Rian Johnson saved the Jedi from George Lucas

The Jedi were designed that way in the PT by Lucas as part of the narrative.
It sounds like Lucas planned to have Luke in his ST as we find him in the actual ST.
And so I believe RJ continued Lucas' story from where it left off. And Lucas always said that when people see the bigger picture, they'll understand more some of the choices that were made.

Of course, Lucas put his story above everything else - sometimes to the detriment of what might actually be more enjoyable to see play out. He believed in the story he was telling and thought it important. This was his modern fairy-tale for kids to learn their moral lessons from. And now the ST has continued this and makes even more sense out of the masterful PT narrative.

The Supreme Leader is dead...long live the Supreme Leader!

 

This headline is so "clickbait" lmao

Interesting topic nonetheless

 

This is pretty perfect.

 

I'm not aware at all that there had been any necessity for Mr. Johnson to save the Jedi.

Somebody already did that many, years ago - his name is Yoda and the film is The Empire Strikes Back.

 

Yes!

There's a reason why, as of Episode IV, there were no Jedi known to be about the galaxy, except for Ben and Yoda. Tarkin hinted at this directly in Vader's presence.

People point to the Prequels, where this certainly was all spelled out in those films, but the original details about the Jedi purge (what we'd later refer to as "Order 66") and Emperor Palpatine rise was actually spelled out in 1976 in the Star Wars novelization:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope_(novel)

https://www.google.com/search?q=star+wars+a+new+hope+novelization+prologue

So the downfall of the Jedi was indeed designed as such, originally so, to relate the larger story Lucas had in mind.

If anything Rian Johnson, as I see it, did what he was generally expected to do as a storyteller in this saga: he built upon the existing story, advanced the narrative, honored some of the core principles while working in some creative elements and themes.

Nothing could save the Jedi but themselves, and most of them simply failed to do that.

But that was one of Johnson's greatest points in TLJ, via Yoda, with failure being revealed to be such a great teacher.

For the Jedi to have any chance to persist, even in simply the sense of having some legacy influence on Force-sensitives and future Force knowledge, current and future Force users must learn from the past.

And here is where I feel Luke can be incredibly valuable to the Order's legacy, doing what they could not, as Qui-Gon before him, while also preparing a way for the next generation, and not only with Rey, as his enduring legend is shown to inspire potential Jedi beyond her.

 

VI restored the Jedis purity. RJ did Luke wrong.But I get the idea that Luke saw TPM and a certain Gungan and wanted to die.

 

I think a take away from GL's narrative throughout SW is that governing bodies and institutions suck. The Old Republic and the Jedi Order, which were both depicted as prosperous and mostly good, still had failings. Once something gets so big, it gets cumbersome and more and more things fall through the cracks or get ignored due to it being seen as a "small" issue in the grand scheme of things. Even if Jedi's have this awesome power at their beck and call, once formed into an order it is subject (and thus gets bogged down by) to rules and regulations, bureaucracy and responsibility... basically human concerns. So eventually the concerns of the Force takes second seat as the needs of the ordinary and mundane take precedence. It's a balancing act that mirrors the real world, and that we mostly fail at, but it beats the alternative (anarchy).

 

That sounds like a story autocrats like Hux and Kylo probably tell themselves. It's useful for anarchy (literally “no ruler”) to be conflated with disorder by the rulers!

On the other hand the anarchists - probably fighting alongside the Resistance - will have their own narrative about order. Likely one that doesn't confuse “no rulers” with “no rules!”

Great original post BTW @Jaxxon
It seems like some of the controversial elements to TLJ were kinda inevitable.

 

I agree with the premise that the PT Jedi were outdated and too establishment at that point and that essentially led to the Empire. The only thing that Disney/JJ/RJ screwed up with Luke is that he would saw this before he established the new Jedi Order. The thing I love about Luke Skywalker is that by the time of ROTJ he is always a step ahead of every character in the OT, for example he wanted to redeem his father while Ben/Yoda wanted him to kill his father. Heck, the audience wanted him to kill his father, so that was a great plot twist in 1983.

After learning about his father and how everything went down with the Jedi in the PT, Luke would have not reestablished the Jedi Order the SAME way after ROTJ. He would have changed with the times, and that is why TLJ hits only a double for me, and not a homerun. I like the twist that Luke thinks the Jedi 'need to end', but it doesn't totally work for me because he only sees it 30 years after the fact. A good twist would have been that Luke NEVER established a Jedi Order, and Ben Solo trained with someone like Snoke, and turned to the darkside. That way Luke could have said, "I told you so, this is why I didn't establish a new Jedi Order, history keeps repeating itself!"

 

Whatever sour taste Lucas left for the Jedi Order, it's fixed by Yoda after he had 20 years to examine and reflect the issue. I'm under the impression that a lot of folks have forgotten what he taught Luke in ESB (and for some strange reason Mr. Johnson had made Luke "unlearn" all of these when he entered his nephew's hut):

YODA You will know. When you are calm,
at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and
defense, never for attack.

YODA Your weapons... you will not
need them.

YODA Difficult to see. Always in
motion is the future.

I would also agree that Obi-Wan in ROJ rather sounds like a Jedi of the old order with his "certain point of view" talk and firm belief that Luke has to kill Vader, while in contrast Yoda told Luke that he wasn't ready for the burden of the truth and only told Luke that he had to confront Vader again.

In TLJ the Jedi teacher (!) Luke Skywalker seems to have forgotten Yoda's lessons and what ultimately happened on the second Death Star, where it was him attacking the Emperor and Vader but he finally realized that that was the wrong approach and that Yoda had been right all along.

So I can't possibly see where Mr. Johnson saved the Jedi, Yoda had done that already, but apparently Mr. Johnson ignored Yoda's lessons in ESB and for some strange reason felt we all should "unlearn" just as Luke Skywalker supposedly did.

 

That is so hilarious but actually so true as well. To other people arguing that Luke should've never made a new Jedi Order I personally believe he would've set up the new order differently. His only mistake was not seeing the darkness in Ben and then his moment of weakness.

As an aside, it's also interesting that the trilogy of trilogies is reflecting the way the rest of the individual trilogies work. Since the chronological order is OT PT ST, the OT was the original that we all fell in love with (similar to ANH and TFA), the PT is the step child that was shunned because it did something that didn't sit well with people at the time (the same way ESB and TLJ did), and the ST (hopefully) will tie everything back together and end the trilogy on a good note (as RotJ and arguably RotS did).

Obviously I'm not saying the PT is the ESB of the saga but the analogy still stands.

 

Story department defends by claiming sequel trilogy storyline is in many elements based after original Lucas sequel trilogy ideas.

Now we acclaim that Rian saved us from Lucas.

 

I always took Luke’s rejection of Yoda’s and Obi-Wan’s perspective on Anakin being irredeemable as the first step separating him from the “old” ways. That he was going to challenge the concepts of the Jedi and forge his own path from there - reinvent the Jedi. I figured that was what Lucas was getting at. I guess we’re skipping that and having Rey do it? Meh, so be it.

No. The takeaway is that the people that inhabit those institutions, not paying enough attention and being involved, is what sucks. Power can only corrupt if you let it. It’s complacency that dooms us all: failing to hold our leadership accountable, blindly doing what we’re told, standing by and expecting someone else to fix things for us. That’s what Lucas was/is afraid of. That’s what this allegory was supposed to teach us: question authority, question the status quo, and stand up for ourselves.

I think you may have missed the OP’s point.

 

Ehhh....I'd curb that spotlight cheering over Johnson in this regard a tad, as TLJ is basically - with quite a few face-lifts in redrafts, mind you - more along the lines of what Lucas had in mind and outlined for his idea for SW7.
Disney just felt that jumping right into that deep well as the first film was a bit too much for newcomers and felt there was a need for a reintroduction film first before diving head-long into tearing apart the Jedi tangent again.

Lucas didn't have more than some rough concept outlines (treatment...ish...doesn't sound like it was even really all the way to that level quite yet), but some key concepts were definitely there, such as the disillusioned old Jedi (Luke) who begrudgingly trains the new up-coming Jedi (Kira, I think, but the name was constantly changing).

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-george-lucas-idea/

So as much as everyone keeps complaining about this tangent, and in your case, praising...the thing is, this was a tangent that Lucas was tugging on as a concept before he decided to sell to Disney.
Disney just, in my opinion correctly, decided that you can't flat out ignore the audience and you kind of have to respect the fact a new generation may not exactly know all of the nuances and you kind of need to have a starter kick everything off first and move on to the dystopic Luke later and not cram Han, Leia, their son turning to the dark side, Han's son killing him, Luke being dystopic and a crusty hermit, etc... and everything all in SW7...that's a LOT to pack into one film.

You can do that, but it requires that everyone watching is really versed on the nuances of Star Wars and has it all fresh in their minds.

So...ehhhh....I'm not sure that Johnson exactly can take full claim of saving the Jedi from Lucas when Lucas was pretty much headed down the same path in a different style.
Things would have been different, don't get me wrong. It's not like Lucas had everything down that Johnson wrote - not by a LONG shot.
But the basic thoughts were definitely expressed, and some of those ideas, like all this stuff revolving around Luke's disillusionment and judgement of the Jedi, and Han's death were brought up as things to explore.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

No... RJ falls into the trap that quite a few "fans" have. That because the Jedi were betrayed and thus destroyed, that it must be their own fault. It's a flawed perception that doesn't take into account that the Jedi had no way of knowing what the audience knew. The Jedi had lasted thousands of years with their ways, were they flawed in some ways? yes, but only so because they were "human". They weren't perfect beings. They made mistakes, they were in fact imperfect. Each and every Jedi was trying to become a better person, a better Jedi. The Jedi being portrayed as perfect and flawless was never in the OT.

No where, in not any interview, or commentary has Lucas ever said that the Jedi's teachings are what ended them, or were to blame for Anakin's turn. In fact, it is just the opposite. Lucas has stated that because Anakin doesn't listen to his Jedi training, because Anakin doesn't listen to Yoda, doesn't learn to let go, doesn't listen to the lessons about greed, etc etc, those are what lead to Anakin's turn. Not because the Jedi were outdated or flawed, or because their teachings were flawed.

Lucas himself has stated that it was his turn to learn from the Jedi teachings of letting go when he decided to not only sell LFL to Disney, but, to ultimately step aside and not be a part of the movies moving forward.

ummmm... have you watched the OT lately?

"The Jedi were the guardians of Peace and Justice in the Old Republic"
"Vader was a pupil of mine (ie a Jedi) until he turned to evil"
"Anakin (who was a Jedi) was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force"
"I thought I could teach him as well as master Yoda... I was wrong"
"helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights"

Those paraphrased quotes are from the OT...

So...
attached to political bodies? found in the OT...
Jedi that are flawed? found in the OT...
Jedi that are prideful? found in the OT...
Jedi that lose? Found in the OT...

The simple fact of the matter is that no where in the OT is it said that the Jedi were perfect. That is a manifestation of your own doing. The fact is that Obi Wan shows he was arrogant, Obi Wan tells us that a Jedi could be seduced by the Dark Side. Yoda tells us that it's possible that Luke could turn to the Dark Side, like his Father. It's the OT that tells us that the Jedi ultimately lose as they were hunted down and destroyed.

The Jedi were always going to be attached to a political system. They were the Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Old Republic, they weren't guardians of the Galaxy. They just didn't run around the Star Wars universe righting the wrongs as they saw fit.

What the Preqiels do is flesh it out for us. As we come to find out, they were attached to the Senate, which was the voice of the people of the Republic. It makes sense that the Jedi were attached to the Senate, as ideally, they would be following the wishes of the People.

If the Jedi are not attached to a democratic government, than they are no better than vigilantes. I much prefer the story that the Jedi were attached to the Senate, the voice of the people, rather than the Jedi being some group that runs around dispensing Justice on their own terms, their own morals, their own beliefs.

The problem lies in that the politicians are what betrayed the Republic and the Jedi, the problem is not that the Jedi had faith in the Republic and it's people.

The destruction of the Jedi Order was not because they allowed it, or because their ways were at fault. The fault lies in the corruption and greed of us, the people, that allowed greed, fear and corruption to makes it's way into our political institutions. This was taken advantage of by Palpatine, in much the same way that Hitler took advantage of the fear and anger of the German population.

This is the major problem I have with TLJ. Luke has fallen into the trap of the blame game that so many fans have fallen into. That it was all the Jedi's fault, and that they were a flawed organization, and they must not come back. As if anything any fan has ever suggested would have saved the Jedi. They were doomed not because they were flawed, they were doomed because people are flawed, and that is why liberty dies with thunderous applause...



Edit:

GL: Anakin wants to be a Jedi, but he cannot let go of the people he loves in order to move forward in his life. The Jedi believe that you don't hold on to things, that you let things pass through you, and that if you can control your greed, you can resolve conflict not only in yourself but in the world around you because you accept the natural course of things. Anakin's inability to follow this basic guideline is at the core of his turn to the dark side.

http://www.sci-fi-online.com/Interview/05-11-01_GeorgeLucas.htm

 

Well said.