesn't go very far. (Also the old Poe/Finn thing but let's no go there yet!). And so connecting to this, the idea that Kylo wouldn't have felt something sexual towards Rey doesn't add up for me. Turning to the Dark Side doesn't make one inhuman (in regards to acting naturally rather than the idea of being barbaric), one could argue it does the opposite - it heightens the emotions and passions.
    Therefore, I find it hard to believe that Ren, who doesn't know who Rey is thus doesn't think she is related, wasn't attracted to her.
    Here is an attractive girl, powerful, witty and strong in herself who also reflects Ren's own inner thoughts and feelings. Why on earth wouldn't he be attracted to her?
    Thus I would then suggest he was and is and if it were later revealed that she is related to him, he'd feel a bit weird about that and we'd have another Luke/Leia incestuous-near-miss thing going on!

    And when you consider that scene in Star Wars, the much derided moment where brother and sister kiss, wouldn't anyone who made another Star Wars film want to avoid that at all costs? Even the smallest suggestion of it? The risk that it appears that Ren/Rey are attracted to one another?

    Of course, it might be all innocent and they might not have envisaged people getting all whipped up in a frenzy over ReyLo. But these are clever, seasoned storytellers. The imagery is abundantly clear and it is obvious that Ren has "feelings" for Rey. At the very least, they set up the possibility of ReyLo. I'd then find it very odd if they turn out to be related and both quash any chance of that as well as making people feel icky for thinking it in the first place!

    This of course isn't me arguing for a reciprocal attraction from Rey's POV - just that I don't think they're related and that Ren from the get go would have had the hots for Rey...
     
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  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    here's the thing about Ren, though (and i'm not a guy, so i'm just observing his behavior/manner here): this is a guy who despite obvious impulse control problems, by all appearances, seems rather pent.

    i mean, look at him: he's trussed up in black from his toes to the tip of his head in a costume that actually conceals most everything about his body.
    whatever Adam Driver's natural sexual magnetism is, it's buried. deep.
    is that for the benefit of the audience so that the reveal of his face (again) is heightened?
    or is it about the character's own awareness/relationship with his physical body. or both?

    i'm not convinced 100% that Ren has the "hots" for Rey in a way that he could articulate.
    i think he's too emotionally immature and/or too repressed.
    or, otherwise too focused on his endgame goals to even consider that he might be distracted sexually.

    not saying he may not actually be distracted sexually. just that he isn't necessarily cognizant of it.
    i still think his primary attraction to Rey is as a playmate (for lack of a better word). he wants a friend.
     
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  18. Quicksilver

    Quicksilver Rebelscum

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    30-year-old Ben acting as a boy. He needs therapy.
     
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  19. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    no argument there. : o p
     
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  20. Quicksilver

    Quicksilver Rebelscum

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    It is obvious.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Rey can't live happily with Ben without therapy.
     
    #20 Quicksilver, Nov 4, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
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