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REYLO - Potential Evidence For & Against

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. 77th

    77th Force Sensitive

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    I firmly believe this tread should had a One Direction Soundtrack and Emojis

    (and now back to StarWars)
     
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i think you misunderstood me.
    when i said "no argument", i didn't meant you weren't offering one, i meant i have no argument against you--i agree! : D
    the kid needs serious help. i just hope he gets it.
     
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  3. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. The film is ambiguous enough for multiple readings and and I can read a sexual obliviousness into both Rey and Ren. (Thanks for the room to speculate Lucasfilm!)

    I'm curious about whether shippers think the cues they see in TFA might be conscious or subconscious from the perspective of the characters. I had actually asked the question in the original post but removed it.
     
    #23 Moral Hazard, Nov 4, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
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  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i think that obliviousness is what drives a lot of the shipping in TFA, frankly.
     
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  5. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Well, we do have gifs. :p

    (And now for something completely different).

    [​IMG]

    Some very talented people on Youtube (and others less talented) have made pretty decent music videos. Here is one great one.



    But, to be back to the more serious discussion. There are two very important things from JJ Abrams's commentary that I haven't seen people discussing and I think are potentially quite telling.

    Firstly, JJ comments that when Kylo takes of his mask "he just looks like a sort of prince", which he is. One he looks gorgeous, and second he technically is prince of Alderaan, so Adam was deliberately made to look the lost (enchanted/cursed) prince look. Some of us have been pointing over and over about how the make up, hair etc choice of Adam's look was deliberate, and JJ's commentary confirms it.

    But the second bit, also related to Kylo's unmasking and immediately following the comment of him looking like a prince is the following very interesting (and related) passage as part of comment for Kylo's unmasking for Rey: "But the question of why he wears the mask was answered in his insecurity. That he was involved with the Knights of Ren, which we have a whole backstory for. But the idea that he was using that mask for intimidation, that he, like many terrorists, is a coward, and he’s someone who’s hiding, who’s trying to scare you. And he knows that what you don’t see is more frightening. And I think he’s also got a little bit of a Vader wish, that he’s trying to emulate his grandfather.”
    That's very interesting, as it also connects with the piece of dialogue in the movie when Kylo comments that rey still wants to kill him, and she says that "That happens when she is being hunted by a creature in a mask".

    And then, Kylo/Ben takes off that mask that we are told he wears because he is hiding and because he wants to appear intimidating and frightening, and shows/reveals his princely self to Rey.
    I have seen people saying that, he was manipulating her, but I think it is more than obvious that he genuinely was fascinated by her and did not want to be intimidating or frightening. (He tells her not to be afraid, etc.)
    And all of this is BEFOR he is even aware she is force sensitive, which I think is important as his interest towards Rey at least at first seems to be (as @master_shaitan put it, a young man seeing an attractive young woman).


    tumblr_o8htf7q3yB1t3n54uo1_500.gif tumblr_o62h69DzRh1v3ekngo2_400.gif
    Which I can't help being reminded of his dad's far than smooth moves on mom back in ESB.

    1.gif

    Of course, I'm certainly not at all claiming that the dynamic is the same, but the visual and metaphorical parallel is striking...Kylo carrying Rey in his arms "bridal style" and holding her (against her will) as his "guest" (a direct and I would say very blatant callback to the situation in the Beauty and the Beast) is very interesting.

    And definetely, as things stand now, while he is definetely interested, Rey is (at least on a sane level) not, and he will have to do more than just hold her to win her over.

    So, he was definetely very intrigued by her (so much so that he takes her) before he even knew she is Force sensitive, and before she demonstrated she is his equal in power. He was instinctively drawn to her, and it was hinted that despite everything she is somewhat also drawn to him as well (as per novelization description).

    And this is his look when her Force sensitivity to be strong was confirmed without any doubt. He is simply smitten.

    tumblr_o4rh9vVrLd1rszoo3o6_r2_250 (1).gif

    This is the look, "Wonderful girl, I'm either gonna kill her, or I'm beginning to like her".

    The question is, how will that relationship continue and develop going forth...

    (And as @master_shaitan pointed out, it would be very strange indeed if Ben/Kylo and Rey end up to be related later as that would make no sense at all. In the case of Luke and Leia, GL simply hadn't planned them initially to be siblings, but in this case, surely TPTB know very who Rey is...)

    I'm definetely not a "shipper", because that is silly and I'm too old and out of touch with this current decade of social media silliness (I'll admit though, gifs are great!), but from my very 1st viewing of TFA I definetely immediately saw the absolutely great potential of a space fairy tale love story and I will be really very surprised indeed if it isn't planned to be one. (And I'm academically researching basically fairy tales, so I would hope my senses are attuned to knowing that.)

    I will not be terribly upset if there wasn't romance between those two (but it will be such a missed opportunity!), and the only thing that I will not find acceptable is not saving Ben Solo, but if there is an extra side of a (potentially epic) love story I think it would be grand.
     
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  6. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Fair points that are worth listing in the "potential evidence FOR" column along with some points I found a pro Reylo shipper making online: (source)

    Kylo Ren and Rey.png
     
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  7. Quicksilver

    Quicksilver Rebelscum

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    I'm sorry. Yes, I had misunderstood your comment
    although my GIFs is not excessive.
     
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  8. Mbruno

    Mbruno Rebelscum

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    Just a side comment: I know Leia gave up her succession rights after Alderaan was destroyed, but, if the Alderaan monarchy still existed, Ben would be the heir apparent to the royal dynasty, so, technically, he is actually a prince.
     
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  9. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Yep. This is exactly what I meant in my post as well when I said he is the prince of Alderaan.
    So, yes, he is technically actually a prince. Not only that he looks like one, or because of JJ's remark in the commentary to that effect.

    So the enchanted prince turned into a monster which is not his true nature trope of Beauty and the Beast (and other fairy tales) is really rather strong.

    And speaking of fairytales, I came across a clever Youtube video comparing visual and musical elements to Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast, in which the saber is the crystal shoe of Cinderella that can fit only her, which is rather clever as for exactly that moment where Rey runs from Maz's castle JJ indeed compares Rey to Cinderella, which she is - in TFA she is a scavenger. (And the one who has to come back is Ben, not so much Luke.)
    So her with her humble look and beginning and him the lost enchanted prince of Alderaan "will have a very interesting relationship going forward".

     
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    we touched on this before, long long ago in a thread far far away, but there's also an interesting question here about Ren Ben's development.
    he is the only film Force user aside from Anakin who knew he was strong in the Force as a child.
    Anakin should have had the Jedi to guide him through the worst of his adolescence (yeah, they did a bang-up job).
    who was there for Ben? possibly Luke?

    again, you have this very powerful kid who might have been (whether on purpose or by accident) separated from his Force-null peers and brought up in a more ascetic environment? or (for better or worse) brought up with them despite being an outsider?
    from his behavior in TFA it suggests he doesn't know how to get along with others--how to even talk to them.
    he can barely behave himself talking to Snoke.

    my point being, where others may see him being manipulative, i just see an awkward duck.
    the spoiled/cursed/lost prince who needs a guiding hand.

    i'm pretty sure he knew.
    he was anticipating her from the start (as you said, instinctively).
    he's likely seen her as she has seen him. he only wanted/needed actual confirmation, which he finally gets in that "smitten" moment.
    he even guards his knowledge from Snoke.
    he tells Snoke she's strong in the Force, but i'm sure he suspects more (she is the awakening), but he omits telling him that because:
    1.) he wants to confirm his suspicions, 2.) he covets her, and 3.) he possibly knows his destiny is bound to hers already.
     
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  11. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Well he IS brainwashed.
     
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    I have so much tho say about this topic, which I will eventually, but for now I have one question to ask....JJ in that famous commentary mentions not only a prince....at one point he mentiones a 'prince and a princess'
    Could our heroine have a royal background? If so, I personally would prefer it to be of Mandalorian origin rather then Emperial :p
     
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  13. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Yes, indeed, JJ's commentary says:
    “You’re probably going to have a castle, and a prince and a princess, if you’re looking at a fairy tale.”
    / “She is . . . almost like Cinderella.”
    / “When his mask comes off . . . he looks like a sort of prince.”


    I myself am a staunch supporter of Obi-Wan and Satine too as grandparents (and there is enough background story already established to make that a very viable and possible option), but if it's only Obi-Wan as grandfather I'd be perfectly happy with that too...There are so many great points for Rey being Obi-Wan's granddaughter and I've discussed them elsewhere many times as I find Rey being the possible Kenobi descendant the most satisfying thing for her parentage and for the story....Here, here and also here for example.

    Even if she wasn't, she could always become a princess, by marrying a prince. Just like Belle and Cinderella.
     
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  14. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Well, that is an interesting tidbit that just dropped. Apparently Eddie Redmayne has auditioned to play (he thinks) Kylo Ren by being asked to act out Pride and Prejudice lines for his audition...Hm. I have many times been half-joking (but really not joking) how Kylo and Rey's relationship will be like that of Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet, but in space and with magic. Maybe I was not being very far from the truth after all...

    tumblr_moqsecAnqU1rlurexo1_400.gif

    Eddie Redmayne reveals he auditioned to play Kylo Ren in Star Wars

    http://www.ew.com/article/2016/11/0...n?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter
     
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  15. Pomojema

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    The only way that I could see such a relationship working is if Kylo Ren undergoes a massive amount of character development... and Rey's character development is subsequently thrown into the garbage chute. This is no Beauty & The Beast fable, and it shouldn't be treated that way to appease a vocal minority on the Tumblrsphere. If he didn't kill his father, I could have seen Ben and Rey eventually becoming a thing, but that action cemented him as a monster in Rey's eyes (even if she doesn't explicitly know that he and Han are related).

    I felt that what made Ben's creepy advances toward Rey work was just that - the fact that they were creepy. It was essentially as though Adam Driver took what made Hayden Christensen's portrayal of Anakin unintentionally awkward and played with it in such a way that he looked deeply unhealthy, contributing to his status as an utterly unhinged, possessive, man-child. (Which, I would like to stress, is a good thing.) He has a perverse fascination with Rey as a person based on her being "the girl I've heard so much about" (with the obvious implication being that it's Force-related), but it seems more like he's in love with the idea of her than he actually cares for her. (Seriously, re-watch the rapey scene where he's trying to probe into her mind and tell me that that resembles anything related to a healthy relationship.)

    I believe that Rey, to some extent, will empathize with him for the miserable situation he's in based on what we know about him and what she'll learn about him from Luke. But it will be like the kind of empathy you have to a rabies-infested dog - you feel bad for him, but the sad truth is that he's either going to have to undergo a lot of painfully unpleasant treatment for his own good or he'll have to be put down altogether. The best way that this story works is if it's a completely one-sided obsession on Ben's part. If Rey were to reciprocate his feelings (and there's no sign that she's even remotely considering doing that), then Star Wars would essentially turn into Space Twilight and have its protagonist turn head-over-heels to a creepy, unsympathetic pretty boy because of reasons.
     
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  16. FN-3263827

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    i don't disagree with anything you've said pertaining to the current state of their "relationship". he's creepy and awkward and probably has never legitimately cared selflessly for anyone.

    where i disagree is in thinking that killing Han cements anything. Rey thinks he's a monster now (and she's right). and yes, there's a strong likelihood the best she might care for him is in a pathetic sensibility: she'll help him because it's the right thing to do.
    but i don't think that's about Han necessarily. Han is not a magical stopgap to people thinking or feeling differently about Ben (well, it is for some people, obviously, but it's not a "given").

    and there's still a lot of story to happen and who knows what might turn Rey's rage into pity and then into something else. why would Rey's character development go into the garbage if she had even the slightest feeling for this guy if he came back to the Light? that's sort of black and white thinking. don't forget that Rey is going to be challenged by the Dark (we know she is), so who knows what's in store for her and for her connection to Ren Ben. if you have a psychic bond through the Force, would it not give you deeper insight into the true heart of another person (for example)? and though i didn't watch the show, wasn't Adam Driver's character on Girls a creepy unhinged weirdo until he suddenly became the sanest person in the room? (just as an example of evolution).

    i dunno. i think it's premature to call this one. it's not going to crumble into Twilight because a vocal minority on a forum thinks so (to use your own hyperbole ~ ha!). it doesn't have to, anyway. a good story, well-told can convince us of anything. i continue to keep an open mind.
     
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  17. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Yeah I've always charitably attributed this presumption to all Reylo promoters. I don't see how it could work otherwise...

    REY: "I'll see you later babe, have fun tracking down and killing all my friends!"
    I fully agree with the creepy Anakin channeling making a good antagonist and the complete lack of interest by Rey.

    I don't see much sense in the Twilight comparisons though. This brooding, "pretty boy" is not a protagonist, and if he becomes one (Return of the Ben) he is unlikely to be "creepy and unsympathetic".
     
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    The general point I was trying to make is that Ben Solo very much has the kind of vibe that Edward Cullen does (even though that was not the intent of Twilight's author, though it was the intent with the screenwriters of The Force Awakens) - a possessive, borderline-abusive personality that does not change as a result of becoming "good". The point I was trying to make was more along the lines of a suggestion that this sort of thing is to be considered an ideal relationship by shippers, like with the Bella/Edward dynamic. It isn't. It's unhealthy.

    Paternicide is seen as being awful and unforgivable in fiction provided that the father does not have it coming (which Han didn't; even if he wasn't the best father, nothing indicates that he was abusive to his son in any way). That's not going to be something that they're just going to have to gloss over, and I highly suspect that we're going to get a scene where Leia lets him know how absolutely furious she is at him. If Ben does find redemption in some way, he won't be getting a happy ending like Anakin did - that's just the path he chose, and we know that they aren't going to risk having the other two movies be "too similar" to TESB and ROTJ.
     
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  19. Luciferous

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    I don't think they ever have a relationship, but I think he could develop unrequited feelings for her that lead to his redemption. Kind of a Snape-Lilly Potter type deal.
     
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  20. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    then the emporer has already won.png
    True that - who could view that dynamic as foundation for a healthy romance? I haven't actually encountered Reylo shippers out there trying to ship future Rey with the TFA-existing Kylo but I guess I shouldn't be surprised if they're out there.

    Rey expresses her feelings about kylo.gif

    I personally don't see much any likelihood of this ship coming to pass (I'm open to being wrong) although I could see both characters changing and perhaps being required to combine forces at some stage. The primary conflict in a good story can't remain static but there are plenty of ways other than romance for this to happen.
    I too don't see a happy ending redemption arc although I wouldn't put it past good writers to deliver almost any synopsis in a satisfying way. Such divisive ideas could even be utilised in-universe to introduce conflict and show differences between characterss.

    After all, some allies were less forgiving about Vader's heel-face turn than others...

    leia torture.gif
     
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