Rian Johnson talk about the changes to the Force in TLJ

My god man, you do nothing but assume with your own head canon. WE DON'T KNOW WHEN LUKE COULD DO CERTAIN THINGS. 4 years? How the hell do you know? Because it took that long for ESB to be released in theaters? Are you serious?

 

Rey's power is explained numerous times:

The Force awakened - suggesting an eruption of power.
She saw inside Ren's head and realised many possibilities.
Maz taught her how to connect to the Force.
Luke teaches her how to feel the Force even more.
Snoke explains that "darkness rises and the light to meet it" - she is on par with Kylo.
An untrained kid uses telekinesis - clearly the Force is acting differently.
And finally, well, the Force moves in mysterious ways.

 

A New Hope: 0 BBY
The Empire Strikes Back: 3 ABY
Return of the Jedi: 4 ABY

That's not even headcanon. Look it up.

 

The point is that Luke could've learned things a week after ANH finished or a day before TESB began. We don't know. And it doesn't matter. There are no hard and fast rules here. And Rey's abilities are explained anyway.

 

That's your defense?

 

Can we not forget that Luke was blocking laser blasts from a training remote on the Falcon, essentially blindfolded. On his third attempt, he blocked the blasts. Only difference is Han called it luck.

 

I'm not defending anything or anyone. Just saying. I see no need to debate this. As I demonstrated above, Rey's abilities were explained.

 

Force projection is used multiple times in rebels.

 

Alright, let's take a good and hard look at these explanations and what they mean for storytelling in Star Wars looking forward.

OK.

So, she absorbed levels of Force proficiency others have had to train to develop entirely through osmosis. How is that interesting? How does that develop her character in any meaningful sense?

Forgive me but considering how shoehorned her presence was in The Last Jedi, her supposed contribution to Rey's development just seems random and totally bizarre.

"Yeah, Rey. I wasted all this time doing physical conditioning and practicing proper manipulation of the world around me through the Force but don't worry, all you have to do is feel and go through this trippy sequence that doesn't develop your character at all and only serves to answer an empty meta narrative no one cared about to begin with. Alright, now you can fight the greatest melee combatants in the galaxy with no problem at all. Pff, what do you mean training? That's for the villains.

So, if the Force ultimately decides to balance it out of its own accord, where does that leave the characters? Why do their hardships even matter at that point? Why do their trials and tribulations matter and why should the audience care if this ambiguous entity just evens it out regardless? That's why I've always preferred to view the Chosen One prophecy as superstition. Because that's the only way it has any relevance to the rest of the saga's themes while preserving the drama.

See the point above.

 

No, she saw that you could use the Force to alter people's minds. She saw things could be taken from them and believed ideas could be put in them too.

That's another debate. She taught Rey to listen to the Force, listen to the light. This insight gave Rey extra impetus in her fight with Ren.

The Force can control your actions and obey your commands. Luke teaches her how to feel the Force even further. This of course aids her in combat ALONGSIDE her already established fighting abilities.

You misunderstand me. I'm simply saying the Force provided her with an Anakin level connection to the Force - by that I mean her power is a reaction to Ben's rather than the Force intervening and taking away agency/free will. This increased connection enables talents to come more easily to Rey than other beings we have seen.

Right back at ya.

 

You do realize that your argument is that the force isn't being presented in a realistic way in the ST but it was in the OT. I just gave you examples of when it was used in the same way and you don't respond.

Anakin can see images on a tablet. Never seen training.
Anakin can pilot Pod's (only human that could do it?). Never seen training.
Luke deflects laser bolts blindfolded on third try. Only coaching? Stretch out with your feelings.
Luke force pulls the lightsaber out of frozen ice/snow. Never seen trained. Probably not first time he force pulled. But first time in ice.

The point is, enjoy that the force can do many wonderful and powerful things in the right person. Most of these are "simple tricks" when you compare it to the things the force can really do. That's why I love Luke's force projection. So many times we hear lines like "The Emporer will show you the true nature of the force", but we never see anything more than lightsaber duels and force pushes.

 

Her already established fighting abilities against brutish thugs on Jakku which is applicable to members of the most sophisticated fighting force in the galaxy at the moment?

Yeah, the Force balances it out by granting providing her with the advantage to match Ben. I don't get how that's different if it makes up for any disparity of skill imaginable.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 20, 2017 ---

So controlling minds is a simple trick? That totally isn't a copout or anything.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2017 ---

Yeah, I already addressed these and you ignored that post entirely.

 

I can’t continue to engage you when your arguments sound more like trolling.

 

You not being able to adequately counter an argument doesn't make it tantamount to trolling.

 

Both myself and @master_shaitan have given you canon examples and commons sense arguments. You obviously don’t want to hear them or understand that the movies have explained all of this. What you choose to do with it is your problem.

TLJ and TFA were written with a lot of care and did great job respecting the nuances presented in the previous films.

 

So you concede, excellent.

 

If you can’t understand what I just said no wonder you can’t understand these films.

 

Who did Luke fight before he took on Vader? She has fighting abilities. Enough to surprise Finn. And then she learned about the Force. Seemed legit to me.

If you have a strong connection to the Force then you have special talents from a young age - as we saw with Anakin.

 

At relatively the same age as her, he wasn't taking on expert-level duelists unscathed and had no proficiency with mind control despite being trained as a Jedi for years.

 

One thing I am fearful of after seein TLJ is that random forcepowers will be used as cheap plotdevices to get our heroes out of sticky situations a lot more frequently. Similar to how the whole "Leia flies through space scene" went down. It wasn't unbelievable that Leia used the force but the timing and efficiency with which she used it felt odd. When I saw this scene I pictured Han Solo turn over to Finn on Starkiller base. "That's not how the force works!"

Given that we see forcepowers pop up everywhere without any training or special heritage tied to them I can already see a bunch of characters in future movies who just happen to discover their forcepowers when a certain situation makes it necessary for them.

"- I didn't know you could do forcelightning to shut down this army of killerdroids?
- Well me neither, hahahahaha!"

Yeah, I really hope they establish some sort of rules again. Doesn't have to be all black and white, all sith and jedi. But make it so that at least you need long training and/or a mentor and most importantly a strong willpower to fully unlock the force inside of you, something that most people will never do their whole life.