1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Rian Johnson's "Comedy" in TLJ

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Fernus, Jun 6, 2018.

?

Did you like comedy in TLJ?

  1. Yes, I loved it! The film is so much better with it

    7 vote(s)
    9.7%
  2. Yes, it was fine for most of the time

    16 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. The comedy was alright. Some jokes didn't land, but nothing unforgivable

    11 vote(s)
    15.3%
  4. I didn't like most of the jokes. Some were fine

    12 vote(s)
    16.7%
  5. The jokes were bad. They interfered with the general mood of the movie

    13 vote(s)
    18.1%
  6. The jokes were atrocious. Nothing good about the comedy here at all

    13 vote(s)
    18.1%
  1. ZDTemplar

    ZDTemplar Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    May 5, 2018
    Posts:
    123
    Likes Received:
    134
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Credits:
    174
    Ratings:
    +215 / 12 / -0

    I think there's a distinct difference between the humor types. Watch Thor: Ragnarok to see Marvel Humor at its height and most direct, then watch TLJ. They just aren't the same. One is more sillier, the other is more comical. There aren't really good moments in SW like when Banner tries to turn into the hulk, but splats onto the bridge in front of everybody, and flops. But TLJ tried to have lower-age humor like that, and I did not work for even huge fans of the movie itself.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2017
    Posts:
    432
    Likes Received:
    1,719
    Trophy Points:
    6,042
    Credits:
    2,970
    Ratings:
    +2,165 / 13 / -10
    fixed it

    -------------------------

    TFAs humor was a lot better imo.

    Rians writing lacked JJs and Kasdans wit, it almost felt like I was watching a MCU flick.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    4,264
    Likes Received:
    20,319
    Trophy Points:
    147,167
    Credits:
    16,117
    Ratings:
    +26,747 / 117 / -89
    wc.gif
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
    • Like Like x 1
  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
    1030th Commander *** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    9,383
    Likes Received:
    109,451
    Trophy Points:
    170,067
    Credits:
    55,126
    Ratings:
    +124,475 / 65 / -7
    if you have an issue with a post that you feels violates the forum rules, please bring it to the attention of the mods by using the report button.
    posting the word hate over and over (and in all-caps) doesn't really help the conversation in a constructive way, does it?
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Wise Wise x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    4,264
    Likes Received:
    20,319
    Trophy Points:
    147,167
    Credits:
    16,117
    Ratings:
    +26,747 / 117 / -89
    tenor (11).gif
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Fernus

    Fernus Clone Commander

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2017
    Posts:
    84
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    457
    Credits:
    354
    Ratings:
    +275 / 17 / -9
    I think the problem with our discussion is that most people didn't watch the video. I did not supplement it as a bonus - it is, in fact, a rather smart and well though-out video. It explains the difference between the OT humor and TLJ humor.

    When it comes to me, the humor wasn't the worst offender of the movie (the overall plot and the editing were), but it didn't help, either. Oftentimes it destroyed nice moments. When the jokes weren't bad, they were inappropriate. Only one joke kinda landed for me: strangely, it's when Poe is flying on a peace of junk speeder in the very end. Dunno why. The other humor is not just bad, it reminded me of parody. Like Rian is laughing at SW.

    And no, this is not a hate thread. I included everyone in the poll.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Posts:
    2,262
    Likes Received:
    3,944
    Trophy Points:
    12,867
    Credits:
    7,270
    Ratings:
    +7,044 / 677 / -468
    The root of the issue is Rian Johnson's dialogue. There wasn't one line which felt grandiose or witty, it all came off like first draft material.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Original Original x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  8. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel General

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Posts:
    510
    Likes Received:
    734
    Trophy Points:
    4,492
    Credits:
    1,513
    Ratings:
    +1,076 / 28 / -2
    I think you summed it up describing it as slapstick.
     
  9. Diego Lucas

    Diego Lucas Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2018
    Posts:
    72
    Likes Received:
    115
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Credits:
    227
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -0
    My biggest problem, same as Canto Bight.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2017
    Posts:
    796
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Trophy Points:
    4,742
    Credits:
    1,763
    Ratings:
    +1,946 / 63 / -24
    I wasn't a fan of the attempts at humor in TLJ.

    I wasn't a fan of most of the PT humor.

    The OT humor was more relevant to the story, it felt more natural rather than forced (ewoks aside, though as a kid I enjoyed it). Even TFA achieved this. TLJ touched on it now and then, but mostly it felt more in your face. It also affected characters in meaningful ways... Hux and Poe, this is where the Hux silliness started. Luke's saber toss began his deconstruction (humor with subversion, and neither landed for me).

    The OT has some R2 and Threepio humor, but I took it as showing the limitation of droids more than anything else. I smiled and moved on. It didn't impact the story in a very big way, just broke tension.

    In TLJ, the humor that I probably enjoyed the most was Yoda's, though I understand others didn't like it, and I understand why. I liked it because it reminded me of old Yoda from ESB. But I think if you're a PT fan and watched those movies a lot, I could see how that humor wouldn't quite fit for you because your Yoda is a more serious, responsible Yoda.

    I think most SW has some jokes that don't quite fit, but what separates TLJ is that the early ones have resounding impact on established characters and subverts them. Eliminate Hux/Poe and Luke's saber toss and I think the rest wouldn't be worth discussing that much.

    So for me, two jokes too many, and they set the tone for the movie being at the beginning.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Posts:
    238
    Likes Received:
    374
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    671
    Ratings:
    +611 / 11 / -4
    Obviously comedy is subjective, different people find different things to be funny. My problem with the video is a problem I have with the vast majority of film 'critics' (full transparency: I have no love for art critics; I think they are the very definition of a parasite - taking from and yet contributing nothing helpful or useful to the relationship) and that is that they produce misinformation, misguide their audience and proceed from false premises.

    The main culprit is what I would call "storytelling 101", or, "this is how you make a film" which is the attempt to force a single, specific structure onto a medium which is inherently fluid in structure. For instance in this video the author makes the claim toward the intro about the opening scene of a movie, and that the purpose of the opening scene is designed to do such and such (in this case, communicate the tone of the entire film). But what he's saying isn't an absolute, it is one school of thought that is only relative to one specific method of structure. The same problem arises with the use of words like "tone" and "pacing" and just about any jargon used for description of any art, in this case, film. It only has relative meaning to one specific structure, and has no meaning outside of that structural relationship.

    What I mean is something like, suppose you are listening to music for the first time. The music has a basic structure intro/melody/chorus/melody/chrous/solo/meldoy/chorus/outro. Now you then move into more music and you hear a song with a different structure overture/chorus/melody/solo/chorus/melody/harmony/chorus/outro and you say "But this is all wrong, music 101, intro/melody/chorus, this is how music is written". Then you move onto more music and suddenly you're hearing a series of five songs which are all thematically connected: it's a concept album. You say "But this is not right, these songs are continuing the theme throughout one another, this is not how music is written, theme is supposed to change between individual songs and not connect together in a kind of conceptual musical whole": now you see the problem with the 'critique' of the music here?

    These things are only relative to one specific structure of myriad structures, and so when critics speak of "tone" and "pacing" and such, they are engaging in misunderstanding the nature of what they are evaluating. They are trying to force one specific structure of thought onto a medium which refuses to be constrained by one proverbial straightjacket. The medium is as varied and nuanced as human beings are varied and nuaced in relation to one another.

    So when the video says "the purpose of the opening scene is to communicate" he is speaking in absolutes which are not true. What he should really be saying is "according to one specific school of thought, the purpose of this is..." but if you are evaluating something, and that something is not conforming to your school of thought, then the conclusion is simply that, this is not being formed according to that specific school of thought, but is taking a different approach.

    There is really no such a thing as "storytelling 101" or "tonal structure" or "pacing issues" except in relation to one specific structure, which is only one structure in myriad structures. When he says there is a tonal shift, he isn't realizing a tonal shift will always be radical. It will always be a shift. In a film that is generally serious in nature, any comedy relief will always be a 180 shift immediately upon introduction simply because comedy is a 180 shift from serious.

    There is no "right" or "wrong" introduction of a new tone, at any point, any time. There is only, how do you subjectively relate to this? Do you like it, not like it, indifferent to it? No one is at fault for not laughing at a joke. The writer is not at fault for you not laughing, you are not at fault for not laughing. It is just the way it is.

    He speaks about Hux not being taken seriously, and yes, that is the point of the scene. Hux seems like a person who wants to be heard. He is all about being heard. This is communicated by the way he wants to make sure he is being heard by Poe. This is telling us about Hux. Tone is not only communicated by words, it is communicated by imagery and music. The tone of the opening scene of TLJ is like a dark painting with fourishes of light points. There is nothing "wrong" about the painting, the painter certainly isn't at "fault" for painting the way he paints. You may look at the painting and say "I like this painting, I like the way the flourishes highlight and even deepen the darker whole", you may say "I find the flourishes jarring and distracting" you may say "I would've gone with broader flourishes, in different places" - none of these are "right" or "wrong" experiences, and no one is at fault for their contribution, neither the viewer nor the painter.

    BUT, if you say "this painting is wrong, painting 101, you do not put light flourishes on a dark painting, it ruins the tone, and the painter is at fault for producing a bad painting" then I would suggest that the only one really at fault here, is the 'critic' for not understanding the nature of what he is looking at, and inappropriately trying to place blame on someone for his lack of enjoyment of the painting.

    If you made it to the end of this post, congrtulations. Your endurance is impressive.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    1,762
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Trophy Points:
    11,087
    Credits:
    4,110
    Ratings:
    +4,767 / 128 / -35
    I was an early critic of the comedy in TLJ, but after a few viewings I am starting to change my tune. While I wasn't in love with the Poe/Hux cell phone joke, it does fit his humor from TFA where he mocks Kylo Ren, "Ok....who talks first....." so I can take that with a grain of salt now as it's consistent with his character. I do think some of the Luke/Rey comedic exchanges hold up well on multiple viewings. When Luke jokes after Rey says she is from Jakuu and he says, "OK, that is nowhere!" and when Rey says, "I've seen your daily schedule, you're not that busy!" I may have the exact words wrong, but they are funny lines. I do laugh when Rose calls Finn 'THE Finn' and he sort of stands up straight like he is a big deal now. Even the Porgs don't bother me, or the other creatures on Ach-Tu who don't like Rey. I say all of this because whenever I watch the PT movies, the humor makes me cringe as that did not hold up well, or actually never held up to begin with.
     
    #32 Jedi77-83, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  13. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Posts:
    640
    Likes Received:
    17,569
    Trophy Points:
    144,517
    Credits:
    12,063
    Ratings:
    +18,032 / 7 / -6
    Wow... is it possible to give a person more than one "Great Post" rating?

    Personally, I laughed at most of the jokes during my first viewing of the movie, and so did most of my theater. Upon that viewing, the only jokes that I didn't care for were some of the jokes on Canto Bight that reminded me of Jar Jar Binks level humor (namely the blobby-opera-alien-lady and that small mustache alien that burped and tried to put his coins into BB-8). In retrospect, the Poe-Hux joke at the beginning doesn't hold up so well on multiple viewings, but most of the other jokes still don't really stick out to me.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Posts:
    527
    Likes Received:
    813
    Trophy Points:
    4,017
    Credits:
    1,353
    Ratings:
    +1,245 / 70 / -19
    Just because you are a "filmmaker" doesn't mean you are a comedian or an editor. A talented editor could have made TLJ an amazing Star Wars movie.
     
  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
    1030th Commander *** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    9,383
    Likes Received:
    109,451
    Trophy Points:
    170,067
    Credits:
    55,126
    Ratings:
    +124,475 / 65 / -7
    100% this. we can choose to engage with the art and enjoy it or not.
    it's pretty much as simple as that.

    no amount of divisiveness or hate or failure or hammering critique (even legitimate critique) can make me dislike something if i want to enjoy it.
    in the same way no amount of praise or box office cred or youtube slobbering or accolades can make me enjoy something i don't want to.

    i am the captain of my own ship. : D
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  16. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Posts:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    43,233
    Trophy Points:
    165,177
    Credits:
    5,821
    Ratings:
    +47,466 / 18 / -6
    it's a tad long for a bumper sticker.. but this needs to go up somewhere !

    well put FN! and very nice post @metadude :)


    on topic:-
    depending on what happens in ep9.. i might have preferred less comedy at Hux's expense (if he boils over and turns on Ren in ep9 then i think comedy in 8 is fine)

    i 'might' have done the Luke light saber scene differently. maybe just hand it back to Rey and walk off dis-interested instead of throwing over his shoulder.
    the scene didn't bother me exactly, but i didn't see it as all that funny.

    i don't like the rock falling near the caretakers after Rey cut it in half - i think it was funny enough that Rey did it by mistake.

    small nit-picks.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  17. tm9311

    tm9311 Clone Trooper

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Posts:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    52
    Credits:
    83
    Ratings:
    +62 / 0 / -0
    The Hux/Poe run in at the beginning, as said on a previous post, was funny on first viewing and got a laugh in the cinema. But the more I've seen the last Jedi the more it doesn't work and seems to destroy the credibility of one of the main villains in one exchange. I love the film but it seems to me that Hux represents the military arm of the First Order and, with Snoke and Phasma gone, is one of only 2 main villains left. So to make him into a character who can be poked fun at and is supposed to be viewed by us with amusement in my opinion doesn't work for the General of an organisation we are supposed to fear.

    The comedy moments in the rest of the film did work well on first viewing however don't raise much of a laugh when watching again and this can affect the flow of the film.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
    1030th Commander *** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    9,383
    Likes Received:
    109,451
    Trophy Points:
    170,067
    Credits:
    55,126
    Ratings:
    +124,475 / 65 / -7
    depends on your definition of fearful perhaps?
    if you're looking for another Palpatine or Darth Vader you'll likely be disappointed.

    Hux is indeed a "rabid cur" as Snoke describes him.
    in my estimation that makes him far more dangerous ~ especially now that he's been brought so low.

    he definitely could have treated the saber with contempt without it being a deliberately comedic moment. it works for me, but i get why other people are jarred by it. i don't really get the cries of "disrespecting the legacy" though. the saber is nothing. it's a weapon that murdered children. it's only "honor" lies in that Luke once wielded it and so i think it's entirely his right to do with it as he sees fit. XD

    really? do you think it's too mean for it to hit the wheelbarrow? or just overkill? i love this moment and how contemptuous the caretakers are of Rey. which she deserves, frankly, for calling them "things" ~ hahahahaha
     
    • Like Like x 4
  19. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Posts:
    527
    Likes Received:
    813
    Trophy Points:
    4,017
    Credits:
    1,353
    Ratings:
    +1,245 / 70 / -19
    TLJ took the greatest hero of our generation IMO and turned him completely pedestrian, He mopes around and takes action at the end, but not really. Yeah, it was a piss off for me.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    4,264
    Likes Received:
    20,319
    Trophy Points:
    147,167
    Credits:
    16,117
    Ratings:
    +26,747 / 117 / -89
    It doesn't make him pedestrian. It makes him human. Not the deity he had been built up as.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Wise Wise x 1
Loading...

Share This Page