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Rian Johnson's Trilogy

Discussion in 'Rian Johnson's New Trilogy' started by TheBBP, Jan 18, 2018.

  1. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I have to say that right now everything is decisive unless it is simple. Mandolorian so far is very simple story wise. Not really anything for people to get pissed one direction or another.

    In this regard I could see Disney/LFL going a much simpler more MCU route for next movies. Villians that are just that villians, not potential for redemption stories, heroes that are heroes that really dont show change of going dark. Romances that are simple and/or already established when you 1st meet the characters. Really avoid things where some fans set one expectation and other fans set another.
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Would be a terrible mistake.
    You can't out-Marvel Marvel.
    You need need to carve out your own things. Venom and Joker did their own thing and didn't try to do the Marvel thing and crushed it.

    Star Wars needs to be risky and bold. It needs to find it's own path.
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    The Last Jedi was super successful from a financial standpoint. There were no productions issues. There were no leaks. The film was adored by critics and audiences. The film was loved by new fans. Rian Johnson's next film was also a huge hit.

    Seems like a pretty easy business decision to me.
    Marvel didn't invent the wheel. Telling interconnected serial stories has been around forever. That's what helped inspire Star Wars. There's no reason why Star Wars can't tell smaller interconnected stories set in the same period. It helps Lucasfilm take risks and doesn't look them into this derivative 3 act story telling cycle. If a new character doesn't catch on with the public that's fine. Tell a story in a film. If people like it, make more.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Did I say don't make them interconnected? No.
    I said don't make them like Marvel movies, with what are essentially disposable villains outside maybe two of them.
    The MCU is great fun but Star Wars always had the upper hand in deeper storytelling. When someone says go more MCU (if you look at what @KeithF1138 was saying they MIGHT do) in that context, it's a bad idea. Star Wars needs to carve it's own path with deeper storytelling (myth, morality, etc) than what most MCU movies do. It's no shock that Winter Soldier (and really the whole Captain America arc) is still considered one of the best MCU films 6 years and 14 movies later, it comes the closest of telling a "Star Wars" style story.

    The MCU has a style and essentially what is a brand now. When you say make it "more MCU" that's what it means. Star Wars is already interconnected.
     
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    I agree with you up until the second half of Phase 3 (Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy as well, obviously). That's when I think the MCU kicked up it's storytelling some.
    The MCU works on a macro-level. Things might not look like they change much, but episode by episode, movie by movie, appearance by appearance, the characters DO grow, and it's fun to look back and see how far they've grown. Tony Stark in Endgame is a very, VERY different man than Tony Stark in Iron Man 1.

    AMEN TO THIS! I adore the MCU, but they really need to do more work on their villains. Recently most of their villains, even if they're only in one movie, have been pretty complex (the Spider-Man movies, for example, and Killmonger come to mind), but yeah...needs work.

    Also very true, and if the rumors about Doctor Strange 2 and the "creative differences" are anything to go by, that style isn't always good.

    ALL OF THAT SAID, part of me does wish to see more interconnection between the movies, shows, and comics. I'm not talking cameos, but references, and allusions, and speaking to other people. One of the best parts about Resistance is when Poe Dameron stopped by for an episode or two. Or Vader's cameo in the Star Wars comic and how interconnected they became. Or Vader's cameo in Jedi: Fallen Order. Or Vader's cameo in Rogue One. Or Vader's cameo in Rebels...I'm realizing that when Vader shows up, we as fans are in for a treat (even better when we don't see it coming). But it's fun when characters from different locations meet for a bit - the writers and directors of Cap 2 & 3 and Avengers 3 & 4 called it "strange alchemy." It's fun seeing Aphra meet Luke, Leia, and Han. It's fun having Ezra meet Lando.

    But none of these things have really gone to the big screen. Not really. Saw Gerrara was a happy circumstance (a good one that was worked in very well, granted), and the character at the end of Solo was more confusing than exciting for a lot of fans who hadn't watched TCW.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I understand the idea for more connectivity between Star Wars properties. But that is also a possible thing going forward, as Jedi: Fallen Order, Solo, The Mandalorian, and Rebels have set up some really interesting questions between them.

    What I DON'T want is something like "remember that time when we did the thing at X location?" Because that is just annoying.
     
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    Sorry for the mixup. The villain building in Marvel hasn't been great, but I think Lucasfilm could improve on what Sony has done with building villains.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    The storytelling is great in the MCU but it doesn't have the layers (IMO) that Star Wars was always known for. There's not really as much underlying messaging in a typical MCU movie (obvious exceptions exist) and that's fine. It isn't needed for something to be good.

    Killmonger, Tooms, Winter Soldier, Loki...that's how you write complex villains. Unfortunately, they often just forget that in the other movies and just use them as vessels for the heroes. Which, is fine and I find most of them to be "worth a watch" at worst. Even the worst of the MCU is still "fine" with only one flirting with "bad" IMO.

    I think they have more interconnection than the MCU does in the books/shows/comics. The MCU has nothing to do with the comics and has all but pretended the shows until the upcoming D+ shows haven't existed. Star Wars is way up on that. They have a lot but you can't have too much in the risk of limiting future story telling, personally, I would rather books/comics be seen as alternate realities and just let the films/live action shows be the only canon stuff. Allow for more creativity and broader storytelling.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2020 ---
    No worries. Just two people passionate about stuff butting heads. lol

    I think Lucasfilm has done an incredible job with villains under KK. With one glaring exception I won't bring up here because that's not the point.

    Krennic is a perfect level of foil for a standalone feature like R1. You get everything you need from him and a little extra. He's not so much a super Imperial or anything but do anything to get on top. I could have easily seen him as a Rebellion leader if he felt that was an easier way to the top.

    I don't think Voss is a great villain by any means but he's a solid facilitator for Han to discover some hard truths. Is the big villain of SOLO really Han's heroic nature and his desire to resist it?

    Kylo Ren is Maclunkey great. Most complex villain in a major blockbuster. Wish he got his shine at the end though. Snoke was a perfect foil and red herring in a series where we always expect the "master and apprentice" and "always a bigger fish" and womp...it's Kylo the whole time. Sort of.
     
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  8. Dynamixx88

    Dynamixx88 Rebel General

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    I am just getting afraid, that this simplification will one day lead to us watching just a farting ass on a screen, like in the movie Idiocracy.
    Marvel movies are fun and I like a lot of them even not being a huge Marvel fan (I am reading DC since being a kid more, except for Spider-man and wathcing some marvel shows back in the day), but frankly they are just simple fun and after watching lot of them in quick succession, it overwhelms you and it gets boring. But, of course as a cinema, it works is this kind of annual festival thing you like to visit, as you know what you'll get.
    If they wanna have succesfull cashcow, then of course, simplify the Star Wars, going Jedi and some ragtag hero group against the evil Sith, lightsaber fight, spacefight, pepper it with some inovation and voila! You can hurl Star Wars films like Marvel.

    But even tough, Last Jedi is not a perfect film, but technically and visually (except for porgs being kinda wonky) it looked beautyful and I was leaving cinema in WOW effect, because I avoided spoilers and haven't seen the twists coming. It was pretty enjoyable movie and I saw it on premiere with a casual movie goer that haven't like Star Wars much and told me, that it was enjoyable movie.
    J. J. Abrams, tough being a great filmmaker, did one rehash Episode, which I can get behind as it is after 30 years of OT and introductory and one damage control Episode, that I have enjoyed for being Star Wars but man, it felt rushed and sometimes little dumb when you look at it in greater scope with lazy designs. I have enjoyed Episode IX except for the last battle, when the ships were far away shots of masses of reused assets and things just being there, flying everywhere and it simply wasn't memorable at all.
    In the end, TLJ was probably divisive, but in my opinion the best Sequel Trilogy episode made and only episode, I remeber scenes from visually for being stunning - to name few the opening scene after crawl, Dreadnought coming in and Poe's flying, Supremacy! Kylo Ren's TIE Silencer and that spinning trailer shot, The Praetorian fight and more... I remember being on Episode IX and thinking: ''Oh, it is just A New Hope Star Destroyer with Maclunkey cannon... I think wow I guess''
    Give Rian Johnson the freedom of working with original characters and Doug Chiang making new designs not being rehashes of TIEs and Star Destroyers or revamped art of McQuarrie and I can see him do a great movie.
     
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  9. Matt_T

    Matt_T Rebelscum

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    TLJ was adored by critics and audiences? It was? I'll give you the critics on that, but its 43 on Rotten Tomatoes audience score begs to differ. As do many threads on this very website. Anyway, I noted that the production/quality was fine but reaction to the movie so split the fandom that it is still trying to recover. Disney/LFL don't need more divisiveness. RJ helming another SW flick would create it right out of the gate.
     
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  10. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    Ah, I understand your confusion. The Rotten Tomatoes admitted that score was manipulated and even changed how the do their audience score. Every real audience survey that was conducted scientific shows 85%+ people liked the film. There's a very real, very tiny, very vocal minority that hates the film and they're super active online. It's best not to get carried away by what people are saying on the internet. It's not very representative of the general public.
    Fun sales for sure. It seems like Lucasfilm is likely to move more towards the fun direction than taking risks like DC took with Joker. Who can blame Disney though? The some of the Star Wars fan base acts like entitled babies when they don't get what they want. The internet just feeds this group.
     
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  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Beware of the RT score for TLJ. TLJ setoff a flurry of activity at RT that caused RT to ultimately lock down audience scores to only people that can proof they bought a ticket. 1st they changed it late in TLJ run, then again before Black Panther release, then again before Solo release, then again before Captain Marvel release and finally required proof of ticket for Aladdin release. Notice that the changes occurred with releases of big tent-pole films that were bound to bring out a certain group of people. They also changed with Captain Marvel that no audience reviews counted before movie general release. Imagine that you could review a movie before it was released.
     
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  12. Dynamixx88

    Dynamixx88 Rebel General

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    I don't know about the fans and can't speak for them, but it is crazy nowadays. Everyone hates everything... It is like back in the days at the beginning of the discussion forums, where we teenagers were assholes, being moderated by adults who told us to grow up... nowadays everyone is this teenage ass.
    I am not sure that fans can be generally pleased with anything, unless you make this Best Of Star Wars like Mandalorian, which has NOT Boba Fett, NOT Yoda, NOT IG-88, tons of fan service but almost no plot. I liked Mandalorian, don't get me wrong, growing up in 90s I appreciate all this stuff we have.
    But as you start to take chances, fans hate it with passion. I still don't know if it was damage control or natural sequel, but I have the feeling that fan backlash damaged TROS. Before it was ''We can't fulfill fan fantasies and abandon creativity and filmmaking for fan-fiction'' but TROS felt like ''We can't take it anymore, we care about you, here take this it has everything - Palpatine! Old school Star Destroyers! Planet destructions! Asset mess with force lightning! Shots of OT planets! I liked TROS but it felt little forced and rushed at the same time and tough I like it as a film, the designs were kinda lazy.
     
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  13. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel Commander

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    I'm not sure I agree that a movie like Argo is more complicated to write.

    You don't have to actually come up with the story, you are just punching up reality and giving some dramatic focus.

    I'm not pooh pooing, Argo is excellent but I think the creative work in construction of a fantasy epic is being undersold and underestimated.
     
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  14. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    My thoughts on such real and imagined communities.
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  15. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    I am going to be stunned if Rian Johnson's project (whatever it was) ever happens. It's not because of some supposed backlash. It's just a reasonable guess based on Rian Johnson's star rising, Lucasfilm trying to figure out what it wants to do, and all the turnover on director projects. Rian Johnson is coming off a smash hit with Knives Out and he's already working on another mystery film with Craig. Rian his producer friend Ram started a new production company T-Street. After finishing a second mystery film will Johnson even want to go back to Star Wars? Seems like he'll be looking for something new to do. Plus, we don't even know what Lucasfilm is doing in December 2022. That film seems unlikely to happen on time since we know zero about it.

    After Rogue One, Lucasfilm felt like they could do no wrong so they announced too many projects. The problems with Solo and and rapid production schedule for the ST has finally put the breaks on... which is good. Lucasfilm needs to figure out what they're doing. I just don't see where Rian Johnson fits since he's not involved in this next film project. The idea of launching two different series in two different periods sounds like marketing suicide to me. The next series needs to start laying the groundwork for the future.
     
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  16. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I tried to say this (probably quite poorly back then) but I think it's a combo of things. The backlash, however big it is or isn't, the fact that the ST was undoubtably rushed and poorly planned out... the constant production problems and the fact that they announce things hilly nilly. As you mention, they had WAY too many projects. And too many of them seem to indicate that they are continuing down this road of just throwing as much crap on the wall as they can and seeing what sticks.

    And while I don't like TLJ, I will say, if I'm Rian Johnson, why would I want to do a Star Wars film again? Been there, done that. Scratched that itch, if there was ever an itch to do one. Forget the backlash, but why would I (RJ) want to step into this situation where it looks like they don't know what the heck they are doing? You have what, 3 series at some sort of stage of production between The Mandalorian (Post ROTJ), Cassian Andor (Post Revenge of the Sith), Obi Wan (Post ROTS as well) and then god knows what... Books set 200 years prior and a film (or films) that may or may not be happening and may, or may not, be set in this time or that time... If I'm Rian Johnson I'm thinking yeah, I wanna just do my own thing. If I delve back into the sci-fi genre I'd rather do my thing ( Looper was a darn good film in my opinion).

    Sorry for the long rant. I've been trying to stay off the 'net in all of this pandemic and just needed to blow a bit o steam. :D
     
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  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    That's also how I felt. That being said, maybe this is all a good thing for the trilogy.
    Once everything settles down (or ramps up? I'm not sure how to correctly phrase this for the context required) in a year or two, Rian Johnson can come back to Lucasfilm looking like a hero to save Star Wars movies (because TV has TCW and Mando). Ideally he'd have two mystery movie hits under his belt, and I believe time will be kinder to TLJ than we have been. TLJ haters may not WANT him back, but if the sequel to Knives Out is as good as the original, they can't claim he's a hack or talent-less. (Also I'm not a fan of Looper but I like that people like it!) ...assuming he wants to come back (which I think he does, but who knows how he'll feel in a year or two).
     
  18. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    No one with a shred of credibility can claim that now. Everything he's done has been critically acclaimed except Brothers Bloom (which might be my favorite RJ film). RJ's got a pretty impressive resume regardless of how the next Benoit Blanc flim turns out.
     
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  19. Xeven

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    I do not like RJ’s take on SW. I will see his movies but will see them on my TV.
     
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  20. Darth Wardawg

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    The one thing I hate about the claim "talentless" is that it REALLY is all in the eye of the beholder. And while I might vehemently disagree with Rian Johnson's take on Star Wars, I for one, would never say he is talentless.

    You know, that's what I hate about hyperbole. So many people seem to throw adjectives around like "he's great" "he's a hack". And I'm not just meaning with Rian. As for Rian, I think he has taken, no doubt. I've said it a million times, I love Looper. I liked his directing of Breaking Bad. I think he is a good director and can write when it is his own stuff.

    I don't really know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just going stir crazy with this quarantine stuff. LOL
     
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