1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Rian Johnson saved the Jedi from George Lucas

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Posts:
    743
    Likes Received:
    7,972
    Trophy Points:
    17,017
    Credits:
    5,820
    Ratings:
    +9,162 / 26 / -3
    A common complaint about The Last Jedi is that Rian Johnson subverts the Jedi and the Force.

    I disagree. I say Johnson saved the Jedi from George Lucas. Here's why.

    In the Original Trilogy, we view Jedi as legends. They are a flawless, intangible image of goodness. We rejoice when Luke follows this pat. We make toy lightsabers and pretend to be heroes. If you're like me, the idea of Luke's new Jedi academy sparked your childhood imagination like little else.

    Then the Prequel Trilogy arrived. As a kid, I only had mental categories for heroes and villains. Jedi = good, Sith = bad. But when I rewatched the Prequels as an adult, they shocked me. Lucas wasn't painting the Jedi as heroes. They measure the Force with science. They’re politically entangled. They're flawed, prideful, mistaken--and they lose.

    This changes the Original Trilogy. Luke's journey in the Force becomes less certain. We now know more than him. We know he's following the path of a deeply flawed order.

    Lucas didn't waste the opportunity to say something new with the prequels. He used the opportunity to show us the danger of placing too much trust in institutions, the danger of clinging to a legend and forgetting the reality behind it.

    This wasn't Johnson. This was Lucas. He subverted the Jedi and the Force.

    Which brings us to The Last Jedi. We shouldn't be surprised by Luke's disillusionment. He was seeking out the history of the Jedi, and we know the history of the Jedi: it's episodes I - III. When Luke tells Rey of the Jedi’s failings, he tells her about the rise of Sideous and the training of Vader.

    Luke's disillusionment with the Jedi hasn't just come out of nowhere. He’s simply a Luke who has seen the prequels.

    With this in mind, Rey's journey becomes our own. Like us, she knew the stories of the Original Trilogy and idolized the Jedi. Like us, she imagined the legends of Luke Skywalker. Like us, she instead discovered the Jedi of the prequels: broken, mistaken, and most of all, human. Not literally human (obviously many are aliens) but human in that they are actual individuals with flaws, not the idealized abstractions of legend.

    But Johnson, far from subverting the Jedi, rescues the Jedi from the subversion of the prequels. Yoda teaches Luke to learn from failure rather than forsake the whole Jedi way. Rey rescues the Jedi texts. Luke returns to the Force, claiming that the Jedi will rise again, and we see Rey as the first of a new order--an order not just built on the abstract legends, but on knowledge gained from the actual failures.

    Lastly, we see Broom Kid. I love this. Lucas showed us the danger of legends, dashing our heroic daydreams with the complicated reality. But Johnson shows us that legends have value. With Broom Kid and his friends reenacting the tales of Luke Skywalker, Johnson shows us that legends have power. They communicate truth in their own way, beyond mere factuality into the realm of the spiritual. They inspire. They point us toward the good.

    Far from ruining the Jedi, Rian Johnson rescued them. He didn't invent the idea of Jedi hubris. He took it from the prequels. Just as Luke and Rey choose to acknowledge and build from the failures of the Jedi, Johnson chooses to acknowledge and build from the difficult portrayal of the Jedi from the prequels. It would have been easier to ignore the difficulty, to cast the Jedi as idealized heroes once more—but then he wouldn't be following his own example. Instead, he answers the open question of the prequels: Yes, heroes and institutions are flawed, but we can learn. And legends still matter.

    If Johnson subverted anything, he subverted the cynicism of the Lucas prequels. The Jedi can be heroes again.
     
    • Like x 13
    • Great Post x 12
    • Wise x 4
    • Clouded x 3
    • Original x 2
    • Disagree x 2
    • Informative x 1
    • Funny x 1
    • Hopeful x 1
  2. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,107
    Likes Received:
    10,211
    Trophy Points:
    142,692
    Credits:
    15,446
    Ratings:
    +19,132 / 798 / -292
    The Jedi were designed that way in the PT by Lucas as part of the narrative.
    It sounds like Lucas planned to have Luke in his ST as we find him in the actual ST.
    And so I believe RJ continued Lucas' story from where it left off. And Lucas always said that when people see the bigger picture, they'll understand more some of the choices that were made.

    Of course, Lucas put his story above everything else - sometimes to the detriment of what might actually be more enjoyable to see play out. He believed in the story he was telling and thought it important. This was his modern fairy-tale for kids to learn their moral lessons from. And now the ST has continued this and makes even more sense out of the masterful PT narrative.

    The Supreme Leader is dead...long live the Supreme Leader!
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Wise Wise x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2017
    Posts:
    491
    Likes Received:
    2,284
    Trophy Points:
    8,067
    Credits:
    3,906
    Ratings:
    +2,855 / 19 / -11
    This headline is so "clickbait" lmao

    Interesting topic nonetheless ;)
     
    • Cute x 2
    • Disagree x 2
    • Like x 1
    • Funny x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    • Pessimistic x 1
  4. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Posts:
    743
    Likes Received:
    7,972
    Trophy Points:
    17,017
    Credits:
    5,820
    Ratings:
    +9,162 / 26 / -3
    Well I was going to go with "7 Reasons Rian Johnson saved the Jedi, and you won't believe number 5" but that just seemed like too much.
     
    • Funny Funny x 13
    • Cute Cute x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  5. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Posts:
    125
    Likes Received:
    250
    Trophy Points:
    832
    Credits:
    579
    Ratings:
    +367 / 2 / -1
    This is pretty perfect.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  6. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Posts:
    835
    Likes Received:
    1,018
    Trophy Points:
    5,892
    Credits:
    2,359
    Ratings:
    +1,737 / 57 / -10
    I'm not aware at all that there had been any necessity for Mr. Johnson to save the Jedi.

    Somebody already did that many, years ago - his name is Yoda and the film is The Empire Strikes Back. ;)
     
    • Like x 4
    • Great Post x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Cute x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  7. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Posts:
    743
    Likes Received:
    7,972
    Trophy Points:
    17,017
    Credits:
    5,820
    Ratings:
    +9,162 / 26 / -3
    You mean by training Luke? Not certain what exactly you refer to but I'd love to hear your idea!

    I think it's important to account for the order of the films. By putting the prequels second, Lucas leaves us a sour taste for the Jedi order. I think that, even if on a plot level, the Jedi return in the Original Trilogy, the Lucas-led films don't leave us in that place of hope. Before thI Disney era, the Star Wars project leaves us in a place disillusionment.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  8. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Posts:
    766
    Likes Received:
    1,498
    Trophy Points:
    6,317
    Credits:
    2,433
    Ratings:
    +2,628 / 14 / -0
    Yes!

    There's a reason why, as of Episode IV, there were no Jedi known to be about the galaxy, except for Ben and Yoda. Tarkin hinted at this directly in Vader's presence.

    People point to the Prequels, where this certainly was all spelled out in those films, but the original details about the Jedi purge (what we'd later refer to as "Order 66") and Emperor Palpatine rise was actually spelled out in 1976 in the Star Wars novelization:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope_(novel)

    https://www.google.com/search?q=star+wars+a+new+hope+novelization+prologue

    So the downfall of the Jedi was indeed designed as such, originally so, to relate the larger story Lucas had in mind.

    If anything Rian Johnson, as I see it, did what he was generally expected to do as a storyteller in this saga: he built upon the existing story, advanced the narrative, honored some of the core principles while working in some creative elements and themes.

    Nothing could save the Jedi but themselves, and most of them simply failed to do that.

    But that was one of Johnson's greatest points in TLJ, via Yoda, with failure being revealed to be such a great teacher.

    For the Jedi to have any chance to persist, even in simply the sense of having some legacy influence on Force-sensitives and future Force knowledge, current and future Force users must learn from the past.

    And here is where I feel Luke can be incredibly valuable to the Order's legacy, doing what they could not, as Qui-Gon before him, while also preparing a way for the next generation, and not only with Rey, as his enduring legend is shown to inspire potential Jedi beyond her.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  9. JarJar

    JarJar Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    VI restored the Jedis purity. RJ did Luke wrong.But I get the idea that Luke saw TPM and a certain Gungan and wanted to die.
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
    • Cute Cute x 1
  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I think a take away from GL's narrative throughout SW is that governing bodies and institutions suck. The Old Republic and the Jedi Order, which were both depicted as prosperous and mostly good, still had failings. Once something gets so big, it gets cumbersome and more and more things fall through the cracks or get ignored due to it being seen as a "small" issue in the grand scheme of things. Even if Jedi's have this awesome power at their beck and call, once formed into an order it is subject (and thus gets bogged down by) to rules and regulations, bureaucracy and responsibility... basically human concerns. So eventually the concerns of the Force takes second seat as the needs of the ordinary and mundane take precedence. It's a balancing act that mirrors the real world, and that we mostly fail at, but it beats the alternative (anarchy).
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,165
    Trophy Points:
    11,667
    Credits:
    6,943
    Ratings:
    +5,080 / 25 / -7
    That sounds like a story autocrats like Hux and Kylo probably tell themselves. It's useful for anarchy (literally “no ruler”) to be conflated with disorder by the rulers!

    On the other hand the anarchists - probably fighting alongside the Resistance - will have their own narrative about order. Likely one that doesn't confuse “no rulers” with “no rules!” ;)

    Great original post BTW @Jaxxon
    It seems like some of the controversial elements to TLJ were kinda inevitable.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  12. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    2,150
    Likes Received:
    3,968
    Trophy Points:
    13,687
    Credits:
    5,229
    Ratings:
    +6,111 / 170 / -36
    I agree with the premise that the PT Jedi were outdated and too establishment at that point and that essentially led to the Empire. The only thing that Disney/JJ/RJ screwed up with Luke is that he would saw this before he established the new Jedi Order. The thing I love about Luke Skywalker is that by the time of ROTJ he is always a step ahead of every character in the OT, for example he wanted to redeem his father while Ben/Yoda wanted him to kill his father. Heck, the audience wanted him to kill his father, so that was a great plot twist in 1983.

    After learning about his father and how everything went down with the Jedi in the PT, Luke would have not reestablished the Jedi Order the SAME way after ROTJ. He would have changed with the times, and that is why TLJ hits only a double for me, and not a homerun. I like the twist that Luke thinks the Jedi 'need to end', but it doesn't totally work for me because he only sees it 30 years after the fact. A good twist would have been that Luke NEVER established a Jedi Order, and Ben Solo trained with someone like Snoke, and turned to the darkside. That way Luke could have said, "I told you so, this is why I didn't establish a new Jedi Order, history keeps repeating itself!"
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Posts:
    835
    Likes Received:
    1,018
    Trophy Points:
    5,892
    Credits:
    2,359
    Ratings:
    +1,737 / 57 / -10
    Whatever sour taste Lucas left for the Jedi Order, it's fixed by Yoda after he had 20 years to examine and reflect the issue. I'm under the impression that a lot of folks have forgotten what he taught Luke in ESB (and for some strange reason Mr. Johnson had made Luke "unlearn" all of these when he entered his nephew's hut):

    YODA You will know. When you are calm,
    at peace.
    Passive. A Jedi uses
    the Force for knowledge and
    defense, never for attack.

    YODA Your weapons... you will not
    need them.


    YODA Difficult to see. Always in
    motion is the future.


    I would also agree that Obi-Wan in ROJ rather sounds like a Jedi of the old order with his "certain point of view" talk and firm belief that Luke has to kill Vader, while in contrast Yoda told Luke that he wasn't ready for the burden of the truth and only told Luke that he had to confront Vader again.

    In TLJ the Jedi teacher (!) Luke Skywalker seems to have forgotten Yoda's lessons and what ultimately happened on the second Death Star, where it was him attacking the Emperor and Vader but he finally realized that that was the wrong approach and that Yoda had been right all along.

    So I can't possibly see where Mr. Johnson saved the Jedi, Yoda had done that already, but apparently Mr. Johnson ignored Yoda's lessons in ESB and for some strange reason felt we all should "unlearn" just as Luke Skywalker supposedly did.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Posts:
    276
    Likes Received:
    410
    Trophy Points:
    2,357
    Credits:
    821
    Ratings:
    +694 / 22 / -11
    That is so hilarious but actually so true as well. To other people arguing that Luke should've never made a new Jedi Order I personally believe he would've set up the new order differently. His only mistake was not seeing the darkness in Ben and then his moment of weakness.

    As an aside, it's also interesting that the trilogy of trilogies is reflecting the way the rest of the individual trilogies work. Since the chronological order is OT PT ST, the OT was the original that we all fell in love with (similar to ANH and TFA), the PT is the step child that was shunned because it did something that didn't sit well with people at the time (the same way ESB and TLJ did), and the ST (hopefully) will tie everything back together and end the trilogy on a good note (as RotJ and arguably RotS did).

    Obviously I'm not saying the PT is the ESB of the saga but the analogy still stands.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,893
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,781
    Ratings:
    +7,936 / 410 / -137
    Story department defends by claiming sequel trilogy storyline is in many elements based after original Lucas sequel trilogy ideas.

    Now we acclaim that Rian saved us from Lucas.

    [​IMG]
     
    #15 McDiarmid, Jan 31, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  16. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    3,815
    Trophy Points:
    11,717
    Credits:
    3,921
    Ratings:
    +5,853 / 30 / -9
    I always took Luke’s rejection of Yoda’s and Obi-Wan’s perspective on Anakin being irredeemable as the first step separating him from the “old” ways. That he was going to challenge the concepts of the Jedi and forge his own path from there - reinvent the Jedi. I figured that was what Lucas was getting at. I guess we’re skipping that and having Rey do it? Meh, so be it.
    No. The takeaway is that the people that inhabit those institutions, not paying enough attention and being involved, is what sucks. Power can only corrupt if you let it. It’s complacency that dooms us all: failing to hold our leadership accountable, blindly doing what we’re told, standing by and expecting someone else to fix things for us. That’s what Lucas was/is afraid of. That’s what this allegory was supposed to teach us: question authority, question the status quo, and stand up for ourselves.
    I think you may have missed the OP’s point.
     
    • Wise Wise x 2
  17. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,012
    Likes Received:
    2,776
    Trophy Points:
    9,042
    Credits:
    3,582
    Ratings:
    +4,367 / 22 / -13
    Ehhh....I'd curb that spotlight cheering over Johnson in this regard a tad, as TLJ is basically - with quite a few face-lifts in redrafts, mind you - more along the lines of what Lucas had in mind and outlined for his idea for SW7.
    Disney just felt that jumping right into that deep well as the first film was a bit too much for newcomers and felt there was a need for a reintroduction film first before diving head-long into tearing apart the Jedi tangent again.

    Lucas didn't have more than some rough concept outlines (treatment...ish...doesn't sound like it was even really all the way to that level quite yet), but some key concepts were definitely there, such as the disillusioned old Jedi (Luke) who begrudgingly trains the new up-coming Jedi (Kira, I think, but the name was constantly changing).

    http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-george-lucas-idea/

    So as much as everyone keeps complaining about this tangent, and in your case, praising...the thing is, this was a tangent that Lucas was tugging on as a concept before he decided to sell to Disney.
    Disney just, in my opinion correctly, decided that you can't flat out ignore the audience and you kind of have to respect the fact a new generation may not exactly know all of the nuances and you kind of need to have a starter kick everything off first and move on to the dystopic Luke later and not cram Han, Leia, their son turning to the dark side, Han's son killing him, Luke being dystopic and a crusty hermit, etc... and everything all in SW7...that's a LOT to pack into one film.

    You can do that, but it requires that everyone watching is really versed on the nuances of Star Wars and has it all fresh in their minds.

    So...ehhhh....I'm not sure that Johnson exactly can take full claim of saving the Jedi from Lucas when Lucas was pretty much headed down the same path in a different style.
    Things would have been different, don't get me wrong. It's not like Lucas had everything down that Johnson wrote - not by a LONG shot.
    But the basic thoughts were definitely expressed, and some of those ideas, like all this stuff revolving around Luke's disillusionment and judgement of the Jedi, and Han's death were brought up as things to explore.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Cute Cute x 1
  18. Mike

    Mike Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Posts:
    288
    Likes Received:
    345
    Trophy Points:
    2,487
    Credits:
    839
    Ratings:
    +622 / 36 / -36
    No... RJ falls into the trap that quite a few "fans" have. That because the Jedi were betrayed and thus destroyed, that it must be their own fault. It's a flawed perception that doesn't take into account that the Jedi had no way of knowing what the audience knew. The Jedi had lasted thousands of years with their ways, were they flawed in some ways? yes, but only so because they were "human". They weren't perfect beings. They made mistakes, they were in fact imperfect. Each and every Jedi was trying to become a better person, a better Jedi. The Jedi being portrayed as perfect and flawless was never in the OT.

    No where, in not any interview, or commentary has Lucas ever said that the Jedi's teachings are what ended them, or were to blame for Anakin's turn. In fact, it is just the opposite. Lucas has stated that because Anakin doesn't listen to his Jedi training, because Anakin doesn't listen to Yoda, doesn't learn to let go, doesn't listen to the lessons about greed, etc etc, those are what lead to Anakin's turn. Not because the Jedi were outdated or flawed, or because their teachings were flawed.

    Lucas himself has stated that it was his turn to learn from the Jedi teachings of letting go when he decided to not only sell LFL to Disney, but, to ultimately step aside and not be a part of the movies moving forward.


    ummmm... have you watched the OT lately?

    "The Jedi were the guardians of Peace and Justice in the Old Republic"
    "Vader was a pupil of mine (ie a Jedi) until he turned to evil"
    "Anakin (who was a Jedi) was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force"
    "I thought I could teach him as well as master Yoda... I was wrong"
    "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights"

    Those paraphrased quotes are from the OT...

    So...
    attached to political bodies? found in the OT...
    Jedi that are flawed? found in the OT...
    Jedi that are prideful? found in the OT...
    Jedi that lose? Found in the OT...

    The simple fact of the matter is that no where in the OT is it said that the Jedi were perfect. That is a manifestation of your own doing. The fact is that Obi Wan shows he was arrogant, Obi Wan tells us that a Jedi could be seduced by the Dark Side. Yoda tells us that it's possible that Luke could turn to the Dark Side, like his Father. It's the OT that tells us that the Jedi ultimately lose as they were hunted down and destroyed.

    The Jedi were always going to be attached to a political system. They were the Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Old Republic, they weren't guardians of the Galaxy. They just didn't run around the Star Wars universe righting the wrongs as they saw fit.

    What the Preqiels do is flesh it out for us. As we come to find out, they were attached to the Senate, which was the voice of the people of the Republic. It makes sense that the Jedi were attached to the Senate, as ideally, they would be following the wishes of the People.

    If the Jedi are not attached to a democratic government, than they are no better than vigilantes. I much prefer the story that the Jedi were attached to the Senate, the voice of the people, rather than the Jedi being some group that runs around dispensing Justice on their own terms, their own morals, their own beliefs.

    The problem lies in that the politicians are what betrayed the Republic and the Jedi, the problem is not that the Jedi had faith in the Republic and it's people.

    The destruction of the Jedi Order was not because they allowed it, or because their ways were at fault. The fault lies in the corruption and greed of us, the people, that allowed greed, fear and corruption to makes it's way into our political institutions. This was taken advantage of by Palpatine, in much the same way that Hitler took advantage of the fear and anger of the German population.

    This is the major problem I have with TLJ. Luke has fallen into the trap of the blame game that so many fans have fallen into. That it was all the Jedi's fault, and that they were a flawed organization, and they must not come back. As if anything any fan has ever suggested would have saved the Jedi. They were doomed not because they were flawed, they were doomed because people are flawed, and that is why liberty dies with thunderous applause...



    Edit:

    GL: Anakin wants to be a Jedi, but he cannot let go of the people he loves in order to move forward in his life. The Jedi believe that you don't hold on to things, that you let things pass through you, and that if you can control your greed, you can resolve conflict not only in yourself but in the world around you because you accept the natural course of things. Anakin's inability to follow this basic guideline is at the core of his turn to the dark side.

    http://www.sci-fi-online.com/Interview/05-11-01_GeorgeLucas.htm
     
    #18 Mike, Feb 1, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    • Great Post Great Post x 5
    • Like Like x 4
  19. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Posts:
    743
    Likes Received:
    7,972
    Trophy Points:
    17,017
    Credits:
    5,820
    Ratings:
    +9,162 / 26 / -3
    Good thoughts. I would offer a couple counterpoints.

    First, I think it's important to judge the films based on what is actually presented, rather than what Lucas intended or claimed in interviews. I think the Jedi as a failed institution is a valid reading of the prequels even if Lucas intended otherwise. The Jedi have a clouded view of the force. They sent attachments to the point of indifference. They become war generals. They measure the force with science. They try to turn Anakin into a spy against Palpatine. It all leaves a sour taste to me, and many other viewers. Maybe it's not the only interpretation but I think it's an apparent one.

    Second, in regards to the Kenobi quotes and the idea that Jedi were flawed in the OT. The idea that a Jedi can fall, or that Jedi could be killed, is vastly different from the idea that the Jedi were flawed as an institution. I don't think anybody who watched the OT left thinking of the Jedi order as anything other than a paragon of virtue, something that should be brought back without hesitation.

    Third, in regard to your last point about problems with TLJ. I agree that Luke is playing the blame game. But I don't have a problem with this because that's not where the film leaves us. Through Yoda's guidance, Luke comes to the same conclusion you have: people are flawed. And the Jedi are just people. Failure is meant to be learned from, not to make us give up. From your comments, I get the sense that you think TLJ wants to end the Jedi order because of its flaws. But Luke says he won't be the last jedi. TLJ calls for the Jedi to come back, but a Jedi who are both human and legend--acknowledging the flaws of humanity but having the power of myth.

    So, a clarification: despite the tilting of this thread, I didn't intend to pit Lucas and Johnson against each other as people, I just wanted to put their creations in counterpoint. I love Lucas's work and I think he's a brilliant filmmaker. I think his willingness to offer a more complex vision of the Jedi in his prequels is a sign of his filmmaking skill, despite other problems I may have with the movies. Even if Lucas intended some of the things Johnson ended up doing, that doesn't really change the gist of my original post. I'm talking more about the actual films presented to us than the intents of individual creators. You could just as easily call this thread "TlJ saved the Jedi from ROTS." The director names are just convenient.
     
    #19 Jaxxon, Feb 1, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    • Like Like x 4
  20. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Well said.
     
    • Like Like x 3
Loading...

Share This Page