SPECULATION Rey's lineage and the end of the Skywalker saga?

Then why are you assuming the end of a TRILOGY = the end of the SAGA? RotJ was the end of a trilogy and yet.......

Citation needed for your "assumption" that that is what Lucas meant.

1) Lucas changed his mind many times. It's been 12, 9, 6, and 3 at different points. Are you aware that Splinter of the Minds Eye was originally the sequel to ANH, and he thought all he'd get to do is a series of smaller, more stand alone type films? 2) Even if there was a grand plan for 9 films.....its not up to Lucas anymore. Its up to Disney and Lucasfilm, he has nothing to do with either.

Yes I do, because you attribute motive and meaning to people with no reason or evidence to do so. Just look at this post - "when he was saying that VII, VIII and IX are the end of the trilogy, he was referring to the end of the Skywalker Saga, not IX being the end of the sequel trilogy." In your last post (the one before thisone) you didn't say "likely" once and you only said "I think" in reference to me, not Lucas or Kennedy or Disneys intention. You don't get to claim you mean "probably" when the vast majority of your language indicates certainty.

How do you know Disney didn't approve the Johnson thing before contracts were signed and the announcment was made?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2017 ---

Of course you can just not include them. As I pointed out, if Rey lives you have the same issue - by your logic Rey MUST be included. But she most likely won't be because its easy to leave her out. No different then leaving Thor out of Guardians of the Galaxy.

The "skywalkers" are behind all the actino - LMAO - never change who you are. you're way to funny.

As I said - this logic applies to Rey Smith as well - are you saying Rey MUST die to allow Johnson's movies to not include her?

Yoda could still lead people, he could train Luke better then Obi-wan etc... If you're going to be consistent you HAVE to maintain that Obi-wa should have contacted Yoda asap. Oh, discovering a Sith plot is a small event now?

We saw in thet railer how luke was basically scared of her, who cares what the origins are, and who cares what her las tname is. BY YOUR LOGIC if Rey lives there can be NO STORY post Episode IX in which the heroes don't call Rey for help.

 

Uh...

“Disney might be paying the bills, but Lucasfilm likely have carte blanche to do pretty much whatever they want in terms of content output (as if they didn’t before) after their success at the box office.

If Disney turns around to Kennedy or her successor after IX and says “we’d like another trilogy: X - XII”, then sure, Kennedy would be inclined to go along with it, but I think it’s worth mentioning that Disney completely trust Lucasfilm to continue branching out the universe and making them money, so X - XII likely won’t come about because of Disney’s input when one considers their current stance.”

 

you're right, I missed that.

However you follow it up with/mix in definitive statements "but I think it’s worth mentioning that Disney completely trust Lucasfilm" & "because of Disney’s input when one considers their current stance" - You're claiming that Disney DOES completely trust Lucasfilm and then using that definitive claim to make another one.

You're basically saying - this is most likely the situation so that won't happen - you're not really staying in the "this is only my opinion" arena, you're crossing over.

 

Is that why Rebels and Rogue One have been centred around the Empre that Vader helped create and both include him? Clearly, not that easy then.

Rebels is about some people fighting the Empire, an Empire that Vader helped create and remains a big player in it. That is what the Skywalker is up to during that period.

Rogue One is about the Death Star - the weapon of the Empire. Again, directly relating to the events caused by the Skywalker's and awaiting a resolution through their actions.

If Johnson doesn't want to include Rey then she'll have to be dead, yes. Otherwise, we'll be waiting for her to show up and save the day. It's the same reason why Kenobi had to die in ANH and Yoda in RotJ. The new hero has to walk the path alone - if Skywalker's or other big powerful heroes are around, it will be impossible for Johnson to not include them in his epic trilogy.

Does Yoda have some kind of phone hidden in his hut? When would Kenobi have contacted him? Would it have been safe? But anyway, you're talking here about why Kenobi didn't contact Yoda to help him at some point. That's very different to a trilogy of films where the galaxy is at stake and the most powerful being ever doesn't get involved in any way.

As I have pointed out numerous times, this isn't just about power - but history. It's about not clogging up a new trilogy with Skywalker rehashes nor diluting that which has come before. And if you're not going to do that (use their power or history) then what is the point in confusing things with the Skywalker family at all?

Personally, I have faith that RJ will create some new characters that Disney will want to use to bring SW to a new generation. If his trilogy works, they will likely want another one.

And I have no problem with Rey surviving and being part of a new trilogy at some point. It just won't have Skywalker's in it. Their story is DONE.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2017 ---

Says the guy that claims I am "100% wrong".

Ironic.

 

Which I’ll happily admit to doing; that’s my mistake, I should have been clearer in my messaging.

I’ll reword it: the way things are going with Star Wars at the box office, and considering how Rian Johnson has been brought back on board to spearhead another trilogy outside of the Skywalker Saga despite The Last Jedi not yet having the chance to prove itself a financial success, I think that one can assume that Disney trusts Lucasfilm to carry their vision for the GFFA forward.

 

And they've found someone with an imagination to create a new trilogy where a new set of characters can be created that a new generation will love as much as we loved the Skywalker's.

 

Then we're back to ANY movie set after Episode IX being influenced by the Skywalkers - they had key roles in establishing the Republic and Jedi. Again you have to open it up to such a ridiculous degree (fighting the Empire - Skywalker involvement) that is weakens your position to the point that crumbles.

The difference is Obi-wan (who died in ANH because he had nothing to do in the 3rd act by the way, not so Luke could stand on his own, originally hew as meant to survive and die where Yoda does) and Yoda in they had direct ties to the main character. If the main character doesn't even know Rey exists........ Does the same logic apply to Poe? If there is any kind of space battle, wouldn't the new heroes just call the best pilot in the galaxy?

First, who says the entire galaxy needs to be at stake in the new trilogy? Again just because you can only imagine those stakes doesn't mean thats what it has to be. Look at Tolkien for example - Children of Hurin and The Hobbit don't have the same kind of World Ending stakes LotR does, but they are still epic, compelling stories. Second, if Rey or anyone else from the ST don't know about whats going (cause how would they know) why would they be there? Again, why didn't Thor show up to stop Ronin in Guardians? Why didn't Ironman show to stop Hydra in Winter Soldier? Why doesn't Batman always call Superman in the end? Your refusal to accept that stories about less powerful characters can still be epic and compelling and don't always have to end with the more powerful character being called in is silly.

If there is no one who is part of the Skywalker family in the movie, they aren't clogging it up.

Who says the Skywalker story is done? Has Kennedy announced that anywhere? And why are you ok with the new heroes calling on uber powerful Rey Smith for help but not Rey Skywalker? You just seem to hate the family for some reason.

You are 100% wrong - there Star Wars universe is big enough to multiple stories, the new trilogy doesn't have to have galaxy ending stakes, you're drawn ridiculous lines "Rey can help if she isn't a Skywalker but if she is its terrible", and you're incapable of pointing out what thebenefit to Lucasfilm and Disney would be to limit their own ability to create more Skywalker centeric movies or books or comics if they want in the future without referring to these nonsense arguments which are easily knocked down.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017 ---

You apparently don't think so because you think if Rey Skywalker is over there, the characters over here can't stand on their own.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017 ---

The box office, in which the Skywalker movie made like double what the non-Skywalker one did? Just saying.......

And we don't know how much influence had/has on what happened at Lucasfilm so far. I don't think Disney micromanages them, but it'd also be silly to assume they have no idea and their opinion doesn't matter. Remember Disney is going to own this property a lot longer then Kennedy is going to be in charge of it, and if Kennedy give Disney their update on what they are doing (which we'd be silly not assume she has to do) and say "we are ending the Skywalker Saga definitively, the door will be closed, there will be no more Skywalker characters, movies, tv shows, books, comics etc...." do you really think Disney is going to say "Yep, we're good with that" or "how about you end it in such a way that we can go back to it at some point if we want too. We're going to force you go back to it if you don't want too right now, but we'd like the option the future".

What makes more sense?

 

Let me just say, man; reading your posts have been an absolute joy. You are so methodical and detail-oriented on your points it is amazing. And I apologize if I sound like I am buttering you up, but given how I had to deal with a rather odious member(who used many logical fallacies), I am happy there are people like you.


As for the Skywalkers and their future within Rian Johnson's trilogy, yes I do not want them to appear. The Skywalkers are more than a name: they are a legacy, one that have been that cornerstone which have actively shaped the galaxy. This showcased in the six movies with Anakin's fall and Luke's rise. And really, I'd hate for Rian Johnson to be handcuffed to that legacy.

Unless, of course, he wanted to do something like the Star Wars Legacy comic to which actively addressed the idea of the Skywalker name and its importance with Cade Skywalker. But given how RJ was mandated not to have Skywalkers and take part in a separate galaxy, I am more than done. Because, contrary to some, KOTOR is a testatement, along with Tales of the Jedi and Dawn, that Star Wars can work without the Skywalkers.

And in my view, can produce stories that are actually a lot better. KOTOR, in my view. So really, I want Rian Johnson to take inspiration from Legends in the sense of creating his own impact on the franchise. New races, cultures and ideas. Kind of like Star Trek did. Though, I will admit; I speak as a casual fan.

And heck, if the movies wanted some connection to the prior galaxy, why not have a character, a non-established one, come from that main galaxy into the new galaxy, Unknown Regions maybe. That would be an amazing way as the POV character is relatively a lot more relatable in the sense they represent us being in this new world.

As for whether or not the Skywalkers should end, I'm indifferent as in I will be fine with either or. But I can see the issue of the Skywalkers butting in. It is why my hope is that this new trilogy introduces someone like Nomi Sunrider, in the sense they are powerful Force sensitives who are just as storng and impactful as the Skywalkers.

 

The point is a very simple one:

Rian Johnson wants to create a new trilogy that isn't about the Skywalker's. A new, separate trilogy. Right?
This cannot be achieved in the Skywalker period because their power and history dictates that they will be involved.
Now, if Rian Johnson creates a trilogy about a gangster from one of the moons of Iago searching for a lost Moof, then sure, we shouldn't expect Skywalker's to be involved. But if the stakes are felt across the galaxy (and being a trilogy of films, they surely will be), this cannot be achieved without including living Skywalker's.
As we see with Rebels and Rogue One, the Skywalker's are heavily involved. Their presence is felt. And the greatest stakes within the galaxy still revolve around them and their actions.

Again, standalones about little off beat missions, fine. Epic trilogies - not fine. The Skywalker's will end up in the way.

The Skywalker Saga is so exciting because it is a galactic conflict based around this one family. That's what makes it so powerful. Do we really believe RJ is going to spend years developing some low key trilogy with little at stake? Will Disney invest in that? No. Of course they won't. I'd happily bet some cash on it.

Again, please stop using the Marvel Universe as an example. The films are essentially comedies and don't weigh up to Star Wars at all. It IS ridiculous that all the heroes exist in the same universe and don't help each other out. Or when they do, it's only because Ruffalo has a gap in his schedule and Downey Jr isn't given a sh*t load of cash to say a few gags on screen.

The Star Wars galaxy is large but in terms of the Saga films it is also small. What I mean by that is that the central story - galactic civil war and bringing balance involves the whole galaxy. It's why Snoke needs a compelling backstory rather than just being some outside from the UR. And the other point is that if the Skywalker's aren't dead then the audience will always be waiting for them to show up. They'll loom large over every Star Wars film to come.

But if they are alive then they have to be involved.

It's my opinion.
If you don't get why Rey Smith is ok to carry on but Rey Skywalker isn't then you haven't listened to or get my argument at all.
I have been very clear:

Rey Smith provides a means to move away from the Skywalker family stories being repeated.
Rey Skywalker means they will continue to be told over and over. If you're a Skywalker then your story is dictated by your power and family history.

Your argument thus far has been: "What about Rebels?!"
Hilarious, a series about a group of characters that are fighting against Vader's Empire and that includes the Dark Lord himself.
I have stated the benefit numerous times. You're either being wilfully ignorant or are lying.

So why is RJ making a Skywalker-less trilogy then?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2017 ---

I appreciate your kind words! Glad I'm making some sense to someone!
And you're spot on - the popularity of Kotor and other Star Wars stories that don't include the Skywalker's is evidence that it is the GFFA that appeals more than anything - not just this one family, as wonderful and epic as their story is.

I think the most important point you make though is about RJ and him not being tied down to the Skywalker legacy. Any director/writer worth their salt will want to be unrestricted in where they go - especially when dealing with a beast of a universe like the Star Wars one. Killing off the Skywalker family frees RJ up completely to create whatever he wants. At the same time it will preserve Lucas' stories without the risk of ever diluting them or indeed ruining the legacy.

Edit: Whoever voted your post trolling is a moron and should be reprimanded by the mods.

 

No, the Skywalkers existing doesn't DICTATE that must be involved. As I've pointed out, using your logic Rey would have been involved no matter what her last name is, and we know this won't be the case. And no, Rogue One and Rebels are not about the Skywalkers, the Empire being the villains doesn't make them about the Skywalker family- again using this logic if there is a Jedi in Rians trilogy and it takes place after EIX, that means the Skywalkers are "involved".

If they don't write a Skywalker character into the script, then they aren't involved. Its really that simple.

Just because you believe 1) An epic story must be able the fate of the galaxy (so yu really don't want anything new or original) and 2) Therefore the Skywalkers MUST be involved doesn't mean either of those thing are true. Nor doe sthis logic hold up, because even if the Skywalkers are all killed off characters like Rey and Poe would HAVE to involved, and it would seem thats not the case.

You can like or dislike the Marvel and DC movies all you want - but they aer EVIDENCE that epic stoires with world ending stakes can be told about individual characters without other characters in the same world. You refusing to accept this point is just you denying reality. Why is it Cap can fight Hydra without Ironman, and the Guardians Ronin without Thor, Batman the Joker without Superman, Obi-wan can go to lead the Rebellion without Yoda, Qui-Gon can fight the Federation without Mace etc..... but these new characters will have NO CHOICE but to call Rey Skywalker for help (which is bad, but her last name is Smith is ok........)?

But Rey Smith is just as powerful as Rey Skywalker - so why woulnd;'t the heroes reach out to her for help? After all the entire galaxy is at stake!!!!!

LMAO - you mean correctly pointing out that Rebels is telling an epic story with galactic stakes in which the heroes don't reach out to a Skywalker for help (your big problem) = me lying or being ignorant. LMAO. Sure, I'll admit I'm both if you can tell me the episode in which Kanan and co. need help and need to reach out to a Skywalker for help because they are the only people powerful enough to help.

To expand the Star Wars Universe/Brand. You're the one saying that can't happen if there is a Skywalker left alive after Episode IX - so why don't you think Johnson can create a good story and great characters that people will like and will need to lean on said existing Skywalker?

 

No problem, man. And thank you for the support. I have a feeling who might have voted my post as trolling. And really, I don't bother as if it is the same guy(who I happily blocked), then I just laugh at how salty they are rather than humbling up. But yeah; your point on directors/writers want to prove their merit and be unbound is very valid.

Just look at Gareth Edwards quote during Celebration 2016 where if one is too respectful to a franchise and aren't bringing anything new, then you are doing that franchise a disservice. I am paraphrasing here, but really Edwards was commenting on wanting to put his own style and into the SWs mythos. And really, this new trilogy allows RJ a carte blanche in that it allows him to do just that.

And really, as you said; it allows those who want to appreciate GL's original works to appreciate them. And that has me very excited going forward. In fact, a part of me thinks that this news should have come later as it distracts from TLJ. But hey, I'm just happy going forward. Because I want something so radically different going forward. Like maybe, new aliens, new societies, and cultures. Or heck, maybe a different spin on Jedi Knights.

Maybe, they protect a kingdom in space and are more like Knights from Arthurian legend?

I don't know, I just really want to see this new trilogy now. Because, it is LF saying, "Let's futureproof this brand and not put it into a rut".


P.S: I know this is off topic, but I like both SWs and the MCU equally in that they are two different things. And really, I see them as being non-comparable in that MCU is superheroes and really SWs is more akin to modern mythology and a space opera, like Flash Gordon if anything.

 

Again, one final time:
I'm not just basing this on "power" but the Skywalker legacy/family history. But like I say, if Rey is supremely powerful and she is alive around the time RJ makes his trilogy - then yes, serious questions would have to be asked if she isn't involved in some way. And if she is involved, she'd likely play a big role.

The point is that this would be the same for the Skywalker's. Their power dictates they will be involved in galactic affairs. And in regards to their story, it will be dominated by their history. And if it isn't dominated by that, then they may as well be someone new that doesn't dilute the Skywalker Saga or potentially ruin it. What's more, it frees the writer up from having to deal with these issues as well as what would be the expectations of the audience for the Skywalker's to be involved somehow.

The point I am making is that, even within these smaller stories, the Skywalker's are involved. At the very least they are discussed. And Rebels and Rogue One explain what they're up to - and show that they are explicitly involved in galactic affairs. So let's say RJ creates a trilogy within the Skywalker lifetime - he will have to explain where they are and what they are doing even if they aren't directly involved in central story. Though like I say, a trilogy demands to be epic and it cannot be epic if it doesn't involve the whole galaxy. And when the whole galaxy is at stake and Skywalker's are around...

It's not.

What would you make a trilogy about?
If it is in Rey or perhaps Poe's lifetime, then yes, I will question where they are. I said the same about Rogue One before it came out - "they can't just have Jyn off in the galaxy somewhere, I wonder what happened to her...oh they killed her off..."

You're using bad film as an examples to make your point. They're silly movies. I'm constantly watching these films wondering where the other characters are.

We don't know that. And see above.

You mean the series based upon fighting Vader's Empire and Vader himself? The one where Leia turns up and fights with them? The one where Ezra meets Kenobi, who is watching over Luke. LMAO indeed.

Answering my question with a question again? Sheesh. I'll try again: Why is Rian Johnson not making a Skywalker saga trilogy? Ask yourself at least.
I think RJ can and will create that. If Skywalker's are around they will hang over the story and dictate events.

It's a little bit like why Luke was left out of TFA. He'd dominate all of Rey's scenes and we wouldn't have a chance to see her as the new hero.
Likewise, Skywalker's knocking about would dominate a future trilogy. Best to get rid of them and allow new characters to arise and new trilogies be made.

Vader's family have done their job. Time to move on.

 

You seem to jump back and forth bewteent wo issues. The first, the in-universe one.

You seem to believe any story MUST include the Skywalkers because they are strong. That the new heroes will have to call them for help. But we know this isn't the case. They've never done this in Rebels. They don't do it in Rogue One. Its unlikely it will happen in Solo. The Star Wars comic has storylines were heroes other then Luke accomplish things. We've seen in other media/brands stories told where the heroes more powerful allies/friends (and who says the heroes in this new trilogy even KNOW the Skywalker characters?) aren't called in. The assumption that Rey Skywalker would HAVE to be called in is simply false.

And if we go by your false logic, then characters like Rey and Poe MUST be in this new trilogy if its set after Episode IX - even if neither of them has the Skywalker name, the concept would still apply - and all indicatinos are that they won't be involved. If you can accept that these new characters won't call Poe Dameron or Rey Smith for help, you can accept that they wouldn't hae to call them if their last name was different. Or are you now saying all the heroes of the ST must die for the future of the franchise? Poe, Rey, Kylo, Finn - any future story MUST include new characters calling them for help (cause of course the new heroes will know them personally and be able to do that) so they must be removed, right?

Second would be the "nature of Star Wars" argument.

Yes, they expanding the brand. Moving away from Skywalker Saga and doing something else (again, assuming the two trilogies won't be in production concurrently). I haven't seen a single complain about this. But given that the above point isn't valid, that Rey Skywalker can exist WHILE an epic story is being told without her (no different then Rey Smith and/or Poe Dameron, that Yoda can exist while Obi-wan was doing things or the Marvel/Dc examples etc...) there is simply no benefit to Disney to definitively end the Skywalker Saga. Why wouldn't they want to keep that option open for themselves to return too?

 

@master_shaitan - If you cannot tell stories with galaxy wide implications in a universe with Skywalkers running around without the main heroes running to those all powerful, force using/Jedi Skywalkers to solve their problems/fight their battles for them, please explain

 

he's gonna say Leia sent him ergo Skywalker involvement, not to mention the fact that Kylo is the baddy leading the FO. not the best argument...

i do agree that it is patently ridiculous to assume that if a Skywalker is around they must automatically dominate the story. i feel like your comic book references are all pretty close to the mark; no one cares about those omissions, they still go see the movie.

if comic references are too silly/not "epic" enough for some, all one has to do is look to LotR: throughout The Silmarillion characters are in and out of epic stories while god-like characters who could fix whatever issue are no where to be seen. this doesn't diminish the story in any way and in fact heightens the intensity and the stakes for the central characters.

 

I fixed it.

 

Explain what?

 

Poe is constantly dealing with galaxy threating issues/enemies (the First Order) and yet he isn't calling Luke at the end of each issue to come save him/beat the first order for him.

But according to you........... he HAS to

 

Poe is actively searching for Luke in these comics...

 

sometimes- but its been pointed out that these new heroes might not know the current skywalker during their story, that doesn't seem to matter so it shouldn't matter here.