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SPECULATION Rey's Not Getting Trained at the Beginning of VIII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by RuccusRob, Dec 28, 2015.

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  1. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    This is the key. We can't be sure about most things.
     
    #61 odmichael, Dec 30, 2015
  2. OKP23

    OKP23 Clone Commander

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    I feel like Rey doesn't want to be trained... She said herself that she didn't want to touch the lightsaber again. I think the lightsaber came to her through the will of the force. She had no other choice other than to fight off Kylo Ren. I believe in VIII Luke will be the one who begs to train her, but Rey will refuse. She's only there to give his lightsaber back and persuade him to help the resistance. I'm sure Rey will be a badass Jedi by IX, she just won't train a lot in VIII.
     
    #62 OKP23, Dec 30, 2015
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  3. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    1.Wrong on both counts.

    It's not that people don't know who Luke is. It's that 30 years have passed and he's a different man. It makes no sense for him to open training a stranger(as far as we know) when we have no idea where his head's been at for three decades. Actually, the idea that he's going to start training Rey before he even SPEAKS is laughable. we have no idea who this Luke is, and what he's about. And in a movie that suppose to hold up on its own, you can't be left to assume anything about a character this important. It isn't slowing down the story for him to RESOLVE 15 YEARS WORTH OF ISSUES within the confines of the plot.


    Secondly the story doesn't hinge on Rey's training. That doesn't even mean anything to us yet. We have no idea of the scope of the threat, or if "training" a single Jedi is even a viable solution. We DO know that Luke left because of internal conflict caused by something we can interpret as a mistake. And Luke's future is crucial to the next generation. Glossing over his backstory and his importance just so Rey can do some force handstands in front of the camera is silly. And the great irony in you trying to make this about "what I want" is I WANT the story to make sense. I WANT things to play out rationally and for them to make good use of JJ's set up. I WANT the baton to be passed on right. Skipping Luke's development for a Rocky montage(or their results) is probably the most shallow bit of storytelling I can imagine, and I do imagine that it will only appeal to a small subset of fans. But not to people wanting a good narrative.

    Can we at least hear from Luke's mouth why he left before he starts teaching people how to explode heads with the force?

    -----------

    2.This is not what Snoke says.

    Snoke says that he wants to stop the Resistance from finding Luke because he doesn't want the NEW JEDI to rise, as in plural. Snoke isn't scared of one person. He's scared of an institution. That institution has a fulcrum in the Last Jedi. Watch the first scene if you need more evidence. Lor San Tekka explains it well.

    They sent Rey because the best person to convince Luke to return is probably the best person to be his first student, and the person who, in part, retrieved his coordinates.

    So yes, the fate of the Galaxy lies on Luke. That's why they were looking for HIM. It's up to him to finish what he started, and when he does, craps going to be on and popping. But until then we cannot rush it.
    ------------------
    3.No I'm not. I'm basing it on what the story tells us. There's nothing in the story that suggests Rey is going to be trained at the top of VIII unless you count head canon from 2013. But there are SEVERAL characters that tell us why Luke dropped out. Why he needs to come back. Everything I say flows from that, assuming that Rian Johnson is a good writer.
    -----------------
    4.There are other characters, and most actually aren't on Jedi planet. Two of them are as important as Rey and Luke.
     
    #63 RuccusRob, Dec 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
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  4. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    Yeah...we don't know do we?

    And all you're doing is assuming he ran off from the academy because he freaked out because two characters said he did.

    Again, you're assuming Luke left from internal conflict. We cannot assume why he left until we hear it from him.

    Also, the story DOES hinge on Rey's training because Rey is the protagonist of the movie, NOT LUKE. If you did not pick up on that from TFA, then there is really no speaking to you after this post. I'm wasting my time.

    This is exactly my point! We don't know for certain why he disappeared. Therefore, I don't think we have enough evidence right now to claim Luke will be extremely reluctant to train Rey. All we have are the words of his closest friends and I'm not even sure they heard where Luke went first-hand.

    -----------
    I agree with this. However, Luke is not the main protagonist and while the story relies on him, it is not his story. His job is to pass his information on to others including our main protagonist.
    ------------------
    Again, let's not assume.
    -----------------
    Which is why my mind tells me Luke won't be waiting to train Rey for a long time. She will need to help her friends. I don't know if Luke can or will help Rey's friends directly (I hope he does though!).
     
    #64 odmichael, Dec 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  5. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG]
     
    #65 Cole, Dec 30, 2015
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  6. RuccusRob

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    All I'm getting from this is "we don't know." Which amounts to another reason for Luke NOT TO DO ANYTHING until we do.

    At any rate, I much rather take his friend's and sister's information, the information from Snoke, and Lor San Tekka, and the guidance of Maz, to heart than consult head canon for "what we don't know."

    "Also, the story DOES hinge on Rey's training because Rey is the protagonist of the movie, NOT LUKE. If you did not pick up on that from TFA, then there is really no speaking to you after this post. I'm wasting my time."

    You seem to confuse "training" with story importance. I don't. We don't know what just "training Rey" means for this Galaxy, and as I said before, whether or not training a single person IS ENOUGH to remedy the troubles caused by the FO. In fact, most indications point to that not being the case. We do know that getting Luke to come back, something the STORY ITSELF tells us he's reluctant to do, is probably a much greater thing for Rey do as the main antagonist is explicitly afraid of IT. Once again, Snoke fears an institution, not a single Jedi. There are 8 force using enemies in a story that doesn't seem to have a redemptive arc. Just watching Rey train, no matter how much of a protagonist she is, isn't as important as Luke coming back to train multiple Jedi. It's all explained in the story within the first five minutes. None of this excludes Rey as the "main character" as Rey is the one doing the work of recruiting him.

    And this is something you can learn from watching Creed, or Rocky 1: The conflict and personal relationships make the story. Not the "main character" doing "cool stuff." All that has to be earned within the story, and the ST is a little more complicated and involved than Rocky:

    Rey's importance in the story seems to have more to do with what happens to the future of the Jedi than it does her just learning Jedi magic tricks, if we must take Maz seriously. She pretty much tells Rey that "Luke can still come back and your place is with him," not "You have to learn how to be a jedi, it's our only hope. "

    It doesn't matter who the main character is, Luke is still pivotal to the future of the story right now, being the best hope for a new generation. And considering the story importance they gave to HAN, I think it's fair to say they'll give a little more to him.

    If we must make assumptions, I rather make assumptions that make sense from the setup.
     
    #66 RuccusRob, Dec 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
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  7. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    Agreed. We should hear what Luke has to say before anything happens. I think this indicates that the movie takes place not long after the events of TFA and I think we can both agree on this.

    Tough to say. Only Han mentions why Luke might have left.
    Ever since Luke disappeared
    people been looking for him.
    Why did he leave?
    He was training
    a new generation of Jedi.
    One boy, an apprentice,
    turned against him, destroyed it all.
    Luke felt responsible.
    He just walked away from everything.
    Do you know what happened to him?
    A lot of rumors. Stories.
    People who knew him best,
    think he went looking for
    the first Jedi Temple.


    Luke has no Jedi to come back and train except for Rey - at least that we know of. We will have to see. But I don't understand why you think Luke's going to come back and train multiple Jedi. The whole point of that flashback is that they were all killed. It'll take years for Luke to restablish the jedi order - time the Resistance does not have.

    I agree. The characters make the story. I'm just not convinced that Luke left his friends because he felt responsible for damage caused. We shall see.

    Maz explains Luke is her Destiny. She does not specify what that destiny with Luke is.

    These are your first steps.
    What was that?
    I shouldn't have gone in there.
    That lightsaber was Luke's.
    And his father's before him.
    And now, he calls to you.
    I have to go back to Jakku.
    Han told me.
    Dear child, I see your eyes.
    You already know the truth.
    Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku.
    They're never coming back.
    But there is someone
    who still could.
    Luke.
    The belonging you seek
    is not behind you
    it is ahead.
    I am no Jedi, but I know the Force.
    It moves through and
    surrounds every living thing.
    Close your eyes.
    Feel it.
    The light...
    It's always been there.
    It will guide you.
    The saber. Take it.

    It's open to interpretation and I don't find this dialogue to indicate that her destiny is to find Luke Skywalker. Her destiny lies with the lightsaber and the force.

    Oh he will get more time. But I'm not convinced this is Luke's story and that this movie will be about the development of his character. That will only be a piece of this movie. Not the main piece though.:D
     
    #67 odmichael, Dec 30, 2015
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  8. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    1. I think we can trust Han because that's the only reason why I think it would make any sense for Luke to go away and leave only cryptic clues to his location. Plus Han's the father of the traitor. Questioning whether he is accurate is the definition of splitting hairs.

    2.That's what this story is about. I keep repeating myself, but we know from more than one character that Luke is needed to bring balance to the force by recreating a Jedi presence in the Galaxy. In the backstory he created an Academy because he was trying to make a New Jedi Order. He failed. In the current story Snoke wants Luke out of the picture because he doesn't want him to make a new generation of Jedi. Lor San Tekka wants him found because there is a power vacuum where the Jedi used to be. Leia wants him found because the First Order is growing in the absence of the Jedi. It's all there.

    This story is going to happen over the course of years, and the Force seems to be taking far more an active role than in prior trilogies. And there's, and this IS MY OWN speculation, no coincidence that Rey and Finn were connected early in the story. I think he's going to be a second apprentice, maybe trained by Luke, or even Rey, depending on what happens to him in VIII. So don't misunderstand. This is about the BEGINNINGS of a New Jedi order. And in order to begin, the teacher needs studentS.

    And even if you just look at what threats we have, without knowing much about them, one Jedi apprentice is severely outgunned. With at least two you can fight on three fronts if Luke joins in.I honestly think this story is about Luke making apprentices that are strong enough to resist the Dark and follow through on his dream of creating a Jedi Order, but that's far beyond what we know as of yet. In other words, he's the "Darth Vader" and his redemption is in making pupils that make up for the failure of another.

    3. Convinced or no, it's what Han said. And Han is a straight shooter when it comes to telling things the way they are. No reason to NOT believe him.

    4. Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku.
    They're never coming back.
    But there is someone who still could.
    Luke.
    The belonging you seek
    is not behind you
    it is ahead.    ​

    Can't get any clearer than this.

    5. I don't understand why things have to be "Luke's story" in order for Luke to be pivotal. This is all pretty much established. Not only that but he's the wellspring from which the Jedi flow at this point. No other character has that position. Not Rey, not Finn, not Leia. "Activating" him should be a big deal in the narrative because it was presented as a big problem/solution in TFA. But that doesn't mean it's all about him.(Was the OT all about Vader, or the relationship between Vader and his Son?) Because after he makes new Jedi, they're the ones who are going to have to fight this generation's fight and carry on the legacy. There's an entire movie after 8 afterall.
     
    #68 RuccusRob, Dec 30, 2015
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  9. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    We're going in circles. I'm done.
     
    #69 odmichael, Dec 30, 2015
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  10. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    If you thought I was going to deviate from what the film put in front of us, then maybe this is the wise course of action.
     
    #70 RuccusRob, Dec 30, 2015
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  11. Darth Nole

    Darth Nole Rebel General

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    This trilogy is not in any way about the founding of a new Jedi Order, it is about identifying Luke Skywalker, and the legacy of the Skywalkers. If this saga was about reestablishing a new Jedi Order, then it would stand to reason, that if the Force was going to awaken in someone, then that someone would experience an awakening in Episode Seven, which is conveniently titled, The Force Awakens. RuccusRob I understand that you want to see Finn as a Jedi. I understand why you want to see Finn as a Jedi. I do not understand how you refuse to see that, unless his character undergoes a massive overhaul, that he is not going to be a Jedi. The problem with your thesis of the next episode, is that you are eisegeting from The Force Awakens plot points that are simply not there. I do not understand what you expect from Episode 8, other than answering who is Luke Skywalker, and possibly seeing Finn as Force sensitive and trained. I believe the answer to the question of who Luke is, will be answered through Episode 9, by first finding out who Snoke is. I believe it will be through Snoke how we will find out the good, the bad, and the ugly on the Son of Skywalker. Rey, will be his apprentice, and she will be forced to choose, between the truth of good yet broken and grey Jedi in Luke, and the lies of a murderous and traitorous Plagueis. I am sorry my friend, but I do not see any inclination in the plot whatsoever to indicate that anyone else will be Force sensitive, not even my beloved Knights of Ren. Believe me, I so wish that there would be a battle between Light and Dark, with blue and green lightsabers flashing against a horde of red. I just don't see that happening in this trilogy. Maybe we will see a KOTOR trilogy one day. Maybe.
     
    #71 Darth Nole, Dec 31, 2015
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  12. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    Paragraphs, please.

    Anyway, I'll believe what you got to say the moment Snoke stops being occupied with Luke training a new generation of Jedi, or the moment Luke's ambition to find a new Jedi order is stricken from his backstory, or the moment that the question of "Who is Luke Skywalker" becomes mutually exclusive from Luke ever having any interest in growing the Jedi religion. Or when Lor San Tekka takes back his words about the Jedi needing to be in the Galaxy to bring balance to the force. Or the moment you remove the name "Plagueis" from an argument you want me to take seriously while simultaneously implicitly accusing me wishful thinking.

    When these things happen, we can agree.
     
    #72 RuccusRob, Dec 31, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
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  13. Frye

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    Hey guys. I'm a long time lurker n what not but seeing these last few posts compelled me too comment and I agree with RuccusRob. TFA seems to (really the entire Saga imo) imply that the overall problem of the Empire and the Dark Side can not be solved or at the very least dampened without a new Jedi Order. If that weren't the case there would have been no big push from Obi-wan and Yoda for Luke to become one and learn not just the ways of the force but the ways of the Jedi too. I don't have the exact words but like RuccusRob said Snoke himself is fearful of new Jedi emerging and tasked Kylo Ren with finding Luke to stomp them out for good. If the story is not about the Jedi coming back then Snoke should've only aimed for Luke and left Ben and the other students alone. He knows that the only way for him to rule the galaxy is to make sure the Jedi don't come back which is made evident by the fact that he targeted Ben and Luke's other students. Palpatine knew the Jedi were the only thing between him and his Empire so he made sure to get rid of them. That's why even someone new to Star Wars could watch the saga and come away saying "Damn. That Palpatine guy wouldn't have taken over if the Jedi survived." or "It sure would've been a lot easier for Luke to beat Palpatine and Vader if he had help from other Jedi." and not be wrong. If the story weren't about a new Jedi order being established then I don't think Luke would have been gathering students after the events of Episode VI and Snoke wouldn't have come along and done the same thing to the Jedi that Palpatine did. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two major bad guys made sure to eliminate the Jedi before taking over. If you take all this into consideration then it is safe to assume that only a new group of Jedi can quell the evil that threatens and will threaten the galaxy.

    TL;DR: Yes the story is about Luke Skywalker and the Skywalker legacy but think for a moment that his legacy may be to bring back the Jedi and restore peace/order to the galaxy.
     
    #73 Frye, Jan 11, 2016
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  14. Theresa

    Theresa Rebel Trooper

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    I believe Luke does not initially wants to train Rey. He feels so much guilt from his last attempt he feels he should not. He will try to give all sorts of reasons why he should not. In this case it would kind of follow Rocky's path in Creed. I do think he will toss her a holocron that he found in the 1st temple. I suspect he will argue with Obi Wan and Yoda over his decision. Finally, he will relent.
     
    #74 Theresa, Jan 17, 2016
  15. Darth Lindb

    Darth Lindb Rebel General

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    I think she will defnitely be trained by Luke on ACht-to. But I really don't want a training montage in Star Wars so I hope episode 8 skips a couple years where she was already trained by Luke. Simarly to when Luke comes back in ROTJ and whoops butt.
     
    #75 Darth Lindb, Jan 17, 2016
  16. Theresa

    Theresa Rebel Trooper

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    I do not see a large time break between end of episode 7 to beginning of episode 8.
     
    #76 Theresa, Jan 17, 2016
  17. Darth Lindb

    Darth Lindb Rebel General

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    I could. just because starkiller base is destroyed so they will need time to recover as well as Kylo Ren getting trained. On the other hand the New Republic is also destroyed so Leia will need to figure things out as well as Rey getting trained. Also Finn probably needs time to heal from near fatal injury. I would say at least half a year.
     
    #77 Darth Lindb, Jan 17, 2016
  18. OKP23

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    IMO, I think Rey doesn't want to be trained. She was pretty eager to hand the light saber to Luke. If she were to get any training, it would be how to handle her force powers. She already has the skills.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 17, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 17, 2016 ---
    I agree. There will have to be a gap, so that the FO can get their s**t together and Kylo Ren is fully trained etc. It wouldn't make sense if it started right after the end of TFA.
     
    #78 OKP23, Jan 17, 2016
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  19. Just Passing Through

    Just Passing Through Rebel General

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    I agree that there will be a time skip but I don't think the FO will have spent the time recovering from the destruction of Starkiller or that the New Republic is destroyed, dealt a heavy blow but not destroyed. To me it would make the most sense that the First Order would be taking advantage of the confusion in the NR and launching a blitzkrieg campaign with its hidden fleets. I also think Finn might be in a coma for a large amount of the time skip.
     
    #79 Just Passing Through, Jan 17, 2016
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  20. Rey24B

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    Rey's arc in TFA was similar to Luke's in ANH. That being "reluctant hero must embrace their destiny" which is a common one. Add in the whole "Rey must let go of her past in order to truly move forward" element ant there you go. And by the end of TFA, she's done that. THAT'S why she goes to Luke and that's why she's handing him the lightsaber. There's nothing to suggest a reluctance to be trained on her part by that point.

    Now Luke's POV is going to be interesting to see. Because we really don't know exactly why he left (Han's words seem more like speculation than hard fact to me), what he's ben doing (although I DO think that the whole "looking for the first Jed Temple" idea will end up being important), or what his current views are. Basically we're left with a number of intriguing questions that need answering.
     
    #80 Rey24B, Jan 17, 2016
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