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Rogue One ending a mess

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by Canadian Ronin, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel General

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    Nevertheless, they're not canon anymore - just like many of my favorite stories about Quinlan Vos from the Republic comics. But that's just the way it is and we have to respect the new system. That was my point.
     
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  2. stencil

    stencil Rebel General

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    I don't want to start arguing minutiae but I will say that I agree that Rogue One's ending felt like a mess to me. In order to make the dialog in ANH jive with what happened in Rogue One I have to do mental backflips. It would have made so much more sense for Vader to say "Give me the data carrier. I watched you bring it into this ship!" It just makes A New Hope less enjoyable to me. Easier for me to pretend Rogue One never happened.

    I'm glad many people loved Rogue One, but I didn't. Seems there are many others who felt like I did.

    As always, remember that we can disagree without having to take personal offense to those who disagree with us.
     
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  3. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    Thank goodness, I doesn't affect my ANH enjoyment. Good thing remains that at least what made it into the final film is so ambiguous, that I can easily live believing we saw two Rebel Blockade Runners (don't tell me the Star Destroyer Vader arrived didn't immediately pursue and ultimately destroy the Blockade Runner leaving Raddus' Profundity).

    Apparently the communications officer of the first Blockade Runner made the mistake of calling Leia's Tantive IV by name ("Tantive IV, did you receive?"), thus Vader knew the plans had been transmitted to Leia's ship (but couldn't proof that Leia had actually received these, which was the whole point early on in ANH). ;)
     
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  4. JeffG.

    JeffG. Ewok Hunter
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    There were 2 Blockade Runners? Where was the other? I remember just seeing one.
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    Just going by the film itself we see one Blockade Runner leaving the Profundity. Next we see a Blockade Runner corridor inside the Tantive IV with the data carrier handed over to Princess Leia and then that Blockade Runner jumps into hyperspace. Nothing in the footage mandatory insists both are the same.

    rogue-one-movie-screencaps_com-14914.jpg

    As a matter of fact, the Rogue One Blockade Runner leaving the Profundity has all of its 4 starboard life pods (above). The actual ANH VFX model of the Tantive IV (and its reuse in ROJ) always had one lifepod missing on the starboard side:

    RBR 1977 starboard side.jpg

    But more important than this tiny detail is the obvious difference of the ship's hammerhead section. The hammerhead of the Rebel Blockade Runner leaving the Profundity is factory new with paint job and everything else in pristine condition. In contrast the hammerhead of the Tantive IV reveals stress marks that are hard to overlook, the paint at the hammerhead edges is almost gone in these images of the VFX model taken during the actual ANH production:

    Rebel Blockade Runner 1977 front view 42p.jpg

    Rebel Blockade Runner 1977 front view port side.jpg
     
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  6. JeffG.

    JeffG. Ewok Hunter
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  7. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I think the ending was way too rushed. But I get it. They were trying to tie up lose ends and have Leia there. I think Leia's ship was heavily damaged which is why it was docked though. Also, I think they were trying to explain why Leia said she was on a "diplomatic" mission
     
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  8. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel General

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    I think ANH makes even more sense after watching the ending of Rogue One. As others already have pointed out, there were two blockade runners.

    And then....

    - The soldiers onboard Tantive IV in ANH look terrified before the ship gets boarded. Why so terrified? Because some of their friends got slashed by Vader earlier.

    - When Vader confronts Leia, and Leia says "I'm on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan" of course Leia was lying. Vader knew it but couldn't prove it, that's why he says "You're part of a rebel alliance and a traitor!". Makes sense.

    - Later, when Vader & co. realizes that she must have hidden the plans in the escape pod, Vader says "There will be noone to stop us this time", retroactively referring to the events in Rogue One.
     
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  9. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    I don't want to sound condescending, but that's your imagination. All the Alderaan Guards look grim and determined because it's their job to protect the life and diplomatic immunity of the princess, even at the expense of their own lives:

    star-wars4-movie-screencaps_com-186.jpg

    star-wars4-movie-screencaps_com-198.jpg

    star-wars4-movie-screencaps_com-197.jpg

    It also makes sense within the original context and bearing the prologue text in mind. The "diplomatic mission" highlights that Vader has just violated her diplomatic immunity, something his lieutenant reminds him of a few moments later. Vader can't prove anything, hence he resorts to claims and accusations because he can't prove anything, not even a visual record of 'her' ship escaping from the Profundity... :rolleyes:

    No, in the screenplay from March 1976 he said "There will be no one to save them now", so the original context in both the March 1976 version and the shooting script from April 1976 you quoted rather indicated that the Imperial Senate to be that "no one [in the senate]" (Besides, who "stopped" them in Rogue One? - No one, they were just too late :p)
     

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  10. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel General

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    You know what? That could be your imagination as well. Of course they are doing their job, otherwise they wouldn't be there waiting for the ambush. Don't wanna sound rude, but you do understand it's possible to be both terrified and determined at the same time, right? :p

    Even if it's just a movie, we can never know for sure what's going on in the minds of all the characters - especially the ones who do not speak at all. If we take an example of the prequels referenced in ANH, when Obi-Wan says "He betrayed and murdered your father", before the prequels came out we didn't imagine Obi-Wan thinking about Anakin's burning body at Mustafar. But now, we can, because you can read it from Obi-Wan's facial expressions.

    I didn't say it didn't make sense before, in my original post I simply said that now it makes even more sense. There's a difference. :rolleyes:

    Again, who cares about what's in the screenplay when it's what's in the actual movie that makes sense in the context?
     
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  11. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Knows Nothing
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    Is she though? Earlier in Rogue One we saw Mon Mothma talking to Bail Organa about "his Jedi friend" and how they need to send someone they trust to make contact with the Jedi. Bail says, "I trust her with my life." referring of course to Leia. So, Leia is on this diplomatic mission, yes (ultimately, it ends on Alderaan when she delivers Kenobi to her step-father. Tatooine is but a pit stop along the way... ;)) but she conveniently left out that part about how they frantically received a small bit of "hope" just hours (minutes?) previously. In my opinion, she gave the perfect political answer. :p

    And, to comment on this thread as a whole, if everything in the ending seems like a mess, it's because it was. It was chaos on chaos, and everyone was just reacting to the latest developments. I think the film did an excellent job of showing that thematically. It's really just one long journey of "Uh, damn, what do we do now?" ultimately ending with their goal being accomplished, even if they did meet their demise before they realized they succeeded.

    So, the way things were planned:
    • The Tantive IV was docked with the Profundity receiving repairs / being made ready for this "diplomatic mission" between Leia and Kenobi.
    • The Tantive IV was not supposed to be anywhere near Scarif or that battle.
    • For that matter, there wasn't even supposed to be a battle; it was planned as a somewhat covert smash and grab job.
    The way things happened:
    • Raddus hears that a rogue crew is making a play for the Death Star plans on Scarif. He (defiantly) scambles his fleet to lend his support.
    • The Tantive IV, still docked with the Profundity, is dragged into battle.
    • The plans get beamed to the Profundity and in a last ditch effort to preserve them, they are downloaded and rushed to the nearest vessel capable of escaping, being the Tantive IV.
    And if you ask me, any "suspect" dialogue in the early bits of ANH can also be pretty easily explained.
    • IMPERIAL OFFICER: The Death Star plans are not in the main computer. -- Nope, they never were. They were on that "disk."
    • VADER: Where are those transmissions you intercepted? -- Not "you" personally, you collectively; the rebels in general, and the Profundity specifically.
    • REBEL OFFICER: We intercepted no transmissions. Aaah... This is a consular ship. We're on a diplomatic mission. -- Technically truths. Leia would be proud.
    • VADER: Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you. -- This is probably the "sloppiest" but you can look at it two different ways: 1) Did Vader ever see the rebels were passing off the plans, or was he just wildly tearing down anyone who got in his way? From his reasoning, if the plans were beamed to the Profundity they could have in turn been beamed to the Tantive IV, right? or it's as simple as 2) He misspoke when he said "this ship." Yeah I know it's a cop out, but being mostly machine aside, he is still human. Essentially, he is guessing at how the plans made it to the Tantive IV and it really doesn't matter how, but he *does* know that they have them.
    TL;DR
    I don't think Rogue One is sloppy, but instead it was very carefully orchestrated to fit seamlessly into the beginning of A New Hope. I've always loved ANH, and after RO I love it even more. It built it up in an epic way and was a great launching pad for the events of the OT.
     
    #31 DarthSnow, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Yeah, from the moment Vader's Star Destroyer arrives, Raddus's plan is completely awry.

    Honestly, the plan was almost surely for the Profundity to take the plans itself, being the flagship and probably the most capable of holding out in combat. The frantic scenes in the end show how the Alliance was scrambling to the finish line, getting the plans out by any means necessary. As it turns out, the Tantive IV just so happened to be the closest ship.

    With the troopers- well, I think we all know here the meta-truth of this all, that the events of Rogue One aren't exactly what Lucas had in mind when he filmed the OT's opening. Nor do, as far as I know, we have any idea really what Lucas had originally intended to have preceded that scene (we got EU stuff later, but I'm talking specifically during filming).

    Once again, like the Tantive IV, or really any other perceived plot hole, though, it ultimately comes down to whether or not you want to allow a suspension of disbelief. No matter what was going through the minds of the actors who portray the troopers that day during filming, their expressions could gel with any of the explanations, really.

    What we do know is what the movie tells us- the large Star Destroyer pursuing the small corvette perfectly sums up the Galactic Civil War symbolically- a small rebel group going up against an insurmountable Empire. That's reason enough for the troopers to look terrified. If they're also worried about the large space samurai who just killed many of their friends in a frantic hallway fight- well, that makes sense too.
     
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  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    The most prominent guard whose reaction we can follow step-by-step in ANH is the Steve McQueen lookalike (i.e. the guard with the grey hair).
    He doesn't look remotely "terrified". Besides, are you suggesting that all the other defenders of Leia stood in the corridor to watch what Vader was doing or assembled around a monitor? At best there were a few eye-witnesses.

    Sorry, but that is your imagination for one simple reason: When Lucas shot these ANH scenes, Kenobi, Luke's father and Darth Vader were still three distinct physical human beings which he openly admitted in his Rolling Stone interview following the premiere of ANH.
    That was the original context and premise. In hindsight and retroactively you are reading something there that simply didn't exist in 1976 when these Scenes were shot.

    Where is there now "more" sense? The original context (the Alliance capturing the plans during a raid on the Imperial shipyards and transmitting these to Leia's ship) didn't require the amount of double-guessing, (over-)rationalizations or 'exotic' interpretations to make the Rogue One ending compatible with the opening events in ANH. :confused:

    If there really were "more" sense we wouldn't be here discussing it.

    It seems we do agree but for completely different reasons.

    I do see a Corellian Corvette escaping with a brand new hammerhead telling me that can't be the Tantive IV (unless someone seriously suggests that upon exiting hyperspace later they activated an exotic paint-strip mechanism to pretend to be another ship, that would be over-rationalization in my book).

    I do see Leia waiting for the hyperspace jump until she holds the data carrier in her own hands. Unless she was at the edge of the "restricted" Scarif system - where she received the transmission from the aforementioned Corellian Corvette - and at a safe distance from the battlezone she didn't have the luxury to wait that tong (because the moment the airlock shut on the first Corellian Corvette there was nothing left to really wait for).

    It still looks to me as if they realized late (but not too late) that there were too many things not really matching ANH - but still managed to keep the ending of Rogue One sufficiently ambiguous to allow interpretations that ensure continuity rather than to violate it.
     
  14. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    This is an awesome thread.....thanks for everyone's thoughts. I am a huge R1 fan....thought the ending fit pretty smoothly into ANH. Just Leia's overly chubby cheeks were kind of jarring....
     
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  15. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    No they weren't ... just seein' her ....made....Me ...Cry ('fer She Even Spoke).
    ....Yep.
    It Did.
     
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  16. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    How moving....lol
     
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  17. Sith_Lord_Ren

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    The Darth Vader ending scene was bad-ass!! Really got my adrenaline running. Seeing him mow down rebel troopers with relative ease... like corn plants !!!
     
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