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REYLO - Potential Evidence For & Against

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. Pomojema

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    I never thought of it from that perspective, but yeah, I totally get that argument. If you're going to present someone as a bad guy who has done something horrifically unforgivable, then you're not going to give them a happy ending, even if they end up redeeming themselves for past sins. Technically, they already did the opposite with Darth Vader, but they've established in-universe that he'll be remembered not as a heroic Jedi, but a war criminal and a monster whose presence tarnishes his daughter's name years after his death. But hey, at least he got to die happy knowing that his son would live.

    Having the exact same story arc happen with Kylo Ren would not only be completely redundant, but a waste of a character. The entire point of his story arc is to show what idolizing Darth Vader would do to a person living in the Star Wars universe, and the end result is that Ben Solo became a complete wreck of a human being whose life has only gotten worse since pursuing a path of evil. So naturally, reaching the exact same conclusion with no variance to it would turn Kylo Ren from being a Darth Vader wannabe to Darth Vader 2.0, and from a story standpoint, that's really lazy writing.
     
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  2. Rogues1138

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    I agree with Lancebacca, his point really hit home. Star Wars is a family film, heck I got into it when I was 7 years old. I pleaded with my mum to watch it the moment I saw the trailer way back in '77. She took me, my sister, and my best friend to the local drive-in theater. By the time ROTJ came out I was into girls so I ended up watching it on video tape. haha I used to watch trek, westerns, the old flash garden serials, martial arts flicks, sci-fi, cartoons...etc, so at that young age I knew SW was for me. Moreover, at my age now I want a more serious and darker SW, so I am happy that they got RJ(Looper) to direct ep.8 but I think the powers that be like KK will oversee it, be there to curb it, if it goes too far. She said it herself, she wants to see more female leads. I don't see her approving Rey marrying the monster who killed his dad.
     
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  3. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Here goes a big post. (Sorry about that, but it seems it needs to be explained).

    This is a fairytale. In this space fairytale (and I'm literally quoting Kathleen Kennedy here) "Kylo Ren seems to have taken many bad decisions, but they aren’t necessarily bad decisions within the context of Star Wars, where they can lead to almost anything."

    Judging from the feelings Leia has about her son in Bloodline it would seem that until his 23rd year or so Ben was a good young man who Leia clearly loves and trusts, thus he has been a bad boy for only a few years (5-6) and let's face it, he doesn't seem fully immersed into villainy and wickedness when we see him in TFA and importantly let me remind everyone that we still don't know what exactly happened at Luke's school of Force space wizardry.

    So, if we see him going forward seeing the errors of his ways (he seems to be on the brink of doing so already in TFA) and radically start making good decisions, and if he comes back to the good side and becomes good again, and turns his back to FO and the manipulative Snoke (who god knows since when and how has been corrupting him in secret, "from the shadows"), why not give him the chance to rehabilitate and have a good ending?!

    In Star Wars that is not only not a problem, but actually is at the core of the ethics portrayed throughout the saga.

    We know that his mom, who is probably the most cool headed of them all, apparently has the information that her son (allegedly) killed all Luke's other students and burned his school down which let to his uncle's exile; that he took on the name Kylo Ren and joined the First Order; that he murdered Lor San Tekka (apparently an old Leia's ally) and ordered the wiping out of the Jakku village (which by the way were heavily armed and definetely shot first) that was harboring him (she surely knows all that since Poe lived to tell her about it and even if Poe doesn't know who Kylo really is, his description tipped Leia surely who that tall dark Force sensitive bad*** really was), and after knowing all that information, Leia says to Han that she believes their son is not gone forever and that she wants him back.

    I'm ready to wager that Leia doesn't want Ben back so that they lock him up or execute him, but instead she thinks he is still salvageable and still loves him. His dad, Han Solo, the sceptic, also apparently still loves their son and his last gesture alive was to lovingly stroke his son's face.

    I'm pretty sure that when Luke told his dad, the newly returned from the Dark Side, Anakin, that he will save him and take him with him, he didn't really intend to save him and then give him over to the authorities to be executed for his 20 years of villainy, surely. We can assume that what Luke would have done, and had in mind, if Anakin had survived, was to quietly go on their Jedi business and live a life of seclusion from worldly affairs, which by the look of things Luke did anyway even without dad to join him.
    Also we know that Leia and Luke purposely did not tell anybody except Han (Leia suspects Han may have not told Chewie and I'm not convinced Chewie knew he was shooting Han's son with his bowcaster, but that's another question for another time) that Vader was their father and I'm inclined to think that they are not really in the mind of telling everybody that Kylo is actually Ben. (And we know for a fact that very very few know that Kylo Ren is actually Leia's son Ben).
    The secret knowledge of that parentage when leaked, did indeed hurt Leia's prospects to become an almost-empress of the Galaxy, but in reality only really personally hurt one person - her son Ben whom they should have told that secret, as he doesn't seem to have taken it very well.

    So in-universe, yes the galaxy at large may not be able to accept (and have the wisdom to understand) that after his two decades of villainy Vader did come back and once again was the jedi hero Anakin - demonstrated at how badly they took the news and turned on Leia and her family, but the people who knew Anakin - Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda, apparently could have the wisdom and understanding to know that while his return to the Light doesn't erase his two decades of pure villainy and evil (and Vader was indeed evil), they can accept him back and smile at him and all that. (And no, it is not because he is dead).
    For me, the fact that Leia never really reconciled and accepted that Vader came back and became good Anakin again is something that they are giving her a chance to understand with what happened with her son. I'm sure that she will fiercely believe that her son can be saved and love and cherish him and that knowledge and belief will finally help her to accept that her father was saved too (something with which she at present still struggles to accept).

    Thus saving Ben Solo is extremely important, not just for his own sake, but for everybody who is close to him. It is important to his parents and it is important to Luke as well. Because saving him also means that saving Vader was not a fluke and an one-off aberration and that indeed there is coming back even when one is beyond return.
    (Not to mention that Kylo Ren as we found him in TFA is nearly not as far gone as Vader certainly was and his struggle with the Light is something we should not ignore.)

    As to how the galaxy feels about the Skywalkers? I don't think anybody should care how the myopic (muggle) galaxy feels - what is important is what the Force feels and most importantly, how the people who are nearest to him and know him feel. So if the Force decides that one more Skywalker boy is going to be redeemed, and be able to come back to the Light, and the people (who are our surrogates as an audience to this space fairytale), accept it, then that's what really counts. And if this time said Skywalker survives his redemption and is given the chance to be fully rehabilitated and accepted by the people nearest and dearest to him, I simply don't understand why he cannot have a happy ever after.

    Thus, a romance for him is absolutely possible, if Rey is not his sibling or cousin and if she starts to think she kinda likes him because of things she will yet see...(It's quite obvious that he already does).
    Padme seemed to like and fall in love with Anakin simply based on his hot looks and jedi awesomeness (due to incredible weakness of the script), so the only caveat with this ST, if they indeed have romance in mind, is that Rey likes Ben because he has other positive qualities beside being a gorgeous dark prince who can stop blaster bolts in the air.

    Don't underestimate the wisdom of children (and women) who can very much understand that in a space fairytale this is entirely possible, and no, the message will not be a corruptive one to the "weak" minds and hearts of children (and women), thank you very much.
     
    #103 Obi-Wan Solo, Nov 30, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  4. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    I have come to understand that the issue with not only a redeemed Ben/Ren but also with Reylo (which assumes a redeemed Ben/Ren) is imagination.

    Many people simply cannot imagine a way for Kylo Ren, with his past of hideous deeds, including killing his father, to turn around and come to the Light in any convincing way. They don't seem to have ever seen a movie or read a story or heard a tale in any setting or genre that has shown such a thing. They don't seem able to imagine that anyone ever could write or portray such a thing. Because they cannot imagine it, they can't conceive that anyone else could not only imagine it, but understand and accept it.
     
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  5. Lancebacca

    Lancebacca Rebelscum

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    Yeah I sort of get where you are coming from but I don't think your view will be shared by the filmmakers.

    I'm not underestimating women and children and I don't think it's about corruption or really even influencing children. It's more about confusion. Which is the word I used earlier. Even if it's not confusing per se at the very least it will lead to questions, which is fine of course. Star Wars has done that before. But I understand where you're coming from with that last comment. I set myself up to look like I'm a knight that needs to save all children from this type of thing. I don't actually mean it that way at all. I don't mean to be patronizing. Anyway, I just think that basically the Story Group won't get into anything with as much grey area as this for their feature films. This would be more something they could pursue in a Netflix or some sort of tv series.

    As far as Star Wars having done something that gets people asking questions, here's an example. At age 5 I saw ESB and I came out of it asking my mom something like "Do you think Darth Vader really is Luke's father"? It turns out that George Lucas knew people would have this question. Specifically he thought film goers might not believe Darth Vader because he's a bad guy so he had Luke go to Dagobah so it could be confirmed by a good guy. That little anecdote about Lucas' thought process is out there on the Internet (I'm fairly sure that's where I heard unless I heard it on tv), you can look it up, although I'm not sure if it's easy to find.

    I think the reason they chose for Rey to ignore any of Finn's flirting or advances, whatever you want to call it, is that they have in mind for her to not be with anyone romantically. She is to be a Jedi, after all. I mean, that's the running theory. They are likely bringing in a new love interest for Finn in VIII so they can have some sort of love story.

    I'd like to point out just how important the decision Lucas made regarding Vader's redemption. That Vader should die in the process. I think it's obvious that Lucas thought the redemption would work best that way. Arguably Lucas thinks that doing something heroic is not enough to be redeemed, that the character to be redeemed also needs to die in the act (I wonder if Lucas' thoughts on this are out there..). A redemption for Kylo where he would live is so much more complex. I do think they could do a very good redemption where Kylo dies. I think it could be made to be more heroic than Vader's death.

    And maybe just maybe the one way that "Reylo" could work is if they aren't really a couple or anything like that, but Kylo turns good long enough for Rey and Kylo to kiss, share a moment, whatever, before ultimately sacrificing himself for the cause. They may also write it so he gets to have time / a moment with Leia as Ben before the sacrifice. In any case a redeemed Kylo is not making it out of this trilogy alive, in my opinion.

    If the filmmakers wanted a redeemed Ben to live to roam the GFFA then they should have not made his actions so evil in The Force Awakens. There would be much less debate were that the case. If they do choose to do let him live they are making the Star Wars saga, one of the ultimate black and white, good against evil kind of stories, much more grey. They are fundamentally changing Star Wars. I'll basically be shocked if they decide to go the Reylo route, for those reasons. It's obviously not easy to do, if it were @Obi-Wan Solo wouldn't have needed to write a such a long post explaining how it could work. It's not simple. And I'll stand by the belief that's it's confusing to children.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 30, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 30, 2016 ---
    No.. I just have a hard time believing that filmmakers working for Disney will write such a thing. I think as long as the Reylo folks acknowledge his "hideous deeds" we are closer than you think at least as far as what is theoretically possible. But we need to deal in the world of Star Wars and they've never done anything remotely like Reylo. It's all been relatively black and white.
     
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  6. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    After reading @Moral Hazard's original post, carefully supported with many ideas directly from TFA, do you still think he is not dealing in the world of Star Wars?
    And if your answer is that he isn't, then that is what I mean by not being able to imagine it.

    I don't know what the writers have in store--Reylo may or may not happen, and I'm fine with that either way. But I've seen a lot of new twists in TFA--like Kylo Ren--that two years ago I wouldn't have thought were "Star Wars" either.
     
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  7. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    I rather appreciate your friendliness and polite attitude, and I see the points you are making, but I still disagree and will try to address several of the points you make...

    And there is that anecdote where ROTJ director was against Anakin becoming a Force ghost as he thought that a murderer as him doesn't deserve it and Lucas strongly disagreed. (I read this somewhere recently and I'm not sure how much is true).

    Nobody, repeat, nobody has said jedi cannot love. Examples: Luke loving his sister (platonically of course) and his father (we witnessed); Obi-Wan Kenobi (romantically) as evidenced in TCW with his love for Duchess Satine which was reciprocated and who knows maybe even, hm, consummated. (Since I believe that Rey may be a descendant (granddaughter) of Obi-Wan's).

    And I would like to point out that Vader acted as a villain for 3 movies and was only shown to hesitate in the very end (and had his pull to the light) and has done much more horrible acts than Kylo has, not to mention that he has been the main imperial enforcer for more than 20 years before his end, so seeing that he was not established to be very sympathetic it is reasonable to have his redemption end with his death. BUT, and that's very significant, GL did not do that as he made him a Force ghost, which surely is a big deal as in the in-universe lore he is practically made immortal and equal to the good guys Obi-Wan and Yoda (and Qui-Gon).
    We (the audience) also did not see him act in any other way but as a villain who killed people just becuase he thought were stupid or inept, and his only good deed while selfless was also deeply personal as he only did one good deed, preventing the emperor from murdering his son and in the process destroying the emperor (something we know he plotted all along those years for his own personal lust for power).
    But importantly, Vader was half-machine, half a man, there was not much that can be saved and have meaning to survive. Kylo is a young man who we must assume based on how his parents see him, was a good young man who was loved and cherished before he turned to the Dark Side. We already see him as having compassion and being pulled to the Light from the very start in this trilogy. My point is, he is set up as not have been evil all his life, to have been on the wrong side since relatively recently only and to still be conflicted and torn. he is also set up to look "like sort of a prince " (JJ TFA commentary), an attractive young man, which frankly would be very confusing for me as I don't see what exactly they are trying to say with that...Filmmakers usually have something in mind when they make someone to appear much more attractive than they have to be...But that is an aside. Still a valid one.

    I disagree. How is it going to be "much more complex"?

    OK. How about, Kylo dies and Ben survives?

    Let me ask you. Would you accept if Ben becomes a Force ghost (i.e. basically a Force saint)? And if yes, then why not accept him to instead stay alive??? Where is the ethical difference and difficulty, of accepting one thing and not the other, because I simply don't understand that reasoning of making an ethical distinction between the two outcomes. If one outcome is acceptable - i.e. the evil persona of Darth Vader dies and the true self of Anakin Skywalker comes back and becomes a Force ghost and thus is made equal in spiritual achievement to the good guys (Obi-Wan, Yoda and Qui-Gon) who have not murdered and been villains for more than 20 years, then why is it not acceptable that Kylo survives his sacrifice and lives to have a chance to atone for the evil he has done by helping restore the knowledge of the Force. He doesn't have to necessarily be a jedi, he can be sort of a Qui-Gon type of Ronin sort of jedi and go into exile. Nothing prevents that I should think.

    To me, if someone has done the impossible and turned away from the Dark (i.e. evil), has seen the error of his ways, has chosen to act nobly, heroically, compassionately and selflessly, he not only deserves to become a Force ghost in death, but surely also could be given a chance to live out the rest of his his days. I simply do not understand the reasoning that full redemption is only possible if one dies, because that's not how the Force works.

    I'm sorry, I cannot agree with your statement that they are fundamentally changing what Star Wars is. Seeing that all previous 6 films of the saga are about the fall and the redemption of Anakin Skywalker, Star Wars is different from being black and white because it clearly is not about an evil guy that begins evil and ends evil, but on the contrary, is a story that basically is about someone who was good, then turned really very bad and then became good again. So, no, setting up Han and Leia's son and Vader's grandson and Luke's nephew the way they did in TFA certainly is not sealing his fate, and if we are to use our SW logic which obviously was set up in the previous films, the outcome for him surely is redemption becuase that's what this space saga is about - a Skywalker can turn back to the Light if he makes the choice to. And they have two more films to sell that idea even better than they did in the OT.

    Han willingly sacrificed himself for his son and his sacrifice would be made meaningful only if his son is saved and also even more so if his son truly is alive and not gone (I'm doing a little play of words with Han and Ben's dialogue on Starkiller). And more importantly, what about Leia? Do the filmmakers really hate this character so much that they will kill off her adoptive parents, not allow her to reconcile with her birth father, not know her birth mother, destroy her home planet, kill off the love of her life and then also kill off her only child who she obviously loves and wants back?! I simply can't believe that they have such hostile attitude towards that poor woman!

    I cannot agree it's confusing. Nothing confusing about it. My favourite example is the George Lucas scripted Willow where Sorsha who was serving her evil mother and was a warrior on the wrong side (who by the way was hunting newborn babies to bring to her mother to kill) is shown to change her mind, fall in love with the (not so perfect himself) Madmartigan, join forces with the good guys and start fighting against her evil witch mother and have a happily ever after with Madmartigan. That movie is actually for even smaller children than Star Wars, so there is that. I have not heard anybody back then complaining how Sorsha cannot turn good and be loved and love. In fact, that movie was deemed rather good and loved.
    I simply do not see why not write a story where in the span of 3 films Ben Solo is shown to repent and regret his bad decisions and have a chance.

    I actually don't have to write long posts. Actually only this sentence should be enough: "Kylo Ren seems to have taken many bad decisions, but they aren’t necessarily bad decisions within the context of Star Wars, where they can lead to almost anything."

    Hm, let me see...

    Disney:
    Beauty and the Beast. (And apparently they still think that is a good story as they are making a live-action movie coming out next year)
    Lucasfilm:
    Willow. (As I already referenced above).

    Apparently they can write "such a thing".

    Not having done anything like Reylo is really not a serious argument since as noted it is not impossible in the Star Wars world.

    Oh and Padme went ahead and married Anakin even after his admission to having killed women and children. That was a real head scratcher isn't it? It may be a very bad script on GL's part (and a very badly executed and unconvincing romance overall), but nevertheless IT IS part of Star Wars canon, so hm, no, SW was never as black and white as you seem to think. And certainly there is precedent for grey as I also pointed out above with the whole Vader's redemption.
    Hopefully they will have a better romance this time around.

    I will not be hugely disappointed if there is no romance. All I want is a good character driven story and so far it looks like we are getting one. But I simply also do not see why not have a romance in it too. If done well, it could be epic.
     
    #107 Obi-Wan Solo, Nov 30, 2016
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  8. Lancebacca

    Lancebacca Rebelscum

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    I disagree with the interpretations made in the pro Reylo section (for instance). I think most of the reactions they have with each other are just human nature type things. For instance, she is not taken captive by a literal monster, which she fully understands when he takes his mask off, so she reacts accordingly. I think it could just as easily been interpreted that they have some other sort of connection. I have believed there is a connection there. I think it's a very strange way for them to set up a romance. I'd really call that into question and I'd say if that's the case they had some missteps.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 30, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 30, 2016 ---
    Thanks for the reply but I just don't care to respond to all this. Sorry to take your time. It's not a debate I really care to get into.. I just don't have the energy to. So I'll just say nice points made by you and leave it at that.

    There are some very nice folks on this forum and I'll have to count you among them even though we disagree. You rated my post up there Friendly, a truly kind gesture among Cantina patrons.
     
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  9. Obi-Wan Solo

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    No worries. You don't have to reply or to agree with me.

    Thanks! The friendly sentiment is mutual. :)

    willowmadmardiganfall1.gif
     
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  10. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Well, I'll give you full credit for at least considering the points. I myself really can't buy the hearts-in-the-eyes thing. :p
     
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    i have to add, evidence for Reylo or no, Kennedy has all but stated that she is on Ben's side throughout various interviews. she has always avoided calling him a villain/monster/evil and has instead emphasized that he is damaged, confused, and in need of guidance (at one point stating that he's purposely representative of the lost millennial, handed everything except a sense of direction). whether that means anything in the long run remains to be seen, but i'd say it's a strong indicator that the character is not beyond redemption--and if he isn't beyond redemption, he isn't beyond a happy ending (whatever that may entail).

    i find it hard to believe she would (through Lucasfilm) deliberately create a touchstone character only to send the message to a whole generation that their mistakes will forever dominate their destiny.

    Star Wars has always been about challenging that very assumption. I think it likely will continue to.
     
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  12. PrincessLeiaCB3

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    exactly.gif

    Beauty and the Beast is one of the best examples. Obviously a lot of people would justify the monstrous nature of The Beast by focusing on the spell that has made him become a beast on the first place.

    I see what you did there (muggles LOL).

    Please accept a bottle of the finest Alderaanian wine as a compliment for the beauty and truth of such statement.

    Exactly!! Star Wars is a story of hope.

    Even in the current Season of Rebels one of the long-time villains (Maul) admitted that he was looking for hope.
     
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  13. Winterstar

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    that quote is per jj from his commentary he thought it should be very obvious why he killed his father
     
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  14. Dark Cutie

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    Wait...there's a Reylo thread on this board??!!....and...the topic is NOT forbidden??!!...and...mods approve??!!

    I died and gone to heaven...this is happy news indeed:)
    Have i posted here before?

    I am all for Reylo...but do you guys feel Rey is not quite yet worthy of him?
    I think she needs to grow up a little. I like her much better in the end of TFA....a bit more of Maul Rey, please :)
     
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    "Approve" is stretching it... "Reluctantly tolerate" would be a more fitting descriptor.
     
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  16. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    With a bit of tact, maturity, and sensitivity, most divisive SW topics seem to be able to be discussed here. At least while the tone remains sensible and members stick to genuine movie critique, analysis of narrative techniques, and share while tolerating others' speculations!

    you mean obstacle course.jpg

    So far so good...

    minefield_3875326_GIFSoup.com.gif
     
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  17. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    That's because the mods here have the Force Unagi.

    200 (9).gif

    Especially @Pomojema, he has most of it. ;)

    And also, lots of self-deprecating witty humor. :D
     
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  18. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Well....I will take what I can get :D
    And I knew I liked Cantina for a reason. Its people. :)

    Soooo.....what do you guys think about the whole tree issue and its impact on female empowerment movement? :D :p
    (This was a joke. Plz don't ban me ;))
     
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  19. Admiral Petty

    Admiral Petty Force Sensitive

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    ReyLo, no thank you.

    [​IMG]

    #JustSayNoToReyLo
     
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  20. Starchaser

    Starchaser Guest

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    #IWillNot
    #CantTellMeWhatToDo
    #YouGotSomeNerve
    :mad::p;)
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2017 ---
    Now that's something no one said before. SHE not being worthy of HIM lol But I see what you mean. She, much like 99.9999.......% of the galaxy, hasn't won the right to judge him. She can't understand him OR his actions. Most people don't know what the force is, never mind what it's like to struggle with it your entire life. I agree she needs to gain experience with the force, and the dark side in particular, if she's going to connect mentally and emotionally with someone like him. Just like he needs to gain some common sense and....sanity in order to connect with anyone. Reylo could only work if both characters grow and evolve, not just Kylo Ren.
     
    #120 Starchaser, Jan 1, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2017
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