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Rian Johnson saved the Jedi from George Lucas

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Cheers, :D
    Jayson
     
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  2. Withred

    Withred Rebel Official

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    Lucas had a great editor with ANH (I think his wife) and ESB, who reigned him in.

    With PT we didn't have that, and Jar Jar happened and Jar Jarred stuff up.
     
  3. Mike

    Mike Rebel Commander

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    What the story teller intends is the most important part of the story. It's the morals of a culture that are being passed down from story teller to audience. I am not a big fan of "my interpretation can't be wrong because it's my interpretation". Interpretations and Opinions aren't bullet proof shields against being wrong.

    I'm not a big fan of it because people refuse to check their bias at the door and instead carry it with them into a movie. I am an atheist, however, I love the movie the "Book Of Eli". For all it's religious symbolism and story about having faith, it is a compelling story, and beautiful movie. I know so many people that don't like the movie because they can't leave their bias at the door and complain about being "preached" too.

    The problem to me is that people are bringing in their own bias to the table when watching the Prequels. Is it ever stated that the Jedi are at fault for their own demise in the prequels? It's been my experience that people have issues with the Jedi way not because the rules are wrong, but, because they simply don't like the rules the Jedi live by,. So because they don't like rules of the Jedi Order, than people conflate that with meaning the rules were wrong... Many fans seem to have the same problem that Anakin had. No one is entitled to be a Jedi, being a Jedi was not some kind of right. There was a choice, either be a Jedi and follow the rules, or if you can't follow the rules, than you can't be a Jedi.



    How were they a failed institution? What, if any, of their rules could they have changed to avoid being duped by Sidious? Not be attached to the Republic? How exactly does that stop Sidious from playing both sides in the Clone Wars, and creating his Clone Army, than hunting down the Jedi anyway?


    They do? According to who? That's never established in the movies.


    No, they love unconditionally. They are not allowed attachments because they are teaching themselves to not allow their attachments to drive their decision making. Jedi are the most powerful beings in the Galaxy. They have the potential to do horrible things. They have a responsibility to the people they are protecting to not allow themselves to be corrupted or persuaded. Again, the Jedi are not perfect, they are capable of being corrupted.

    It's kind of a funny that the Jedi survive for thousands of years, and just because one Jedi has issue with the attachments rule in over a thousand years, well that means the rule is bad?


    So they should have sat on the sidelines during the Clone Wars? Sat by, in their Temple, and watched as the Separatists ravaged worlds and waged a war that killed billions? The war still goes on whether the Jedi are involved or not. I'm sure the Jedi would have preferred to not be in a war, however, they were in a bad position. If they did sit out, how would the people of the Republic have looked at them? As billions died? Maybe the Jedi should have discussed it with the fans first?

    Surely, the Jedi were hoping that by fighting for the Republic, they would give the Republic a higher advantage that would end the war soon, with limited devastation. The problem is that, once again, they are not privy to the part of the story that we the audience are privy too, that being that Palpatine was playing both sides and purposely extending the war. The Jedi were in a no win situation. Not because they became war generals, but, because they were being duped by a Sith Lord.


    How does that make them a failed institution lol...NASA uses scientific instruments all the time, so they are a failed institution too? Let's not even go into the ridiculous argument about Midichlorians. They are not the Force, Midichlorians are not the Force....


    Yes they do, and it's a part of the story that clearly Lucas uses to show that there is a widening gap opening up between Anakin and the Jedi. But.. why does this gap open with this specific issue? Is it because it was wrong of the Jeid to spy on Palpatine? Or is it because Anakin has grown attached to Palpatine?

    Spying on Palpatine is not the wrong thing to do. The institution of the Republic that is in charge of bringing bad people to Justice should especially be mindful of the possibility that the leaders of the Republic are doing bad things. Just because Palpatine is the Supreme Chancellor doesn't mean he is above the law, above suspicion or above being investigated. The Jedi have reason to believe that Palpatine is up to something, that he is abusing his powers. Investigating him is not the wrong thing to do.

    Anakin is torn because Palpatine is his friend, and once again, Anakin can't separate himself from the truth and his feelings for an attachment.


    Wait a sec, all the issues you cited in your first post were about the Jedi as individuals, and not the institution. The Jedi Order as an institution can't be prideful, individuals are. The Jedi as an institution can't be flawed, the individuals are. etc etc etc...

    All the issues you had with the Jedi we saw in the Prequels were all issues that were alluded to in the OT. To try and hide behind the "institution" angle doesn't change that.

    The problem I have is that TLJ does not squash hard enough the insinuation that the Jedi way was wrong. The idea that people learn from failures means the Jedi were failures... It still gives credence to many fans that the Jedi way is still the wrong way, and that it's up to Rey to now change the Jedi Order and make it different from what the Prequels showed us. It still leaves us with the Jedi were failures because they allowed Sidious to take over. Yes we learn from our mistakes, but, lets make sure we are talking about the actual mistakes the Jedi made, and not the conflated biased opinions of the fans that think the Jedi were failures based on fans not liking the rules, thus that means the rules were wrong. I don't like the rule that I can't do 110 mph down the highway, that doesn't mean the rule is wrong..

    That's my problem with it, that it allows those fans that want to find fault with everything the Jedi did, based on personal bias and not what's actually in the movie.
     
    #23 Mike, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  4. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    the best part of all this is that the prequel jedi are now all dead and erased...thank god. lets fix the jedi to be more like the jedi from the tales of the jedi comics
     
  5. Withred

    Withred Rebel Official

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    didn't Yoda appear? But he pretty much said the old Jedi all failed, so I guess it's okay.
     
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  6. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Obi-Wan treated us to a brief and concise objective for the Jedi: “guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic”. They failed to maintain peace, they failed to preserve justice and the Republic they served had fallen. If a group has a stated goal, and is unsuccessful in achieving that goal, then that is the very definition of ‘failure’. I understand some people are sensitive to what they perceive as ‘harsh language’, but the word means what it means. It’s not ‘good’ or ‘bad’, it just ‘is’.
    Yoda: Blind we are if creation of this clone army we could not see.
    Mace: I think it is time we informed the senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
    Yoda: Only the dark lord of the Sith knows of our weakness.

    The Jedi were incapable of perceiving the ambitions and actions of the darkside. Is that because that’s a natural aspect of the darkside? Or is that a result of the Jedi intentionally closing themselves off to that part of the Force? Either way, they were most definitely 'clouded' to that part of the Force.
    And yet the climactic event that this entire saga culminates to is decided by our hero pointedly allowing his attachment to drive his decision. He’s advised to discard that attachment - to put it aside and act as a Jedi would. But he refuses. He rejects that notion and is, in totality, vindicated for it. Now, what ‘lesson’ do you think Lucas was trying to convey with that?
    When it’s diametrically opposed to the central theme of where we wind up at the end, yes. It’s called an ‘arc’. The characters grow beyond where they started and it’s where they finish that matters. Star Wars just happened to do it in reverse, so it’s tricky to track that journey sometimes.
    No, they should have discovered that the “war” was nothing but a ruse. It was a darkside ploy that they were meant to be unwitting pawns in. But they were too myopic - too focused on the trees, they couldn’t see the forest in front of them. They couldn’t see the big picture and that’s what leads to their demise.
    Indeed. Interpretations aren’t a binary system of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. However, if someone can provide a well-reasoned and thoughtful perspective that doesn’t contradict provided material and reflects an underline theme, then shouldn’t you at least extend it some consideration?
     
    #26 eeprom, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Clever_Girl.gif
     
  8. Mike

    Mike Rebel Commander

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    So if there is a police force in your local community that is sworn to "protect and serve", and someone gets robbed, raped and murdered in your community, than you are calling your police force a failure?

    Or can we stop with the silly simplifications that are used to dumbed down how things really work in order to meet a personal narrative, and realize that there are outside factors and influences that, no matter what an institutions stated goals are, are outside the realm of influence and control.



    Your answer is right in the quote... Yet you ignore it.

    "Our ability to use the Force has diminished". Should I explain it? Start with the definition of Diminish:

    As it is used as a verb here:

    5.
    to lessen; decrease.

    In other words, their ability to use of the Force has lessened, has decreased. They used to be able to see these things, and now can't. So it has nothing to do with shutting themselves off from one side, as they were able to see these things before, but now can't. The problem is that the Force is out of balance, and the balance has shifted towards the Dark Side because of what Palpatine has done. It's actually pretty simple, and doesn't need all kinds of overly complicated thought and analyzing. No trying to blur the lines and create this narrative that in order for their to be Balance it means the Jedi should use both sides of the Force...


    Vader is not attached to his son, he can't be attached to someone he doesn't know. He does what he does out of compassion for his son, and Vader lets go of the things he is attached too. Vader is attached too the Emperor, he is attached to the Dark Side, he is attached too the Empire, to the power, to the things he has built to the ideals he has latched onto. The original reason Vader wanted his son, was not out of love or compassion, but out of greed and selfishness so that Vader could continue to keep the things he was attached too.

    So I think Lucas is sticking with everything that he has shown in the prequels. Vader denies his attachments, he denies his greed, and shows that he can still have unconditional love, unconditional compassion for someone else and makes a decision knowing that he would have to give up all the other things he has become attached too.

    Not true... Not everything has an arc. Not everything needs an arc. Again, there is nothing stated in the movies that says that the fall of the Jedi Order was warranted or justified or self inflicted. Again, there is no rule of the Jedi Order that anyone could point too that if changed, would have miraculously saved the Order from being duped by Sidious/Palpatine. That's what TLJ is saying with Luke. That it is the fault of the Jedi that Sidious was able to take over because the Jedi had become arrogant.

    They did see that the Dark Side was at play... They saw Dooku had turned to the Dark Side, Yoda admits to the shroud of the dark side having fallen. They knew that the whole thing was a problem.

    So what were they supposed to do. It's easy for you to sit there and make some kind of hindsight is 20/20, vague and generalized suggestion of what they should have seen. So what specifically should they have done that would have magically saved the day?

    It depends.. When it comes to things like movies, and people want to hide behind interpretation as a means of confirmation bias, than consideration doesn't go very far for me.

    I wish I could remember what movie it was, but, some director gave an interview, and in the interview the Director was asked about what a specific scene meant, and that to the interviewer it meant "blah blah blah metaphor for Social Injustice, Income inequality blah blah blah", and the director says "No, I just thought it was a cool scene..."

    It's why I always laugh to myself when I see people say that they don't care what Lucas intended in his story, it's only their interpretations that matter to them. Than why go to a movie? If you aren't interested in what the artist has to tell you or to say, and are only interested in imposing your own bias into the story and pulling those echo chambered interpretations out, than just stay home and watch MSNBC or Fox News. You don't have to agree with the artist, I know I don't agree with Lucas's original allegory for ANH that the USA was the Empire and the Rebels were those poor North Vietnamese... but I can still appreciate what he was saying and the story he was telling. I don't need to twist it to fit my bias and beliefs and hide behind interpretations. That's where the real consideration comes in.
     
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  9. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    I'm a big fan of TLJ and Rian Johnson, but I cringe every time I read this thread's title, as well as "Why Disney Understands the Force and Lucas Didn't."

    Honestly removes credibility from defenders of the film. *sigh*
     
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    authorial intent and viewer's interpretation are both part of the experience of any art form. the author may influence and even limit to some degree how people read/see a text, but they absolutely cannot control it. and why should they want to? the interpretation is sometimes the most rewarding part of engaging with the work.

    so please stop insisting that there is only one way to view or understand the text and that it's pointless to watch a movie unless you will slavishly accept whatever you are fed without making connections, finding personal resonances, looking for meaning, etc.
     
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  11. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel General

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    And yet Disney now says that it was George's idea all along to have an old hermit Luke in Episode VII who had lost faith in the Jedi.

    So much for yet another desperate, pointless attempt at pissing at George Lucas. You failed, my friend.
     
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  12. Oursourced

    Oursourced Rebelscum

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    How does this:

    At all relate to this:

     
  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i believe he's responding to the OP and not me.
     
  14. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

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    Bold post.
    I agree with your view of OT and PT.
    I disagree with the claim that RJ reinstates the Jedi as heroes. They can not be. Not the old Jedi. Unless they change their view of the Force.
    What Luke comprehends in TLJ is beyond anything any Jedi before him understood...apart from Qui-Gon maybe. The Force is what connects the Light and the Darkness. Brings them in dependance of one another, intertwines them so to speak....Without it...there is only the two autonyms in total opposition.
    Also...being a Jedi is not about holding a power position in an institutionalized order and having a fancy lightsaber. But it is in understanding...oneself, the world around them and one's place in it. And doing it humbly. Take it as a parabol with being religious vs. having faith.

    I disliked the orphan kids scenes. I thought it blatantly patronizing. Broom kid will grow up to be another disillusioned Cassian if things dont change in the Resistance leadership.
     
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  15. Withred

    Withred Rebel Official

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    Broom kid will be Anakin 3.0...

    Oh wait, Lucas isn't writing these movies. phew.

    A lot of "mistakes" the ST is making are ones Lucas made with PT and OT. (Like snook having no backstory like a certain OT emperor, who only got one years later.)

    Thank heck for no PT 2.0.
     
  16. Oursourced

    Oursourced Rebelscum

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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    If it's at all reasonably provable that law enforcement agents could have prevented these crimes, yet didn't - then, yes, that's a failure of the police to fulfill their primary duty.
    What we have to go on are statements like this: “The darkside clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.” You’re asserting this is a product of ‘imbalance’ and not evidence of the Jedi being blind to this aspect of the Force. I disagree. They cannot see things they otherwise could, because these are darkside related machinations they are unable to divine from their vantage point. It’s a difference of opinion.
    I very much disagree on this point as well. A father’s impulse to protect his child is not contingent on familiarity. Would he have reacted the same if it was Han being tortured at his feet? Not bloody likely. This is not a nonspecific egalitarian gesture - a selfless noble deed. This was a father overriding his twisted ambitions to react to the immediate peril of his son and eliminating the threat. I’m sorry, but that’s attachment through and through for me.
    I’m pretty sure I didn’t say “everything has an arc”. I do believe this six part saga does though. And I’m rather baffled at the perspective that something has to be expressly stated in order for it to be a valid message. It’s subtext and these movies are filled with it.
    That’s not what’s being suggested here in my observation. It’s that the prevailing attitude and perspective of the Jedi is ultimately self-destructive. That they are, in part, the architects of their own demise. The most emblematic line for me of the entire prequel trilogy is this one from Mace, “Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character.”

    In that little declaration, we’re told everything we need to know about the Order. They believed themselves beyond reproach. They had so much faith in their practices and prohibitions that not even a FORMER Jedi could be susceptible to acts of moral debasement. They had an exalted assessment of themselves and it was proven, in this instance, to be undeniably WRONG. The Jedi are indeed fallible. Their unquestionable faith in their ways can be misguided.

    They begin AOTC bemoaning the prospect of war, but end the film as the conflict’s champions. That’s not an accidental contradiction in value.
    Not been so thoroughly blinded by their self-imposed limitations that they couldn’t see that the Lord of the Sith, architect to this faux civil war, was standing right in front of them the whole time. You don’t accept that premise, so you won’t accept that response. You don’t believe the Jedi have any blame to be assumed in their own downfall. I believe if the Jedi hadn’t been so closed off to the holistic Force (good and bad) they would have seen Palpatine coming a mile away. That’s the lesson I get from the prequels. You don't agree and that's fine.
    Wow, so much for art being subjective, huh? If you see a painting and it affects you a certain way, are you really going to change that feeling because the artist intended you to feel a different way? Maybe you do. Maybe it just better informs your opinion. Maybe you reject it outright. You’re inclined to react however you want. Glad you get some humor out of it.
    Ha ha ha. Since we’re mentioning it, that was never my interpretation of his intentions either. What I believe he meant was that the Empire was what the US *could be* if the citizens never stood up to a corrupt and unjust leadership (Nixon), and allowed a nation, based on liberty, to become a fascist dictatorial state. If that were to ever happen, hopefully the people would rise up and REBEL – a second American Revolution. That’s just my interpretation though :)
     
    #37 eeprom, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  18. Mike

    Mike Rebel Commander

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    Did you bother reading my post, or have you lost your mind so much at the idea that someone is suggesting that the artists intent actually means more than an audiences members interpretations that you resort to ignoring what I actually said and have decided to use hyperbole to attack me?

    I never said anyone had to slavishly accept anything, I never said there is only one way to look at a "text". I in fact made it a point, to say that I do not like or accept Lucas's Allegory for ANH, but, that doesn't mean I get to say that Lucas's intent is wrong or doesn't matter, and that I interpret ANH as the Rebels are symbolic for the USA and the Empire is symbolic for Communism. And because it's my interpretation, that means I cannot be wrong.

    There are certainly areas where an artist intentionally leaves content vague, ie the Force in Star Wars. Lucas has come out said he purposely left a lot about the Force vague so as to not paint it into one corner of one religion, but to openly leave it vague so people with different background and different experiences can relate to it's spiritual elements on a personal level. And yes, I am sure an artist doesn't mind, on some levels, interpretation. I believe Lucas has even said that himself. But, I never said a person can't have their interpretation, as you want to try and suggest I said.

    However, that doesn't mean that the artist isn't trying to get a message across either. Again, if you aren't open to the idea that the artist is trying to tell you something, than why go? If all that matters to someone is their interpretation, that is usually just their own bias shining thru, than why?

    But again, lets refrain from putting words in my mouth. I never said people can't have their interpretations, I have said, that if you aren't going to be open to the intentions of the artist, than why watch the movie? That I don't believe in the idea that interpretations are bullet proof shields against being wrong, as it is often used as.

    Why would an artist want people to see and understand their intent and the messages they are trying to get across in a movie? Because as someone like Lucas has often come out and said, he tells stories, especially Star Wars, to pass on to the younger generations of what is expected of them as they get older. The morals of their society, etc etc. That is why a lot of story tellers tell stories, not so you can have your interpretation, but, because the artist wants to make a point to the audience.

    when Lucas was asked why he was making a children's movie:

    "I think I can have more of an influence on some people. I think I can have things to say that I can actually influence kids, you know adolescents, 12 year olds. They're trying to make their way into the bigger world, and that's basically what mythology was, was to say this is what we believe in, these are our rules, this is what we are as a society. "





    So instead of getting all bent out of shape about what you think I am saying and actually address what I really said. I enevr said a person can't have their intrepretaiton, but, if you aren't open to the artists intentions, than why bother?

    I mean, if all you're going to do is ignore the intentions of the artist and only go by your interpretation than that is actually being closed minded.

    Being open minded would be saying to oneself, OK, so this is what I think the movie means, but, what is the artist actually trying to tell me? And than watching the movie again, or actually trying to find out what the artist was trying to say, rather than doubling down and saying that the artist doesn't matter and it's only my interpretations that matter.
     
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  19. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel General

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    I was talking to the OP.
     
  20. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Jedi Commander

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    Hey man, let's not get mad about this. I'm just here to have a good time discussing movies I love, and the interplay of different ideas and interpretations is part of the enjoyment. Let's just work together to appreciate the thing we love on a deeper level. No hard feelings about these disagreements.

    Personally, I think there's an important middle ground between "the artist's intent doesn't matter" and "only my interpretation matters." I think the aritst's intent is quite important, and authorial comments on a work can add a lot of insight. That said, I think that any artist who conveys something true, even in a sci-if adventure movie, can potentially create something bigger than his/her own intent. I think that real connections and interpretations can exist that go further than an author intended.

    I totally agree that viewers should not simply resort to their own interpretations as law. But I think the measure for the rightness or wrongness of an interpretation is the text itself, rather than the artist's intent. Sometimes an author meant to say one thing, but the vast majority of viewers, even the text itself, seem to suggest a different interpretation. In such cases I think it's quite possible for an artist to be wrong about his or her own work.
     
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