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Rian Johnson talk about the changes to the Force in TLJ

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Mr Hux, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Malus Dagoth

    Malus Dagoth Rebelscum

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    Stood his ground but was cornered, outmaneuvered and egregiously incapacitated? Is that what you call standing your ground?
     
  2. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    That wasn't my question. How long was Luke on Dagobah? He wore one outfit the entire time. He was there from the time Han and Leia escape Hoth to the time they get to Bespin. I've already explained how she won. She was a fighter. She let the force in thanks to Maz Kanata's words of wisdom. The force took over and helped her win. Kylo on the other hand was an emotional mess. Unbalanced, and hurt from a Laser bolt from a bowcaster. It's not hard to understand people.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 20, 2017 ---
    "Impressive. Most impressive." Luke was over matched, but never held a lightsaber in combat and was facing the most powerful man in the galaxy.
     
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  3. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Huh that's weird because I saw Obi wan train him on the Falcon and guide him when blowing up the Deathstar. But the lightsaber is a good example how it took Luke years from when he learnt of the force to move the lightsaber while Rey had already mastered the mindtrick in one sitting (no pun intended) and managed to not only move the sword towards her hands but also snatch it away from Kylo, a trained forceuser (not like that matters anymore).

    I truly do not understand how you cannot see a problem with this. How you don't seem to give a flying f... that Rey is lifitng heavier objects than anyone we ever saw including Palpatine and Yoda after only days with little to know formal training. I am a massive fanboy but this puts every "Top ten strongest forceusers List" upside down for no reason at all. She didn't need to lift a bazillion rocks up at once, a single heavy rock blocking the entrance would have done the trick just as fine. But nope, let's make her more powerful than Yoda but pretend she is not a Merry Sue.

    As for Luke and Dagoba
     
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  4. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    Are we comparing thugs from Jakku to one of the strongest force users in the galaxy? Even if wounded it's still ridiculous, it's like if Luke had defeated Vader on ANH.
    Yes the force can help her of course, but we never saw the force be so helpful to anyone else. Why would the jedi train at all if they can let the force guide them?
     
  5. Flyboy

    Flyboy Jedi Commander

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    It took Luke until Yoda lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp for him to realize just how powerful the force is, it took him sometime between Empire/ROTJ for him to fully embrace it. So Luke didn't have years, it was more like one year from the time he gets off Dagobah, to the start of ROTJ... Still far more time than Rey sure, but...

    Rey knows all about the history, she knows about the Jedi, the Force and the wars, she doesn't close herself off from it, she embraces it. The biggest hill to overcome in your training is embracing the Force, she did that on her own, probably before ever realizing she had it. Luke's aunt and uncle kept him completely closed off from knowing ANYTHING about the Force and it isn't until he meets Ben that he begins to learn about it.
     
    #85 Flyboy, Dec 20, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
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  6. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    "I can't it's too big". "Size matters not."
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 20, 2017 ---
    Wasn't that the problem with the Prequel Jedi? They didn't allow the living force to guide them? They were too worried about their own rules and teachings that the force wasn't used to its full potential, which led to a bunch of blind monks getting beaten by 2 Sith Lords.
     
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  7. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    The prequel jedi were a disaster agreed, but the idea that hard work, effort or perseverance was the cause of this doesn't make any sense to me.
     
  8. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    At least not for Rey. Everyone else has limits but not Rey. Yoda should finally open himself up to the force and understand that size matters not. He became one withthe force but really, he should open up to the force more. Then maybe we would see him lift rocks like Rey...

    In all honesty though let me simplify this for you.
    We have reference points for how powerful the force is.
    Someone like young Luke trying to get his lightsaber on Hoth is on the lowest end of the spectrum. Yoda and Palpatine are on the highest end of the spectrum.

    Everyone who exceeds their abilities defies the Canon we had so far. If this happens for no reason, then its bad writing. The force is the same for everyone. The rules that apply to it are the same for Palpatine and Yoda. If Rey can somehow bend the rules we need an explaination and "your parents were nobodies (meaning not force sensitive)" doesn't count because so were Palpatines and Yodas. It's baffling how you can try so hard to make Rey's powerspikes work instead of just admitting that Rian overshot the mark with Rey in the Crait scene with the sole intend of making it look cool.
     
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  9. Malus Dagoth

    Malus Dagoth Rebelscum

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    Dude, you were arguing that Luke stood his ground against Darth Vader because he jumped out of a hole.
     
  10. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    WHAT are you talking about? Yoda didn't have trouble lifting or deflecting rocks. Get your head of your cockpit.

    Rey even says "lifting rocks" when she concentrates and lifts them. Her friends are in that cave. I'm sure force adrenaline can be pretty powerful too. Again, she's much more focused than Luke ever was.

    SIZE MATTERS NOT. HOW MANY ROCKS MATTERS NOT.

    Luke even says "I've seen this raw strength only ONCE before, in Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then, it does now". It's being setup that she is VERY POWERFUL. Kylo says it in TFA. "She's strong in the Force, untrained but stronger than she knows".

    Get over folks. Rey is powerful. Rey is gifted. Rey is focused. Rey is good hearted. Rey can lift a blast load of rocks.
     
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  11. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    So apparently no Jedi before Rey cared enough. Seems legit. Palpatine doesn't care enough to kill Yoda. Yoda doesn't care enough to kill Palpatine. Noone ever unlocked such power because they didn't care enough. In the OT everyone was on painkillers and Valium but now make room for the first forceuser to really care. Because Rey knows the resistance for like 2 weeks and now she cares more than anyone has ever cared before. Yeah. Must be another thing I missed when looking at Rian's flawless script. Like how many people missed that the Readdus only had fuel for 18 more hours but Rey simultaneously staid on Anch-To for days. What a flawless writer. They better turn Rey into the prime jedi seen in that mosaic on Anch-To or I will expect master sith and jedi pop up everywhere through the power of caring enough.
     
    #91 BobRoss, Dec 20, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2017
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  12. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    I figured they would explain her overpower abilities from TFA by saying she had previous training and memory erased. That final scene where she basically moves a mountain of boulders was simply stupid. Maybe if she used the force to move one or two rocks to make a hole, but to move the entire mountain, geeze, how stupid for her level of training. I really want to like her character, but she has not earned any of the powers she has in the movies and she never fails. She is the worse type of hero.
     
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  13. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Who said anything about caring?
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 20, 2017 ---
    I just don't have a huge issue with the boulders. If it was two boulders and not a landslide, they could simply have used blasters or a detonator to get out.

    I do agree that they really needed to make Rey fail at some point in this film. I guess her facing Snoke was a failure. Her believing Kylo would turn was a failure. But she did need a reality check at some point. I would have bet money she would have faced Kylo and lost in a fight earlier in the film.
     
  14. Dennis Paruch

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    Thanks. Excellent response! RJ should hire you as his Star Wars Expert.
    For shields I guess I think in Star Trek terms. Shields are up or down. You provide a great explanation for hitting the Raddus.

    I saw a big fireball when the bridge gets blown up/into space. Definitely a physics stretch to say Leia got blown into space unharmed & remained conscious but okay. I suppose she used some Jedi power to survive in space too.

    You're right. Upon second viewing Snoke did bridge their minds.
    Agreed. Snoke could know tricks others didn't. We like to know back history of these powers or a little story telling. RJ threw out these powers like the Emperor threw out Force Lightning in ROTJ. Luke didn't say, "Hey! Where'd you learn how to shoot lightning." We don't know Snoke's history or what other Force powers he knew. And we don't know what tricks Luke & Leia learned over the years.

    (Surprised Disney hasn't published a copy of the sacred Jedi books. Fans want to know what other Jedi powers exist. It would sell like hot cakes & give RJ some needed support.)

    Thanks again for your detailed reply. Unfortunately this movie just didn't work for me.
     
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  15. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Maybe Ahch-To has time like Mortis and Dagobah. Just watch the Youtube video you posted.
     
  16. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    First of all thanks for the "trolling" icon. What you were probably looking for is the "disagree" icon unless every oppinion that goes against yours is considered trolling. Secondly I used caring as an umbrella term for "Rey is powerful. Rey is gifted. Rey is focused. Rey is good hearted" because all these things boil down to caring enough about your friends, your goals, etc. I could have also said: Rey was apparently the first to really give a f*ck but I though "caring" sounded nicer. You can like my oppinion or not but I have given you an example that there are plotholes in Rians script. The time different plotlines take while happening simultaneously is one of them. and that's a pretty big and consistent plothole. I mentioned this flaw in the script to make it clear that Rian's work isn't perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect but this also means that we should treat it like something open to debate.

    Over 8 films (If you count R1) plus the clone wars and rebels series we have seen many forceusers lift objects. Many of these forceusers were well trained, experienced, talented and motivated. Some would later move on to become one with the force (forceghosts) which makes it obvious that they fully embraced and understood the force. Not a single one of them got close to lift half a mountain like Rey did and froma storytelling point of view it thus makes no sense. She could have cracked open the stone like on Anch-To freeing the people in the cave below (which would have been a nice little nod to how Luke trained her). She could have moved one rock or wto but Rian chose to let lift a whole landslide of rocks. This begs the question: Why was noone before her able to do this. And it is utterly pointless. This scene has no benefit other than" Woooow she is so powerfu - wait a minute why can she do that?"
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 20, 2017 ---
    Uhm no. How could the forcetime happen in realtime? Rey would be seeing Kylo talking in slowmotion or just sitting there frozen depending on the time delay. Also unless stated otherwise there is no reason to assume time delay. If time moved a lot faster on Anch-To than elsewhere in the universe Luke would have also been dead for decades or centuries.
     
    #96 BobRoss, Dec 20, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2017
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  17. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    I agree with you in that Rey's powers develop too quickly and with no explanation but saying that no one ever achieved similar levels of power is not quite accurate, there are plenty of examples of much more powerful feats.
     
  18. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    If so then please name them. Show me who has bested Rey in the ability of telekinesis. If there is a Canon example I would really like to see it.
     
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  19. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    Out of the top of my head, the column Yoda liftes in AOTC seemed much more heavy than those boulders, the x-wing as well.
     
  20. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Nope absolutely not. First of all Yoda only lifts the colum up a little bit, the boulders Rey lifts hover meters above her head. Secondly you could build 5 Yoda columns out of the stones Rey lifts into the air. I don't know how many times you have seen the movie yet but the whole screen is covered with hovering stones and Rey is really tiny compared to many of the boulders.
     
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